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02-24-2013, 06:12 PM
  #626
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
EDIT: And now that I think of it, a herniated disc isn't even an injury. He didn't get hit and suddenly have a herniated disc. It was a problem with his back that needed to be corrected, it was, and now his back's fine.


As a hockey player who's had 7 spine surgeries since 1997 to repair herniated discs I can tell you that there's a very good chance that Bolland's disc issue came from a hockey injury. It didn't have to be a major hit that caused it, herniated discs can happen from even a small amount of contact. You may not even know how/when it happened. My first one I was playing basketball and as I was walking off the court I felt a twinge in my back. Over the course of the next 3 months it got progressively worse until i couldn't even walk or sit in a chair and needed immediate surgery.

I've had other times where i know exactly how it happened, caught a rut in the ice and fell hard on my back once and knew right away I screwed it up.

As much as Bolland plays hockey and with all the contact involved I would guess its about 80% chance it happened in a hockey game, maybe even more.

Its not like he's out laying cement or working in the fields in his spare time.

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02-24-2013, 07:33 PM
  #627
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Not struggling? Whose arse is he saving when he's the only minus player on that line, or any other for that matter

On pace for 25 goals? Also on pace for 35 points, playing with Sharp and Kane.
Do you really find that surprising? Kane and Sharp head off as soon as the puck gets turned over in the offensive zone - especially Kane. Then, Bolland's the only guy left on the ice when the puck's going the other way. If you're trying to say Sharp and Kane are better defensively then Bolland.. well, I don't have much to say to you then. It's a crappy stat and having Kane be +9 and Bolland -3 proves it.

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02-24-2013, 07:37 PM
  #628
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As a hockey player who's had 7 spine surgeries since 1997 to repair herniated discs I can tell you that there's a very good chance that Bolland's disc issue came from a hockey injury. It didn't have to be a major hit that caused it, herniated discs can happen from even a small amount of contact. You may not even know how/when it happened. My first one I was playing basketball and as I was walking off the court I felt a twinge in my back. Over the course of the next 3 months it got progressively worse until i couldn't even walk or sit in a chair and needed immediate surgery.

I've had other times where i know exactly how it happened, caught a rut in the ice and fell hard on my back once and knew right away I screwed it up.

As much as Bolland plays hockey and with all the contact involved I would guess its about 80% chance it happened in a hockey game, maybe even more.

Its not like he's out laying cement or working in the fields in his spare time.
No, but none of us know when Bolland's back problems started. He had the surgery a few games into the 2009-10 season IIRC, so I'd say it'd be likely he did something to his back in the off-season.

Herniated disc's are tricky things. Personally, my mother has one and it's not as if she did anything particularly straining to have the disc pop out. Obviously, playing a physical sport can and does put more stress on your body, including your spine.. but like I said, we don't know when Bolland's back started bothering him.

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02-24-2013, 07:52 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Do you really find that surprising? Kane and Sharp head off as soon as the puck gets turned over in the offensive zone - especially Kane. Then, Bolland's the only guy left on the ice when the puck's going the other way. If you're trying to say Sharp and Kane are better defensively then Bolland.. well, I don't have much to say to you then. It's a crappy stat and having Kane be +9 and Bolland -3 proves it.
If you think that is how the stat is used, it's no wonder you think it's a crappy stat.

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02-24-2013, 08:11 PM
  #630
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If the Hawks are trading for anything is C depth. While I agree with Savara and that I don't have total faith in our goalies, they have earned a chance this year with their play and I think we're OK on D depth for now. We see with Bolland out a game just how quickly our C depth falls. God help us if Toews ever misses a 2-3 game stretch, Bolland, Kruger, Shaw, Mayers, isn't exactly the C depth of a Cup winning team.

Doesn't even have to be a star player, just a reliable NHL C who can do what you expect from a 2-3 C. Win draws, back-check well, put up 40+ points. Because this team lacks it. Then you could slot Bolland back to #3 where he is best especially come play-offs.
If we're talking trades, one of my favorite prospects is Corban Knight, centering University of North Dakota's top line. Having seen him for over 60 games, I think he has #2 centerman in his future. Quick more so than fast, 6-1, 180 pounds, big enough to take some pounding. Good hockey sense, moves the puck and finds teammates. Good in the defensive zone.

He's top-5 in NCAA scoring, but almost as important here is that he is nearly 60% on faceoffs. The last time we had someone that good on faceoffs, his name was Toews.

Florida owns his rights (5th round, 2009). Could trade a prospect for a prospect.

Downside is he probably needs a year or two in the AHL, and the Hawks may need more help at center sooner.

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02-24-2013, 08:34 PM
  #631
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If you think that is how the stat is used, it's no wonder you think it's a crappy stat.
It's a crappy stat no matter how you use it.

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02-24-2013, 08:35 PM
  #632
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If you think that is how the stat is used, it's no wonder you think it's a crappy stat.
So then, what are you trying to say? Enlighten me.

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02-24-2013, 11:26 PM
  #633
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Hey guys,

I come in teeth gritting peace. If it hasn't been mentioned already, Pierre Gauthier has been following the Canucks on their roadtrip.

http://blogs.theprovince.com/2013/02...owing-canucks/

The relevant info can be found at third heading in the link.

I have no idea who Gauthier is watching, as both our teams need centres, and not much else. I imagine most Hawks fans don't look at the Canucks roster and wish for various players.... at all. But there it is.
ok. Gauthier might just be watching them because they are the enemy. I opened the article and saw Roberto Luongo's photo. Look Bobby Lu probably was on his way to the HOF until the Blackhawks got in his way. He still is one of the best goalies in the game today. Has he had a few off years absolutely.

I think his contract is worse than Campbell's. If Luongo was making 4.5 million maybe I would want him in Chicago. I have nothing against Luongo, but it would help the Canucks with their cap situation and that is the biggest reason why they will need to take much less to move him.

In the end I think Luongo will be moved it may not be for a few years and when he is moved it will be an exchange of bad contracts.

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02-24-2013, 11:39 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
Bolland's never struggled when he's been in the line-up. He's been unlucky with injuries, but hasn't really had a recurring injury that's plagued him.

In 2009-10 he had surgery on a herniated disc (back) and in 2010-11 he had a concussion for an errant elbow by Kubina. Those two injuries are responsible for most of the time he's missed.

His back has been fine since the surgery and any player, at any time, can sustain a concussion.

EDIT: And now that I think of it, a herniated disc isn't even an injury. He didn't get hit and suddenly have a herniated disc. It was a problem with his back that needed to be corrected, it was, and now his back's fine.



Sure Dave Bolland was 100% to start the season. I don't know that I would ever say that his back is fine although the surgery was successful. I'm not sure the Blackhawks give him another contract. If they do I hope it is only a 2 year deal at 8 million or even better a one year deal at 4m.

If we have another center in the next few year (Danault, Kruger,McNeill or Pirri) playing well I think at that point we would need to consider Bolland's back history and what we can get for him.

Sure Bolland is great in the playoffs, but he will miss the playoffs either this year or next year. I think his back problems are something we have to look at and say this guy probably only is built for 60 games a season.

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Old
02-25-2013, 03:26 AM
  #635
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You can say that about any team with their #1 centre. You don't make moves around potential injuries that may or may not happen in the future. I'm not saying Chicago shouldn't go out and get another centre, but you can't be worried about things that haven't/may not happen.
But many teams wouldn't be in such trouble like the Blackhawks, look at some of the #2 C on many teams and they could do a good job at the #1 for a short time. Malkin is the obvious, but TB, SJ, LA, VAN, DET, BOS, CAR, NJ, NYR, PHI, WAS, all have 1a options, where as Chicago would have to go to a 2c option.

Plain and simple Chicago is weak in the C position and it's the one area I want to see fixed with a move.

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Old
02-25-2013, 05:28 AM
  #636
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Still have McNeill, Danault and Kayes playing as Center in juniors and 2 of them don't look like they are far away. A #2 C would cost money

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02-25-2013, 05:52 AM
  #637
Marotte Marauder
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If you think that is how the stat is used, it's no wonder you think it's a crappy stat.
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
It's a crappy stat no matter how you use it.
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Originally Posted by HossTheBoss View Post
So then, what are you trying to say? Enlighten me.
You have to do your own homework gentlemen to gain a more complete understanding. Not many open minds on HF.

btw...I'll tell EddieO to knock off the silly faceoff talk next time I see him!

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02-25-2013, 06:50 AM
  #638
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+/- tells me more about who you play with and against and what team your on then how good you are and what you mean to your team.

Shockingly, guys who play on the top line with their teams best players usually have + but guys on the bottom 6 with less talented players and playing against other teams best lines usually have a -.

There's more? If you play on a good team like Chicago you'll have a better +/- then if you play on a crappy team like the Bluejackets? NO!

Hey we'll trade you Johnson for Rosival, hell no, it's obvious Johnson is a crap player and Rosival is a superstar I can tell by their +/-.

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02-25-2013, 06:55 AM
  #639
Marotte Marauder
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+/- tells me more about who you play with and against and what team your on then how good you are and what you mean to your team.

.
...and what does it tell you when you are getting top minutes with top linemates and there is a disparity between players?

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02-25-2013, 07:11 AM
  #640
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...and what does it tell you when you are getting top minutes with top linemates and there is a disparity between players?
That randomness exists.

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02-25-2013, 07:58 AM
  #641
Marotte Marauder
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That randomness exists.
I do not believe in the concept of randomness.

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Old
02-25-2013, 09:11 AM
  #642
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...and what does it tell you when you are getting top minutes with top linemates and there is a disparity between players?
That it's a stupid statistic.

What do you think it means? That Bolland isn't as good defensively? Because it's obvious he's not as good offensively. You don't need to have a phD to figure that out.

If you think Kane and Sharp are better defensive players, you're crazy.

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02-25-2013, 09:12 AM
  #643
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I do not believe in the concept of randomness.
Thats absurd

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02-25-2013, 09:13 AM
  #644
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Lidstrom won the Norris trophy in 2010-11 and was a -2. Shows you what hockey people think of +/-

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02-25-2013, 09:52 AM
  #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marotte Marauder View Post
...and what does it tell you when you are getting top minutes with top linemates and there is a disparity between players?
Is this one of those game within the game things? Still waiting for an explanation of what the good of +- is. I'm waiting, open minded.

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Old
02-25-2013, 10:07 AM
  #646
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I do not believe in the concept of randomness.
Then I hope you're not a physicist.

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02-25-2013, 10:45 AM
  #647
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it means Bolland is not contributing to the offense, and he's not

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02-25-2013, 11:02 AM
  #648
Marotte Marauder
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Thats absurd
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Originally Posted by Sevanston View Post
Then I hope you're not a physicist.

You gentlemen are confusing cause/effect and probability with randomness. In mathematics, there must be an infinite expansion of information for randomness to exist.

There is an entire school of thought called determinism that supports the concept of lack of randomness.

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02-25-2013, 11:03 AM
  #649
Marotte Marauder
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Originally Posted by madgoat33 View Post
it means Bolland is not contributing to the offense, and he's not
So overall he's less productive than his linemates? Gee an actual use for +/-.

Thanks MG

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02-25-2013, 11:38 AM
  #650
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You gentlemen are confusing cause/effect and probability with randomness. In mathematics, there must be an infinite expansion of information for randomness to exist.

There is an entire school of thought called determinism that supports the concept of lack of randomness.
Determinism has yet to mount a reasonable case for how it applies to quantum mechanics.

As best we can tell, quantum mechanics is objectively random.

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