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Who is the untouchable?

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Old
02-24-2013, 07:35 PM
  #51
OneSharpMarble
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Kaberle, even the ice doesn't get to touch him.

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02-24-2013, 07:49 PM
  #52
Madam Kadri
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Galchenyuk, Subban.

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02-24-2013, 08:19 PM
  #53
ryanwb
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Not when you can find guys like Fasth, Thomas, etc out of nowhere.
How can you even compare these two? Fasth has played..what 10 career games? Thomas is pretty much retired and is a Vezina and Cup winning goaltender. And who are your etc...? Sure some guys come out of nowhere and have long careers, but the majority are just flash in the pans.

Guys like Price are extremely rare, coming into the league at such a young age, succeeding and having what looks like is going to be a long career. He might very well be the best goaltender in the entire league, and if he's not, he's pretty darn close. Unfortunately stats don't tell the entire story. To say there are 20 goalies in the league who can do what he can is borderline criminal. Last year Price was the reason we didn't draft 1st overall by a LARGE margin.

Sure some guys have amazing games/streaks/seasons, but how many can say they have had the same amount of success season to season like Price has? We should count our lucky stars we have a guy this good in net.

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Old
02-24-2013, 08:23 PM
  #54
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Everyone is up for trade, but I would need a ridiculous overpayment to trade the following:

Price, PK, Chuckie, Max...

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Old
02-24-2013, 09:00 PM
  #55
E = CH²
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanwb View Post
How can you even compare these two? Fasth has played..what 10 career games? Thomas is pretty much retired and is a Vezina and Cup winning goaltender. And who are your etc...? Sure some guys come out of nowhere and have long careers, but the majority are just flash in the pans.
Fasth and Thomas are guys who no one really thought would be NHL goalies and were undrafted.They got signed at some point and became #1.

Niemi, Halak, Anderson, Backstrom could be others who were drafted really late or signed as FAs.

There are varying degrees of quality here. But the difference isn't quite as big as many here think. In some cases (Thomas), you'd actually have an upgrade (for a few seasons anyway).

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Guys like Price are extremely rare, coming into the league at such a young age, succeeding and having what looks like is going to be a long career.
The fact Price came in at such a young age and was thrust into a #1 role was actually a mistake by the habs. He completely crumbled after Huet left. It's pretty clear he was rushed into a #1 role he wasn't ready for. It took him 2 years to get back on track after that.

There are quite a few other goalies who came into the league at that age. Quick and Rask being 2 of them.

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He might very well be the best goaltender in the entire league, and if he's not, he's pretty darn close.
If you think that then no wonder why we don't see eye to eye. Whatever gave you the impression Price is the best goaltender in the entire league wow... I don't know how one can come to such conclusions. He has never even been nominated for the Vezina. This season he has been solid but unspectacular, nothing crazy.

I just don't know where these type of statements come from in regards with Price. He has the potential, but he needs to realize it at some point before these claims continue to be made in regards with Price.

Quote:
Unfortunately stats don't tell the entire story. To say there are 20 goalies in the league who can do what he can is borderline criminal.
I said there are 20 goalies who can have a vezina season. Price hasn't even had one of those yet but I still count him as a goalie who can have one.

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Last year Price was the reason we didn't draft 1st overall by a LARGE margin.
We were 3rd last and last in our conference and Price was average at best

What's funny here is that we often went into 3rd periods with leads last season and choked them at a spectacular rate. I'm not going to sit here and claim it was Price's fault because it was mostly a team breakdown problem, but if Price were the best goalie in the league or had been playing like one of the best, we should have won more of those than we did.

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Sure some guys have amazing games/streaks/seasons, but how many can say they have had the same amount of success season to season like Price has?
What are you talking about...I'm actually shocked at this. Price had one season where he played like a top 5 goalie... in 2010-11. That's pretty much it. What makes a goalie great ? The fact you like him or his accomplishments ? You're funny, you say some guys have had great seasons (plural), but they haven't had the "success" Price has had ? What is this "success" based on ?

Quote:
We should count our lucky stars we have a guy this good in net.
He's been solid this year. But the team has played really well in front of him. Just look at last night's SO... not even a star and people LOVE Price in Mtl. In 2010-11, the team made the playoffs on Price's back. This year, we would have the same record with any other of the top 20 goalies in the league IMO.

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Old
02-24-2013, 09:10 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Fasth and Thomas are guys who no one really thought would be NHL goalies and were undrafted.They got signed at some point and became #1......
I'd guess you are a Halakian.

Price had a vezine season two years ago but was totally ignored for Team-boosted goalies like Thomas, Rinne and Luongo. We all know the trophy votings are rigged and are a matter of flashy/stats/popularity. I wouldn't even be surprised if Price never won a Vezina in his career because he makes it look so easy and never seems to be challenged. To say there's 20 guy in the league that can play 60+ games and be at the top of their game for each of them (aside from the obvious bad games that happen once in a while) is quite ignorant... Price would be a starter on 30 teams out of 30. Know why? Because he's equal to the best in play and is younger. Rinne, Quick and Luongo are pretty much the best at the moment but you can't really say if Price is worst than them, because he's not. It's just the ''we can't have nice things in Montreal because we're a bunch of whiners/Pessimist/lossers.'' syndrome.

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Old
02-24-2013, 09:16 PM
  #57
NotProkofievian
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Following the rules:

1.) Galchenyuk

2.) Galchenyuk and Price

By untouchable I mean Galchenyuk isn't getting moved unless a clearly better singular player is coming back. So, it's not going to happen.

I wouldn't rather have any other goaltender than Price, but it's been so long since we had an elite center that Galchenyuk, to me, is "the" untouchable, whereas Price would be 2nd on the protected player list.

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Old
02-24-2013, 09:21 PM
  #58
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Cole and Gionta since they have a NTC/NMC

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Old
02-24-2013, 09:22 PM
  #59
Mrb1p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotProkofievian View Post
Following the rules:

1.) Galchenyuk

2.) Galchenyuk and Price

By untouchable I mean Galchenyuk isn't getting moved unless a clearly better singular player is coming back. So, it's not going to happen.

I wouldn't rather have any other goaltender than Price, but it's been so long since we had an elite center that Galchenyuk, to me, is "the" untouchable, whereas Price would be 2nd on the protected player list.
Price is already elite though.... Chukie could end up being a 60 point C for all we know...

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Old
02-24-2013, 09:29 PM
  #60
Mr. Hab
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Gotta cheat and name three!!

Price (wants a Cup)
Subban (wants a Cup)
Galchenyuk (hoping he will be a playoffs warrior)

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Old
02-24-2013, 11:02 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Price is already elite though.... Chukie could end up being a 60 point C for all we know...
You can't just make a decision based on what is the case right now. You have to at least make an attempt to forecast into the future. Of course there are risks involved in any sort of investment decision. You have to decide which risks are well founded, and which are not. That Galchenyuk will be our elite(and by that, I mean top 10 in his position) #1 C is at the very least a good bet. It is, at the very least, as good a bet as Carey Price was at becoming our elite #1 keeper.

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Old
02-24-2013, 11:26 PM
  #62
ryanwb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Fasth and Thomas are guys who no one really thought would be NHL goalies and were undrafted.They got signed at some point and became #1.

Niemi, Halak, Anderson, Backstrom could be others who were drafted really late or signed as FAs.

There are varying degrees of quality here. But the difference isn't quite as big as many here think. In some cases (Thomas), you'd actually have an upgrade (for a few seasons anyway).
Fasth has not become a #1 goalie in this league. Not even close. He might have #1 ability. Look at Raycroft. When Fasth gets a couple seasons under his belt taking a majority of the starts in ANA, and doing well, then we can call him a #1.

You're right in that sometimes guys come in and become #1 goalies from nowhere. But the only one on that list I think you can realistically make a case for being better than Price (and I think is not even close really) is Thomas.
Price > Niemi, Halak, Anderson, and Backstrom, regardless of how much Price is making in comparison.

Quote:
The fact Price came in at such a young age and was thrust into a #1 role was actually a mistake by the habs. He completely crumbled after Huet left. It's pretty clear he was rushed into a #1 role he wasn't ready for. It took him 2 years to get back on track after that.

There are quite a few other goalies who came into the league at that age. Quick and Rask being 2 of them.
OK, I agree with you that he was rushed. He wasn't ready to be a #1. But he was ready to be an NHL goaltender. He didn't look out of place that whole season when he was backing up Huet, and obviously the brass had enough confidence in him to trade Cristobal. Sure, Quick and Rask came up at Price's age, but they weren't ready either. They've all established themselves as great goaltenders and look like long careers are ahead of them. Most NHL goaltenders however begin their fulltime NHL careers right about the age Price is now. Ryan Miller was 25. Lundqvist was 23. Rinne was 26. Thomas was even older. There are exceptions to every rule of course, but Price is a 5 year NHL veteran now and he is just getting started.

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If you think that then no wonder why we don't see eye to eye. Whatever gave you the impression Price is the best goaltender in the entire league wow... I don't know how one can come to such conclusions. He has never even been nominated for the Vezina. This season he has been solid but unspectacular, nothing crazy.

I just don't know where these type of statements come from in regards with Price. He has the potential, but he needs to realize it at some point before these claims continue to be made in regards with Price.
I'm not saying Price is the best goaltender in the league. But he MIGHT be. Just because he has no hardware or accolades means nothing. Try watching him once in a while. To say he isn't even in the discussion is absurd. Solid but unspectacular? What else does he need to do? Get a shutout every game? When this team has a bad game, Price is usually the difference between a 1 goal loss and a complete blowout. Right now I would likely only take Rinne and Lundqvist over him. Even then it is hard to say because Price might still get better in the next 5 years, when he reaches their age. Coincidentally, those are also the only 2 goalies in the league who have a higher cap hit than Price. I'd be curious to know who your top NHL goalie is and who you would take over Price for the next Habs game, and going forward. Surely not Thomas just because he has Vezinas and a Cup?

Quote:
I said there are 20 goalies who can have a vezina season. Price hasn't even had one of those yet but I still count him as a goalie who can have one.
Well sure, that's what I meant when I said guys could have great games/streaks/seasons. Anyone can get hot for a whole year (see Carey, Jim or Turek, Roman). Price has proven to be consistently good-to-great for a while now, and he is only getting better with age.

Quote:
We were 3rd last and last in our conference and Price was average at best

What's funny here is that we often went into 3rd periods with leads last season and choked them at a spectacular rate. I'm not going to sit here and claim it was Price's fault because it was mostly a team breakdown problem, but if Price were the best goalie in the league or had been playing like one of the best, we should have won more of those than we did.
You're right we blew a lot of leads. Price also had 11 SO/OT losses last year. He still had 26 wins. Good enough for 20th in the NHL. Not bad for the worst team in the East, and the 3rd worst in the NHL. So Price was not spectacular, but if he had a couple better bounces in those OT/SO games, we might be talking about 32 wins, which would have placed him borderline top 10 in the whole league. But we can't change the past unfortunately. You had to actually watch him play. The team flat out sucked last year. Price gave them a chance to win every single night. You really think Lundqvist or Rinne (or Thomas?!?!?) would have done significantly better? My personal opinion is that not even Patrick Roy could have saved this team from last season.

Quote:
What are you talking about...I'm actually shocked at this. Price had one season where he played like a top 5 goalie... in 2010-11. That's pretty much it. What makes a goalie great ? The fact you like him or his accomplishments ? You're funny, you say some guys have had great seasons (plural), but they haven't had the "success" Price has had ? What is this "success" based on ?
When I said games/streaks/seasons I meant outliers. Flash in the pan performances, so I apologize for you being confused. My point is this: Brian Elliot had a better season than Price last year, finished higher in the Vezina voting but would you take him over Price for the next Habs game? Or call him a top 5 goalie? Or what about Niemi because he has a Stanley Cup? Price has proven he is a #1 goalie in the NHL, and an above average to elite one at that. Where he slots in on anyone's list is their opinion. I watch a lot of hockey and IMO Price is among the very, very best at his position, Vezina nomination or not. I consider this success. Price is no fluke, that's all.

Quote:
He's been solid this year. But the team has played really well in front of him. Just look at last night's SO... not even a star and people LOVE Price in Mtl. In 2010-11, the team made the playoffs on Price's back. This year, we would have the same record with any other of the top 20 goalies in the league IMO.
Maybe you are right about the record. Maybe not. We obviously can't tell. Let's hope that's not true. I obviously like to think we have a pretty good one back there.

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Old
02-25-2013, 06:56 PM
  #63
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Wow, thanks for opening our eyes! Couldn't you not just answer the ******* question?
I did answer it my response was pretty clear lol.

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Old
02-25-2013, 07:01 PM
  #64
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Ryan White and Nokelainen AINEC.

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02-25-2013, 10:42 PM
  #65
E = CH²
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanwb View Post
...
Maybe I'll take the time to adress your post in more details later. But just one thing I wanted to say about Price.

He's been pretty consistent over the years. He's been consistently above average. But not exceptional. Being consistently decent is a good quality for a goalie. Means that you will give a chance to your team to win if they're good. But I don't know that it means that Price is one of the very best. I don't know that it means he's worth a top 3 cap hit long term.

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02-26-2013, 12:24 AM
  #66
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1. Price
2. Price and Galchenyuk

HM: Subban, Pacioretty

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Old
02-26-2013, 08:36 AM
  #67
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Colby Armstrong and Francis Boullion

why not Weber and Kaberle? Defense wins championships

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Old
02-26-2013, 08:39 AM
  #68
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No one should be untouchable.
agreed, but if you got to name 2 of them on the Habs it's Price and Galchenyuk

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Old
02-26-2013, 09:33 AM
  #69
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"untouchable" is a relative term.

In the pure sense nobody is untoucheable. If the Habs really want Crosby bad, I'm sure they could package 3-4 assets that Pittsburgh would jump on...but it would tear apart their core.

In common sense, guys like Price Markov Subban Tinordi Galchenyuk Plekanec Pacioretty are pretty untoucheable. In other words a team would need to pay well above "market value" for MB to trade them because their loss would leave a big hole on the ice or in the room long term.

Some may be susprised I included Markov, but if you trade him, suddenly guys like Subban and Diaz end up overexposed, having to play more then it affects their play and development and hurts the team in terms of results on the ice. Last year Markov was out and Subban had to play a ton, even when he made mistakes they had to keep sending him out a ton and it makes it harder to correct them playing 25 minutes a night versus 18-19-20.

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