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Old
02-13-2013, 11:22 PM
  #151
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What a total utter ****ing disappointment this season is turning out to be.

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02-13-2013, 11:28 PM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agent2421 View Post
Well it seems like Murray was not pleased with there performance.... from that tweet in the other thread. I full expect Murray to get his revenge in the next game... he doesn't back down for fights and Sens are used to brawls (Ottawa vs Philly) (Ottawa vs Buffalo) (Ottawa Vs Kings)... I don't care, get a few suspensions, get some fines, beat the **** out of cooke/others. We can't make Karlsson come back but it will make us feel better.
What tweet are you referring to?

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02-24-2013, 03:50 PM
  #153
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IMO the game against the leafs was a bit of an indication that we could use a bit more sand paper in the lineup. In yesterdays game we were out hit 41 to 29 and the leafs took a few runs at some of our more skilled players (well the skilled players we have left). We could have been potentially out hit by a larger margin if Colton Orr had been in the lineup as well.

I do have to commend the Senators for their grit and tenacity. Even though they were out played physically in the first period, they battled back in the second and third and managed to not only bring some of the physicality back to the leafs but also grind out a win.

The primary concern I have though is that if the Senators are faced with playing a few physical teams in a row or playing a physical team in the playoffs (if they manage to make it there) they might wear out if they aren't able to return that same level of physicality to the opposition.

Another interesting fact regarding the Senators overall physicality is that they are a much more physical team at home then on the road. So far this season they are ranked 3rd overall with 293 home hits, while being ranked 21st overall with 163 road hits.

The following is the Senators ranking in hit leaders:
1. Chris Neil 19 gp, 64 h
2. Marc Methot 19 gp, 53 h
3. Colin Greening 18 gp, 45 h
4. Zack Smith 19 gp, 33 h
5. Chris Phillips 19 gp, 32 h
6. Mark Boroweicki 6 gp, 26 h (in Binghamton)
7. Mika Zibanejad 13 gp, 26 h
8. Jim O'Brien 16 gp, 19 h
9 David Dziurzynski 5 gp, 16 h
10. Guillaume Lattendresse 6 gp, 16 h (injured)
11. Andre Benoit 15 gp, 15 h
12. Kyle Turris 19 gp, 15 h
13. Eric Gryba 5 gp, 12 h
14. Daniel Alfredsson 18 gp, 11 h
15. Kaspars Daugavins 12 gp, 11 h
16. Erik Karlsson 14 gp, 10 h (injured)
17. Jakob Silfverberg 19 gp, 9 h
18. Patrick Wiercioch 15 gp, 9 h
19. Stephane Da Costa 9 gp, 8 h (in Binghamton)
20. Derek Grant 5 gp, 8 h
21. Sergei Gonchar 16 gp, 5 h
22. Peter Regin 12 gp, 5 h (injured)
23. Erik Condra 19 gp, 4 h
24. Mike Lundin 6 gp, 2 h
25. Milan Michalek 13 gp, 2 h (injured)
26. Jason Spezza 5 gp, 0 h (injured)


It is a bit surprising that Borowiecki is still 6th on that list even though he has only played 6 games. Ideally we would be able to get a bit more physicality of one of our bottom six forwards like O'Brien, Daugavins, Condra or Grant. Unfortunately it isn't in the nature of any of those players to be very physical and that might create a need to acquire a bottom six forward.

Obviously improving the offence is a much higher priority than improving the physicality/toughness, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a need to improve the latter category.

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02-24-2013, 04:01 PM
  #154
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Sens just beat the "toughest team in the NHL" with AHLers and Skill. Toughness is not needed.

Also, hits =/= toughness.

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02-24-2013, 04:05 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Sens just beat the "toughest team in the NHL" with AHLers and Skill. Toughness is not needed.

Also, hits =/= toughness.
Well they were outplayed physically and the primary concern is whether they would be able to sustainably win if they were out played physically for a succession of games.

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02-24-2013, 04:14 PM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
Well they were outplayed physically and the primary concern is whether they would be able to sustainably win if they were out played physically for a succession of games.
Leafs are one of the tougher teams in the league this year. I wonder if the Hawks could up with the Leafs.

EDIT: Lulz I checked, Sens are 5th in hitting, the Hawks are last.

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02-24-2013, 04:17 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
Well they were outplayed physically and the primary concern is whether they would be able to sustainably win if they were out played physically for a succession of games.
Sens can keep getting outplayed physically if it means they out play, overall, the other team.

Sens do not need toughness or physicality to win. Sens play a skilled possession game, which involves smart positioning(always finishing a hit just takes yourself out of the play), and its clearly working. There is a good mix of physical and skilled players right now.

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02-24-2013, 04:19 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
Leafs are one of the tougher teams in the league this year. I wonder if the Hawks could up with the Leafs.

EDIT: Lulz I checked, Sens are 5th in hitting, the Hawks are last.
Well for one we don't have the skill level of the Hawks, so that isn't really a fair comparison.

If the Senators want to win with their depleted lineup, they will be required to play a hard hitting grinding game. MacLean has employed that style the last few games and the Senators have been fairly successful. Therefore having players in the lineup that are conducive to that playing style could potentially lead to more wins.

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02-24-2013, 04:23 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Sens can keep getting outplayed physically if it means they out play, overall, the other team.

Sens do not need toughness or physicality to win. Sens play a skilled possession game, which involves smart positioning(always finishing a hit just takes yourself out of the play), and its clearly working. There is a good mix of physical and skilled players right now.
More physicality is conducive with the style of play the Senators need to employ to win games with their depleted lineup. We are currently playing that style, we could simply use another player or two that are more consistently physical.

For the most part all I am advocating is acquiring a player that could replace someone like Daugavins against the more physical teams.

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02-24-2013, 04:53 PM
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
More physicality is conducive with the style of play the Senators need to employ to win games with their depleted lineup. We are currently playing that style, we could simply use another player or two that are more consistently physical.

For the most part all I am advocating is acquiring a player that could replace someone like Daugavins against the more physical teams.
Understood, but K-Daug himself is just a bench warmer for players on IR. The acquisition will have to be replacing one of Latendresse or Regin - and in Paul Maclean's system these players can provide potential dividends far greater than Jean-Guy Ledouce (or whatever his name is).

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02-24-2013, 04:58 PM
  #161
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IMO Murray is slowly building a big tough skilled team & we are seeing that as a number of players that some here thought would never play in Ottawa are showing they are closer to NHL ready than most here thought. DD, JOB, Grant & Gryba are good examples of guys with good size that bring some skill, good two way play, defensive abilities, difficult to play against & toughness. Soon Stone, Ceci & Noesen will be NHL ready & they too bring size & skill. While we don't have a true enforcer per say, we do have a big team that is hard to play against & won't back down or quit under any circumstance. Murray deserves a lot of credit for that.


Last edited by aragorn: 02-24-2013 at 05:05 PM.
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02-24-2013, 05:01 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by armani View Post
Understood, but K-Daug himself is just a bench warmer for players on IR. The acquisition will have to be replacing one of Latendresse or Regin - and in Paul Maclean's system these players can provide potential dividends far greater than Jean-Guy Ledouce (or whatever his name is).
Well there is also a concern as to whether Latendresse and/or Regin would be able to remain healthy after a game like the one last night.

And if we are acquiring a physical player it doesn't simply have to be a utility 4th line forward. The Senators could target Cal Clutterbuck or Derek Dorsett or Devante Smith Pelly.

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02-24-2013, 05:01 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armani View Post
Understood, but K-Daug himself is just a bench warmer for players on IR. The acquisition will have to be replacing one of Latendresse or Regin - and in Paul Maclean's system these players can provide potential dividends far greater than Jean-Guy Ledouce (or whatever his name is).
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02-24-2013, 05:03 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by aragorn View Post
IMO Murray is slowly building a big tough skilled team & we are seeing that as a number of players some here never would play in Ottawa are showing they are closer to NHL ready than most here thought. DD, JOB, Grant & Gryba are good examples of guys with good size that bring some skill, good two way play, defensive abilities, difficult to play against & toughness. Soon Stone, Ceci & Noesen will be NHL ready & they too bring size & skill. While we don't have a true enforcer per say, we do have a big team that is hard to play against & won't back down or quit under any circumstance. Murray deserves a lot of credit for that.
You probably have to give more credit to Tim Murray and Pierre Dorion than Bryan Murray. Pierre is responsible or targeting those players in the draft and Tim is a big advocate of having a tough team.

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02-24-2013, 05:19 PM
  #165
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last year i saw a stat that someone had compiled that had us as one of the tallest and heaviest teams in the league.

Somehow i thin we are even bigger this year

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02-24-2013, 05:27 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by nanuuq View Post
last year i saw a stat that someone had compiled that had us as one of the tallest and heaviest teams in the league.

Somehow i thin we are even bigger this year
Bryan Murray's influence

all 3 goals last night were because players were willing to win a battle and drive to the net for the puck.

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02-24-2013, 05:30 PM
  #167
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toughness does not equate to fights/penalties

We are doint well on the line to a tough team.

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02-24-2013, 06:10 PM
  #168
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There is quite an array of physical players that could be acquired at a variety of costs. The following is a breakdown of those players categorized into an assumed acquisition cost category.

Low Cost
Harry Zolniercyzk
LW Philadelphia Flyers , 25 yrs old, Cap hit $600,000, RFA 2013

Pierre Cedric Labrie
LW Tampa Bay Lighting, 26 yrs old, Cap hit $525,000, UFA 2013

Ben Eager
RW Edmonton Oilers, 29 yrs old, Cap hit $1,100,000, UFA 2014

Jared Boll
RW Columbus Blue Jackets, 26 yrs old, Cap hit $1,050,000, UFA 2014

Daniel Carcillo
LW Chicago BlackHawks, 28 yrs old, Cap hit $825,000, UFA 2014



Moderate Cost

Kyle Clifford
LW LA Kings, 22 yrs old, Cap hit $870,000, RFA 2013

Jordan Nolan
C LA Kings, 23 yrs old, Cap hit $531,667, RFA 2013

Dwight King
LW LA Kings, 23 yrs old, Cap hit $750,000, RFA 2014

Ryan Jones
RW Edmonton Oilers, 28 yrs old, Cap hit $1,500,000, UFA 2013

Andrew Shaw
C Chicago BlackHawks, 21 yrs old, Cap hit $565,000, RFA 2014

Kyle Beach
LW Chicago BlackHawks, 23 yrs old, Cap hit $1,170,833, RFA 2013




High Cost

Wayne Simmonds
RW Philadelphia Flyers, 24 yrs old, Cap hit $3,975,000, UFA 2019

Scott Hartnell
LW Philadelphia Flyers, 30 yrs old, Cap Hit $4,750,000, UFA 2019

Troy Brouwer
LW Washington Captials, 27 yrs old, Cap hit $366,666,667, UFA 2016

Chris Stewart
RW St Louis Blues, 25 yrs old, Cap hit $3,000,000, RFA 2013

Cal Clutterbuck
RW Minnesota Wild, 25 yrs old, Cap hit $1,400,000, RFA 2013

Derek Dorsett
RW Columbus Blue Jackets, 26 yrs old, Cap hit $1,633,333, UFA 2015

Curtiss Glencross
LW Calgary Flames, 30 yrs old, Cap hit $2,550,000, UFA 2015

Devante Smith-Pelly
RW Anaheim Ducks, 20 yrs old, Cap hit $870,000, RFA 2014

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02-24-2013, 06:22 PM
  #169
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Shaw and Clifford should be under high cost. Anyone in the low cost will make the team worse.

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02-24-2013, 06:40 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
You probably have to give more credit to Tim Murray and Pierre Dorion than Bryan Murray. Pierre is responsible or targeting those players in the draft and Tim is a big advocate of having a tough team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
There is quite an array of physical players that could be acquired at a variety of costs. The following is a breakdown of those players categorized into an assumed acquisition cost category.

Low Cost
Harry Zolniercyzk
LW Philadelphia Flyers , 25 yrs old, Cap hit $600,000, RFA 2013

Pierre Cedric Labrie
LW Tampa Bay Lighting, 26 yrs old, Cap hit $525,000, UFA 2013

Ben Eager
RW Edmonton Oilers, 29 yrs old, Cap hit $1,100,000, UFA 2014

Jared Boll
RW Columbus Blue Jackets, 26 yrs old, Cap hit $1,050,000, UFA 2014

Daniel Carcillo
LW Chicago BlackHawks, 28 yrs old, Cap hit $825,000, UFA 2014



Moderate Cost

Kyle Clifford
LW LA Kings, 22 yrs old, Cap hit $870,000, RFA 2013

Jordan Nolan
C LA Kings, 23 yrs old, Cap hit $531,667, RFA 2013

Dwight King
LW LA Kings, 23 yrs old, Cap hit $750,000, RFA 2014

Ryan Jones
RW Edmonton Oilers, 28 yrs old, Cap hit $1,500,000, UFA 2013

Andrew Shaw
C Chicago BlackHawks, 21 yrs old, Cap hit $565,000, RFA 2014

Kyle Beach
LW Chicago BlackHawks, 23 yrs old, Cap hit $1,170,833, RFA 2013




High Cost

Wayne Simmonds
RW Philadelphia Flyers, 24 yrs old, Cap hit $3,975,000, UFA 2019

Scott Hartnell
LW Philadelphia Flyers, 30 yrs old, Cap Hit $4,750,000, UFA 2019

Troy Brouwer
LW Washington Captials, 27 yrs old, Cap hit $366,666,667, UFA 2016

Chris Stewart
RW St Louis Blues, 25 yrs old, Cap hit $3,000,000, RFA 2013

Cal Clutterbuck
RW Minnesota Wild, 25 yrs old, Cap hit $1,400,000, RFA 2013

Derek Dorsett
RW Columbus Blue Jackets, 26 yrs old, Cap hit $1,633,333, UFA 2015

Curtiss Glencross
LW Calgary Flames, 30 yrs old, Cap hit $2,550,000, UFA 2015

Devante Smith-Pelly
RW Anaheim Ducks, 20 yrs old, Cap hit $870,000, RFA 2014
Look I like Troy Brower as much as the next guy but there is no way he is worth $366 mil

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02-24-2013, 06:41 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Shaw and Clifford should be under high cost. Anyone in the low cost will make the team worse.
Interesting. What is it that makes Shaw and Clifford's value so high?

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02-24-2013, 06:48 PM
  #172
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Interesting. What is it that makes Shaw and Clifford's value so high?
Age + good + potential. Both could become 2nd liners and are solid 3rd liners right now.

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02-24-2013, 06:55 PM
  #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
There is quite an array of physical players that could be acquired at a variety of costs. The following is a breakdown of those players categorized into an assumed acquisition cost category.

Low Cost
Harry Zolniercyzk
LW Philadelphia Flyers , 25 yrs old, Cap hit $600,000, RFA 2013

Pierre Cedric Labrie
LW Tampa Bay Lighting, 26 yrs old, Cap hit $525,000, UFA 2013

Ben Eager
RW Edmonton Oilers, 29 yrs old, Cap hit $1,100,000, UFA 2014

Jared Boll
RW Columbus Blue Jackets, 26 yrs old, Cap hit $1,050,000, UFA 2014

Daniel Carcillo
LW Chicago BlackHawks, 28 yrs old, Cap hit $825,000, UFA 2014



Moderate Cost

Kyle Clifford
LW LA Kings, 22 yrs old, Cap hit $870,000, RFA 2013

Jordan Nolan
C LA Kings, 23 yrs old, Cap hit $531,667, RFA 2013

Dwight King
LW LA Kings, 23 yrs old, Cap hit $750,000, RFA 2014

Ryan Jones
RW Edmonton Oilers, 28 yrs old, Cap hit $1,500,000, UFA 2013

Andrew Shaw
C Chicago BlackHawks, 21 yrs old, Cap hit $565,000, RFA 2014

Kyle Beach
LW Chicago BlackHawks, 23 yrs old, Cap hit $1,170,833, RFA 2013




High Cost

Wayne Simmonds
RW Philadelphia Flyers, 24 yrs old, Cap hit $3,975,000, UFA 2019

Scott Hartnell
LW Philadelphia Flyers, 30 yrs old, Cap Hit $4,750,000, UFA 2019

Troy Brouwer
LW Washington Captials, 27 yrs old, Cap hit $366,666,667, UFA 2016

Chris Stewart
RW St Louis Blues, 25 yrs old, Cap hit $3,000,000, RFA 2013

Cal Clutterbuck
RW Minnesota Wild, 25 yrs old, Cap hit $1,400,000, RFA 2013

Derek Dorsett
RW Columbus Blue Jackets, 26 yrs old, Cap hit $1,633,333, UFA 2015

Curtiss Glencross
LW Calgary Flames, 30 yrs old, Cap hit $2,550,000, UFA 2015

Devante Smith-Pelly
RW Anaheim Ducks, 20 yrs old, Cap hit $870,000, RFA 2014
The thing is, we're already a tough team. We're already doing all the things that "tough" teams do to win games: we're good at digging the puck out on the boards, we play a very good forecheck, we have what seems like an endless pipeline of grinders and muckers in the system, we certainly don't back down from a scrum. We have every positive quality you could associate to "toughness" on this team already, except a true Krzyzstof Oliwa-style goon (which, IMO, is completely unnecessary).

If we're trading for a guy, we need him to bring some skill with him, not muscle. It's fine to have both (for instance, I'd definitely be down with a Hartnell acquisition), but you talk about guys like Labrie, Zolniercyzk, Eager, Boll, Carcillo, Nolan, King, Jones, etc... those guys I don't want near the Sens in almost any capacity. Completely redundant, unnecessary acquisitions.

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02-24-2013, 07:02 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by BonkTastic View Post
The thing is, we're already a tough team. We're already doing all the things that "tough" teams do to win games: we're good at digging the puck out on the boards, we play a very good forecheck, we have what seems like an endless pipeline of grinders and muckers in the system, we certainly don't back down from a scrum. We have every positive quality you could associate to "toughness" on this team already, except a true Krzyzstof Oliwa-style goon (which, IMO, is completely unnecessary).

If we're trading for a guy, we need him to bring some skill with him, not muscle. It's fine to have both (for instance, I'd definitely be down with a Hartnell acquisition), but you talk about guys like Labrie, Zolniercyzk, Eager, Boll, Carcillo, Nolan, King, Jones, etc... those guys I don't want near the Sens in almost any capacity. Completely redundant, unnecessary acquisitions.
Those low cost guys are basically utility forwards. They would end up being the 13th forward and you would insert them into the lineup against physical teams. For the most part every player on that list could make a similar impact to Daugavins except for the fact that they are more physical and willing to agitate and fight.

They also aren't redundant acquisitions, gritty players that can play a bit are always valuable to have especially in the playoffs. Look at how well Konopka performed in the playoffs last year as compared to the regular season.

However, I do agree that the priority at this point is to add skill. Having a little more grit in the lineup or on the roster is a bit more of a luxury than a necessity at this point. It could go a long ways, but not nearly as much as adding a proven scorer or offensive catalyst.


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02-24-2013, 07:05 PM
  #175
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but need to be sheltered and played like 6mins.

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