HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Colorado Avalanche
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Greg Sherman & Co - Record as Colorado Avalanche GM

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-24-2013, 09:49 PM
  #701
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 20,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
I'm surprised there isn't more love for the PAP and Mitchell signings.
Exactly, I didn't even mention those. He does a great job bringing in complimentary pieces that fit the team perfectly, and patching holes.

The only thing holding this team back are a real coach and a couple big pieces, most notably an impact defenseman which they tried to get in the summer, but didn't want to throw the bank at guys long term which is understandable.

I can't believe people are that upset they traded a guy like Liles, and let go a guy with a million concussions, and a blood clot issue that was a huge concern at Denver's altitude.

The only real critique that holds weight could be the EJ trade, and it's still too early to call that one. Fans jump ship to the other side every other month depending on how hot or cold Stewart's been, and either way it didn't cripple the team.

If they didn't have EJ, this team would look like it does now defensively.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
02-24-2013, 11:06 PM
  #702
Pirate Deadpool
I hate Minnesota!
 
Pirate Deadpool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Country: United States
Posts: 2,241
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Exactly, I didn't even mention those. He does a great job bringing in complimentary pieces that fit the team perfectly, and patching holes.

The only thing holding this team back are a real coach and a couple big pieces, most notably an impact defenseman which they tried to get in the summer, but didn't want to throw the bank at guys long term which is understandable.

I can't believe people are that upset they traded a guy like Liles, and let go a guy with a million concussions, and a blood clot issue that was a huge concern at Denver's altitude.

The only real critique that holds weight could be the EJ trade, and it's still too early to call that one. Fans jump ship to the other side every other month depending on how hot or cold Stewart's been, and either way it didn't cripple the team.

If they didn't have EJ, this team would look like it does now defensively.
Flash's condition was a non issue. His doc cleared him to play. The avs decided to not have any communication with his agent. I'm glad that florida gave him a huge contract and is doing well. I bet if the avs offered him less before the FA open season date, he would've signed.

Pirate Deadpool is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 12:53 AM
  #703
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 11,729
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Exactly, I didn't even mention those. He does a great job bringing in complimentary pieces that fit the team perfectly, and patching holes.

The only thing holding this team back are a real coach and a couple big pieces, most notably an impact defenseman which they tried to get in the summer, but didn't want to throw the bank at guys long term which is understandable.

I can't believe people are that upset they traded a guy like Liles, and let go a guy with a million concussions, and a blood clot issue that was a huge concern at Denver's altitude.

The only real critique that holds weight could be the EJ trade, and it's still too early to call that one. Fans jump ship to the other side every other month depending on how hot or cold Stewart's been, and either way it didn't cripple the team.

If they didn't have EJ, this team would look like it does now defensively.
As a friend of mine pointed out, he threw a team out there with no power play QB and one player who broke the 30-goal mark in his career. That's not patching holes.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 12:59 AM
  #704
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 20,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The U View Post
Flash's condition was a non issue. His doc cleared him to play. The avs decided to not have any communication with his agent. I'm glad that florida gave him a huge contract and is doing well. I bet if the avs offered him less before the FA open season date, he would've signed.
There's a whole lot going on there, that I'm not really sure what to believe. He had a problem coming to play one game in Denver last year.

I don't know if the Avs knew if he would have a problem with the altitude, or could have a problem, but I just get the sense they didn't want to risk it. This team turns the page when they're ready to move on, and I actually think that's a good thing in the long run. It will serve them better, rather than the opposite. It's the same reason they turned the page on Liles, and moved on with their direction.

That cold nature helps them objectively view risky situations. Whether it hurts them in negotiations with players like O'Reilly, or Hendricks, or Lappy, or whoever is another question.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 01:11 AM
  #705
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 20,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
As a friend of mine pointed out, he threw a team out there with no power play QB and one player who broke the 30-goal mark in his career. That's not patching holes.
I don't think your friend is looking at the big picture.

They had flash and Mueller both as top six guys with big time health concernes. They also had Gali and Winnik as underperforming bottom six guys.

He improved the team by bringing in McGinn and Downie, along with a couple prospects.

The team had a problem being a soft and small defensive core. He improved that by bringing in O'Byrne who was very solid in his role up until this year, and adding Hejda who for the most part has been pretty solid, albeit maybe a few hundred thousand overpaid.

He knew he needed to bring Duchene some help, and someone who could control the play a bit, and feed Duchene so he brought in PAP.

He knew they needed help from a center ice perspective with the loss of McClement, so he brought in Mitchell.

He addresses the small to medium sized needs of the team just fine. These are areas where a lot of teams have trouble with.

It's the bigger pieces that need to be addressed, and a whole lot goes into play with that, whether it's the risk factor of throwing crazy contracts at UFA, the availability of players via trade, or his owners willingness to spend a certain amount at this point of the rebuild. He needs a couple more years to see where this hybrid plan of patience with spending, and aggressive trades fall into place. IMO it has the chance of working out great, if just a couple more pieces fall into place and they can ditch these injury woes.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 01:54 AM
  #706
skip2mybordeleau
We're not that good!
 
skip2mybordeleau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,642
vCash: 6671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs71 View Post
I'm surprised there isn't more love for the PAP and Mitchell signings.
fantastic moves, i was wondering wtf, when we got mitchell. i've been on board with the PAP signing right away , sure still would have preferred parise .

skip2mybordeleau is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 02:00 AM
  #707
RobinDIF
Size doesn't matter!
 
RobinDIF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Posts: 5,306
vCash: 500
PAP and Mitchell were both great from a cap perspective too. Mitchells contract is very good and to get a 67-points guy for 4.0M for four years in the FREE AGENT MARKET is insanely good IMO.

I wish we got this team a few better defenseman, maybe you know go for someone like Kuba, a top 4 d-man. But.. We do are in a re-build stage and I dont think it would be smart to make those moves, yet. In 2-3 years we should starting filling to holes with a few good FA-signing and use the cap space.

RobinDIF is online now  
Old
02-25-2013, 02:04 AM
  #708
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 11,729
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I don't think your friend is looking at the big picture.

They had flash and Mueller both as top six guys with big time health concernes. They also had Gali and Winnik as underperforming bottom six guys.
Winnik was not underperforming. He just wasn't scoring. That's not what he does. He's a solid defensive forward and continues to be one. I don't mind the trade, but the three best defensive forwards this team had from last season (O'Reilly, Winnik, McClement) are now gone. John Mitchell can't replace all of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
He improved the team by bringing in McGinn and Downie, along with a couple prospects.
Didn't mind those acquisitions either...though the loss of Quincey was never addressed and compounded since Liles was already gone. The offense from the blueline was left to Johnson and Hunwick, and I think we can all agree that Hunwick is not an adequate puckmoving defenseman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
The team had a problem being a soft and small defensive core. He improved that by bringing in O'Byrne who was very solid in his role up until this year, and adding Hejda who for the most part has been pretty solid, albeit maybe a few hundred thousand overpaid.
And yet they're playing softer than ever in the defensive zone.

I thought the O'Byrne trade was a great one and have defended it every time, even though it was a costly one. It's fine to add one big, slow, physical defenseman when you have a fast, mobile blueline. But then to add more slow, physical defenders with limited or no puck skill (Hejda, O'Brien, Zanon) not only made O'Byrne redundant, it exposed the fact that he has NO puck skill whatsoever. It's like Sherman forgot that if you don't have any puck skills, you can't control the play in the defensive zone at all, and when you can't do that, you can't get the ****ing puck out of the zone. This team has gone from having a defense that got bumped around and pinned in their own zone to a defense that gets skated around and pinned in their own zone. I liked the defense that gave up a lot of goals and scored a lot of them better than the defense that gives up a lot of goals and didn't score a single frickin' one until Tyson Barrie did last week against the Preds.

I suppose he filled the roster up with meatheads because he didn't want to have to start Barrie or Elliott with the team. But if that was the plan, it was a miserable failure because they not only had to keep Barrie on the team (and in the press box for a good long time), they had to rush Elliott onto the roster fresh from a serious knee injury. Yeah...not great talent development there. How the Avs thought for a moment they could ice a competent team with a blueline this inexcusably bad to start the year is mind-boggling to me. In fact I find it insulting. Unless you're aiming to tank on purpose, you don't do that. And if they honestly are TRYING to tank, then I really want Sherman gone.

And sorry, I think Hejda's been largely a disappointment thus far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
He knew he needed to bring Duchene some help, and someone who could control the play a bit, and feed Duchene so he brought in PAP.
So far, so good on that front. Unfortunately signing Jones to a similar contract is not working so far. We'll see though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
He knew they needed help from a center ice perspective with the loss of McClement, so he brought in Mitchell.
Not arguing with that tradeoff as of yet, but it's too bad he's completely botching things with our other top PK forward...but I've said my piece on that. That has more to do with his boss than him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
He addresses the small to medium sized needs of the team just fine. These are areas where a lot of teams have trouble with.

It's the bigger pieces that need to be addressed, and a whole lot goes into play with that, whether it's the risk factor of throwing crazy contracts at UFA, the availability of players via trade, or his owners willingness to spend a certain amount at this point of the rebuild. He needs a couple more years to see where this hybrid plan of patience with spending, and aggressive trades fall into place. IMO it has the chance of working out great, if just a couple more pieces fall into place and they can ditch these injury woes.
Sorry, I still maintain that he didn't have to throw money around to ice a better team than he did at the start of this season. If you're okay with him icing a team this season that had nothing but EJ and a bunch of pylons on D, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not okay with it. Even the Islanders did more to address their issues regarding offense from the blueline than the Avs did.

I think, by themselves, his trades have, for the most part, worked out. Put together though and he's made enough mistakes, especially on defense, that make me openly question if he really has a plan.

He can redeem himself big-time if he somehow squeezes out a win on the O'Reilly trade. I don't think he will though. I just don't have confidence in Greg the Bean Counter anymore.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 09:51 AM
  #709
cgf
Registered User
 
cgf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 12,552
vCash: 500
The thing with trading Liles is we used that money freed up to sign Hejda, and granted with the useless big boys we signed we needed a PMD, but our top defensive prospects were PMDs, while the only bigger defenders we had were either far away, Siemens, or the team doesn't like them, Gaunce, and now that Barrie's finally making it, Hejda is a great fit next to him.

cgf is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 12:03 PM
  #710
Lonewolfe2015
Registered User
 
Lonewolfe2015's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 12,061
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinDIF View Post
PAP and Mitchell were both great from a cap perspective too. Mitchells contract is very good and to get a 67-points guy for 4.0M for four years in the FREE AGENT MARKET is insanely good IMO.

I wish we got this team a few better defenseman, maybe you know go for someone like Kuba, a top 4 d-man. But.. We do are in a re-build stage and I dont think it would be smart to make those moves, yet. In 2-3 years we should starting filling to holes with a few good FA-signing and use the cap space.
Kuba? He's just more of the same, 5/6 guys that would be thrust into a role they aren't suited for. Panthers would give him to us for free if you asked I bet.

Lonewolfe2015 is online now  
Old
02-25-2013, 12:05 PM
  #711
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 20,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Winnik was not underperforming. He just wasn't scoring. That's not what he does. He's a solid defensive forward and continues to be one. I don't mind the trade, but the three best defensive forwards this team had from last season (O'Reilly, Winnik, McClement) are now gone. John Mitchell can't replace all of them.



Didn't mind those acquisitions either...though the loss of Quincey was never addressed and compounded since Liles was already gone. The offense from the blueline was left to Johnson and Hunwick, and I think we can all agree that Hunwick is not an adequate puckmoving defenseman.



And yet they're playing softer than ever in the defensive zone.

I thought the O'Byrne trade was a great one and have defended it every time, even though it was a costly one. It's fine to add one big, slow, physical defenseman when you have a fast, mobile blueline. But then to add more slow, physical defenders with limited or no puck skill (Hejda, O'Brien, Zanon) not only made O'Byrne redundant, it exposed the fact that he has NO puck skill whatsoever. It's like Sherman forgot that if you don't have any puck skills, you can't control the play in the defensive zone at all, and when you can't do that, you can't get the ****ing puck out of the zone. This team has gone from having a defense that got bumped around and pinned in their own zone to a defense that gets skated around and pinned in their own zone. I liked the defense that gave up a lot of goals and scored a lot of them better than the defense that gives up a lot of goals and didn't score a single frickin' one until Tyson Barrie did last week against the Preds.

I suppose he filled the roster up with meatheads because he didn't want to have to start Barrie or Elliott with the team. But if that was the plan, it was a miserable failure because they not only had to keep Barrie on the team (and in the press box for a good long time), they had to rush Elliott onto the roster fresh from a serious knee injury. Yeah...not great talent development there. How the Avs thought for a moment they could ice a competent team with a blueline this inexcusably bad to start the year is mind-boggling to me. In fact I find it insulting. Unless you're aiming to tank on purpose, you don't do that. And if they honestly are TRYING to tank, then I really want Sherman gone.

And sorry, I think Hejda's been largely a disappointment thus far.



So far, so good on that front. Unfortunately signing Jones to a similar contract is not working so far. We'll see though.



Not arguing with that tradeoff as of yet, but it's too bad he's completely botching things with our other top PK forward...but I've said my piece on that. That has more to do with his boss than him.



Sorry, I still maintain that he didn't have to throw money around to ice a better team than he did at the start of this season. If you're okay with him icing a team this season that had nothing but EJ and a bunch of pylons on D, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm not okay with it. Even the Islanders did more to address their issues regarding offense from the blueline than the Avs did.

I think, by themselves, his trades have, for the most part, worked out. Put together though and he's made enough mistakes, especially on defense, that make me openly question if he really has a plan.

He can redeem himself big-time if he somehow squeezes out a win on the O'Reilly trade. I don't think he will though. I just don't have confidence in Greg the Bean Counter anymore.
I really think this is just an emotional reaction to the team not playing well. So what if Liles and Quincey haven't fully been replaced as of yet, or there are still some holes in the lineup. If they didn't have issues, they'd have a cup contending team. That's ridiculously high expectations for a team in the 4th year of a rebuild. You got to give him time. If we're still out of the playoffs under the next coach, and have big holes in the lineup, then you can lynch him if you want.

Winnik was under performing, they needed more offense out of him and Gali.

Say what you will about the D core, it's not soft. It's just slow, especially right now.

You're right he doesn't have to throw money around to improve the team, but trying to fill the holes in a smart way takes time. You can't expect him to both do it smart, and get it all done in the summer.

What were the better options that he should have pursued? No one is providing any. It's just people who are upset because the teams not playing well. It's really just armchair general managing to a tee IMO.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 12:35 PM
  #712
klozge
Avs
 
klozge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Siegen, Germany
Country: Germany
Posts: 2,019
vCash: 500
I wished we knew what Sherman is allowed to do and what decisions are still made by Lacroix. I wouldn't surprise me to hear Sherman isn't allowed to fire and hire coaches.

klozge is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 12:39 PM
  #713
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 20,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by klozge View Post
I wished we knew what Sherman is allowed to do and what decisions are still made by Lacroix. I wouldn't surprise me to hear Sherman isn't allowed to fire and hire coaches.
That's actually the one area, where I think PL still runs the show. He steers the ship in the direction he thinks it should go as President, and that includes the playing style of the head coach. He wants it to be up tempo, offensive minded, and exciting.

Other than that, I think he probably just sits back, and maybe gives advice to Sherman if he is asked.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 01:42 PM
  #714
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 11,729
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I really think this is just an emotional reaction to the team not playing well. So what if Liles and Quincey haven't fully been replaced as of yet, or there are still some holes in the lineup. If they didn't have issues, they'd have a cup contending team. That's ridiculously high expectations for a team in the 4th year of a rebuild. You got to give him time. If we're still out of the playoffs under the next coach, and have big holes in the lineup, then you can lynch him if you want.

Winnik was under performing, they needed more offense out of him and Gali.

Say what you will about the D core, it's not soft. It's just slow, especially right now.

You're right he doesn't have to throw money around to improve the team, but trying to fill the holes in a smart way takes time. You can't expect him to both do it smart, and get it all done in the summer.

What were the better options that he should have pursued? No one is providing any. It's just people who are upset because the teams not playing well. It's really just armchair general managing to a tee IMO.
Dismiss my points all you want as "emotion," but I think I stated my case well enough. I'm not expecting a contender this year. What I expected was progress toward that goal. Instead I'm seeing a giant step backward.

And there were tons of better options than Greg friggin' Zanon. I mentioned the Isles, who traded for Visnovsky. He's off the books after this year. No muss, no fuss, and if you bring in Barrie/Elliott, they're not having to shoulder the load like they are right now. Not an ideal option, but even Lacroix had the wherewithal to sign Patrice Brisebois, which, despite what fans may think of him, was a beneficial signing.

You still haven't explained why this management team thought it was a good idea to start the season with a defense with such bad puckmoving ability they had to rush two 21-year-olds into the lineup (one coming off an injury) to stem the tide of suckage. If the plan was to fill the blueline with pluggers in order to allow them some flexibility when it came to Barrie/Elliott, that plan was obviously a failure. I don't accept the "we have to fill holes the smart way" excuse. Rushing prospects in to fill holes made by trading away Liles and Quincey and replacing them with O'Brien, Hejda, and Zanon is not filling holes the smart way.

We didn't need "full" replacements for Quincey and Liles, but we needed someone to bridge the gap between those players and Barrie Elliott. The Avs thought that since things were going so well last season with all the big, slow guys, they'd just double down. Sherman honestly thought he could get away without an actual puckmover on the blueline because it worked so well for a short time after the deadline and the Avs were scoring so well with McGinn and Downie seemingly getting it in the net every time they shot the puck. Sure enough, that offense dried up as expected before the season ended. Even Lacroix knows the value of a puckmoving defender, not sure why Sherman doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
That's actually the one area, where I think PL still runs the show. He steers the ship in the direction he thinks it should go as President, and that includes the playing style of the head coach. He wants it to be up tempo, offensive minded, and exciting.

Other than that, I think he probably just sits back, and maybe gives advice to Sherman if he is asked.
I doubt this is the case. The Avs are still taking the same take-it-or-leave-it policy with contracts negotiations that they did under Lacroix and Giguere. I don't believe Sherman is a mere puppet, but Lacroix to me exerts far too much control for a team president. If he were more like Davidson, where he hires the GM and then just ensures everyone play nice with one another, that'd be one thing. To me, Lacroix just surrounds himself with yes-men. And that's what Sherman is. Lacroix's way, way more than just an 'advisor' and you're not gonna convince me for a second he only interjects himself into the conversation when asked.


Last edited by Av-merican: 02-25-2013 at 01:56 PM.
Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 02:36 PM
  #715
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 20,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Dismiss my points all you want as "emotion," but I think I stated my case well enough. I'm not expecting a contender this year. What I expected was progress toward that goal. Instead I'm seeing a giant step backward.

And there were tons of better options than Greg friggin' Zanon. I mentioned the Isles, who traded for Visnovsky. He's off the books after this year. No muss, no fuss, and if you bring in Barrie/Elliott, they're not having to shoulder the load like they are right now. Not an ideal option, but even Lacroix had the wherewithal to sign Patrice Brisebois, which, despite what fans may think of him, was a beneficial signing.

You still haven't explained why this management team thought it was a good idea to start the season with a defense with such bad puckmoving ability they had to rush two 21-year-olds into the lineup (one coming off an injury) to stem the tide of suckage. If the plan was to fill the blueline with pluggers in order to allow them some flexibility when it came to Barrie/Elliott, that plan was obviously a failure. I don't accept the "we have to fill holes the smart way" excuse. Rushing prospects in to fill holes made by trading away Liles and Quincey and replacing them with O'Brien, Hejda, and Zanon is not filling holes the smart way.

We didn't need "full" replacements for Quincey and Liles, but we needed someone to bridge the gap between those players and Barrie Elliott. The Avs thought that since things were going so well last season with all the big, slow guys, they'd just double down. Sherman honestly thought he could get away without an actual puckmover on the blueline because it worked so well for a short time after the deadline and the Avs were scoring so well with McGinn and Downie seemingly getting it in the net every time they shot the puck. Sure enough, that offense dried up as expected before the season ended. Even Lacroix knows the value of a puckmoving defender, not sure why Sherman doesn't.
I'll explain why this kind of critique is emotionally reactionary. This team is in a rebuilding phase, and is planning for the future. They clearly didn't bring in a PMD in the offseason, and also clearly they realize how bad they need on now. If for example Sherman trades for one with O'Reilly, and/or signs one in the summer. Then it was an issue for one season of the rebuild. What they shouldn't be doing is making moves that could be risky in the future, to serve the needs of the team in 2012-13.

He needs time. You can't ask him to both make smart moves, and expect them all to be done quickly.

Visnovski is not the answer for this team. Giving up a 2nd for a 36 year old that fought his trade tooth and nail is not something to put forward as a missed opportunity for Sherman. This does not uphold the assertions of Sherman being a bad GM.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 03:26 PM
  #716
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 11,729
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
I'll explain why this kind of critique is emotionally reactionary. This team is in a rebuilding phase, and is planning for the future. They clearly didn't bring in a PMD in the offseason, and also clearly they realize how bad they need on now. If for example Sherman trades for one with O'Reilly, and/or signs one in the summer. Then it was an issue for one season of the rebuild. What they shouldn't be doing is making moves that could be risky in the future, to serve the needs of the team in 2012-13.
Your explanation as to why my critique is emotionally-based makes no sense whatsoever. You're just rehashing the same "Sherman needs time" argument again. I've taken the time to explain why I think Sherman is failing. That's not emotion, that's logic.

You say the team is planning for the future, and yet didn't realize until just now how badly they needed a PMD!? If that's planning, it's piss-poor planning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
He needs time. You can't ask him to both make smart moves, and expect them all to be done quickly.

Visnovski is not the answer for this team. Giving up a 2nd for a 36 year old that fought his trade tooth and nail is not something to put forward as a missed opportunity for Sherman. This does not uphold the assertions of Sherman being a bad GM.
I've been patient up until now. You're right, he needs time. Thing is, he's gotten that time and this team looks worse than ever.

Visnovsky is but one option, and tooth and nail or not, he showed up. And I've already mentioned that even Lacroix knew how important a PMD is to a successful team. THAT helps uphold the assertions that Sherman is a bad GM.

You say this team needs time, then they should've gotten a puckmoving defender so they didn't have to rush Barrie and Elliott in major roles. The fact that they have been rushed just proves that they screwed up this offseason and didn't realize it until a couple weeks ago. If you're gonna tell me that this was the "plan" to rush two 21-year-olds into service I'm going to call that a bunk argument.

And I'm not buying the "suppose they trade O'Reilly for a PMD" argument. Suppose they trade Duchene for one? I can't evaluate a GM on moves he may or may not make in the future, and neither can you. I can only evaluate his track record so far, and while there have been some inarguably good moves, I don't like what I see.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 03:53 PM
  #717
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 20,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Your explanation as to why my critique is emotionally-based makes no sense whatsoever. You're just rehashing the same "Sherman needs time" argument again. I've taken the time to explain why I think Sherman is failing. That's not emotion, that's logic.

You say the team is planning for the future, and yet didn't realize until just now how badly they needed a PMD!? If that's planning, it's piss-poor planning.
It makes perfect sense, it just contradicts what you're asserting so you write it off. They have a crap coach, and a bunch of injuries and holdouts this year, so they suck. You want to blame that on Sherman as if bringing in Visnovski in the offseason would be the answer for this team sucking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
I've been patient up until now. You're right, he needs time. Thing is, he's gotten that time and this team looks worse than ever.
They are not worse then ever. They have a lot of good young pieces. Duchene, Landy, McGinn, Downie, PAP, EJ, Varly, and young prospects like Barrie, Elliott, Sgarbossa, and Hish. They'll either be able to add O'Reilly to that list, or whatever he brings in. They are a couple big pieces, a good coach, and some health away from being very competitive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Visnovsky is but one option, and tooth and nail or not, he showed up. And I've already mentioned that even Lacroix knew how important a PMD is to a successful team. THAT helps uphold the assertions that Sherman is a bad GM.
This again kind of proves how you're not looking at this clearly. The only missed opportunity you provided was trading a 2nd for a 36 year old, and cited PL's willingness to bring in Brisebois. Brisebois? Really?

Neither of those players serve any purpose in building this team into a winner. That is Sherman's objective, not placing a priority on the shortened 2012-13 season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
You say this team needs time, then they should've gotten a puckmoving defender so they didn't have to rush Barrie and Elliott in major roles. The fact that they have been rushed just proves that they screwed up this offseason and didn't realize it until a couple weeks ago. If you're gonna tell me that this was the "plan" to rush two 21-year-olds into service I'm going to call that a bunk argument.
Again, minor issues. Why is this something to get up in arms about? Everyone seems happy with Barrie, and Elliott has improved as well. These aren't major causes for concern. They were a year off in their expectations, big deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
And I'm not buying the "suppose they trade O'Reilly for a PMD" argument. Suppose they trade Duchene for one? I can't evaluate a GM on moves he may or may not make in the future, and neither can you. I can only evaluate his track record so far, and while there have been some inarguably good moves, I don't like what I see.
You're basic assertion is that because they don't have a PMD in 2012-13, that means Sherman is a bad GM. I'm saying 2012-13 doesn't matter in the grand sceme of things, if he can address the needs of the team in a smart way like he has been. You're upset because they're not playing well, and they need to be good right now.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 05:46 PM
  #718
Nihiliste
Registered User
 
Nihiliste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,813
vCash: 500
While this season has been an abject failure, and I'm extremely critical of Sherman, Foppa is right that things can turn around in a hurry with the right moves. St. Louis looked like they were treading water or regressing, then made a series of smart moves (acquired a real goaltender in Halak, EJ trade, depth signings of Arnott/Langenbrunner/Nichol) and were in contention the next season.

Despite Sherman's many failings (retaining Sacco, no goalie coach, overpaying in trades, failing to sign a core RFA, assembling the worst defense in the league) we are still sitting in a reasonable position. I think this offseason is pretty make or break for us - with Stastny looking less and less like a core component of the future and O'reilly holding out, this is a critical juncture for the team. Within a year we could wind up with one quality center, or with the right moves and luck we can keep ourselves in a good position.

If we can get a good return for O'reilly (quality Dman+), and have the good fortune to draft Barkov or Lindholm (I have them 4&6 respectively) that along with the continued progression of Barrie will go a long way to shoring up our D corps/transition game and also give us some flexibility going forward with Stastny (who I hope we can retain at a lower price).


I think in the end all management teams make mistakes - the Kings wasted a #4 pick on Thomas Hickey and employed an ineffective coach for far too long, but managed to put it all together in the end. We need to continue drafting strong so that we can have the assets to make key moves going forward like they did (Richards&Carter deals). In the meantime we need to see more from Sherman in the mould of bringing in complimentary, but effective, pieces like the Stoll/Greene trade and Mitchell/Scuderi signings.

Nihiliste is online now  
Old
02-25-2013, 06:00 PM
  #719
Nihiliste
Registered User
 
Nihiliste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,813
vCash: 500
I would also like to point out that our PK could be fixed in a hurry for next season. Recall that Winnik was originally acquired for only a 4th, and guys like Nystrom are available in free agency. I wish John Mitchell were better defensively but unfortunately Sherman was (reasonably) expecting to have O'reilly available to to play a lot of PK mins along with Staz.

Coaching, our transition game, the PP, and our prospect system depth are more complicated issues. And even then everything but our system depth could be dramatically improved in one season (though our coaching won't be and will continue to hold our roster back).

Nihiliste is online now  
Old
02-25-2013, 06:04 PM
  #720
henchman24
If and if...
 
henchman24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 12,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I would also like to point out that our PK could be fixed in a hurry for next season. Recall that Winnik was originally acquired for only a 4th, and guys like Nystrom are available in free agency. I wish John Mitchell were better defensively but unfortunately Sherman was (reasonably) expecting to have O'reilly available to to play a lot of PK mins along with Staz.

Coaching, our transition game, the PP, and our prospect system depth are more complicated issues. And even then everything but our system depth could be dramatically improved in one season (though our coaching won't be and will continue to hold our roster back).
Agreed. Those middle two depend a lot on Barrie, EJ, and Elliott all taking the next step. EJ in becoming an all around #1, and the other 2 establishing themselves in the NHL. The talent is there, it just has to come around. The PP could use a true sniper, but we could at least be 10-15 with the talent already on this team and better coaching.

henchman24 is online now  
Old
02-25-2013, 06:10 PM
  #721
Nihiliste
Registered User
 
Nihiliste's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,813
vCash: 500
I agree that without a coaching change, our zone entries, transition game, and PP will probably remain subpar even with personnel improvements. I think its time to give up on the idea of EJ as a big PP threat though - he doesn't have the creativity as a playmaker to QB the PP and he seems to be unable to get his shot through as well. If he could learn to improve that he could potentially become a good trigger man but I have my doubts.

I think it's important that Sherman keeps calm with this failure of a season and doesn't overcompensate the way he did after 2010-11 and totally change the identity of the team. We went from a dcorps that for some games (with injuries) was literally entirely under 6'0" to one that was huge, slow, with horrible puck skills. He needs to not be so reactionary this time around. Assess how Elliott and Barrie perform with the team this year, possibly send Elliott down if he needs more time, and try to acquire a quality guy in the ROR trade. But hopefully this time he remembers to strike a balance.

Nihiliste is online now  
Old
02-25-2013, 06:13 PM
  #722
Av-merican
@Av_merican
 
Av-merican's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: The Frozen Wasteland
Country: Scotland
Posts: 11,729
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihiliste View Post
I would also like to point out that our PK could be fixed in a hurry for next season. Recall that Winnik was originally acquired for only a 4th, and guys like Nystrom are available in free agency. I wish John Mitchell were better defensively but unfortunately Sherman was (reasonably) expecting to have O'reilly available to to play a lot of PK mins along with Staz.

Coaching, our transition game, the PP, and our prospect system depth are more complicated issues. And even then everything but our system depth could be dramatically improved in one season (though our coaching won't be and will continue to hold our roster back).
Agreed. Put it this way--I actually do agree with Foppa that if Sherman makes the right moves this team will be a force. My point of contention is that I just don't think that will happen under Sherman, and moreover, it won't happen under the stifling, suffocating presence of Lacroix.

Av-merican is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 06:24 PM
  #723
henchman24
If and if...
 
henchman24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 12,462
vCash: 500
The way this team is being put together is really a pretty simple concept. Get a 'core' of two really good centers, a top end #1 D, and a top end goalie. Do whatever it takes to acquire those pieces, then fill in around it. They have done a good job getting the talent in the core (not fully developed, but the talent is there if it comes together). They haven't really done a great job at backfilling the talent. PAP, Downie, McGinn, etc show signs of trying to get that talent, but more needs to be done.

henchman24 is online now  
Old
02-25-2013, 06:25 PM
  #724
Foppa2118
Registered User
 
Foppa2118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 22 Acacia Avenue
Country: United States
Posts: 20,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Av-merican View Post
Agreed. Put it this way--I actually do agree with Foppa that if Sherman makes the right moves this team will be a force. My point of contention is that I just don't think that will happen under Sherman, and moreover, it won't happen under the stifling, suffocating presence of Lacroix.
Fair enough. I think he and his group do a good job of identifying players that will fit in well with the Avs so I'm more optimistic.

If they can't find a way in the next 2-3 years to bring in another top level scorer, and offensive D through UFA/Trade/Draft though they are gonna be in trouble. That's the next step for this team, and they need to take it ASAP. That's where I will really judge Sherman and co.

Foppa2118 is offline  
Old
02-25-2013, 06:44 PM
  #725
AllAboutAvs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: B.C. Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,663
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foppa2118 View Post
Fair enough. I think he and his group do a good job of identifying players that will fit in well with the Avs so I'm more optimistic.

If they can't find a way in the next 2-3 years to bring in another top level scorer, and offensive D through UFA/Trade/Draft though they are gonna be in trouble. That's the next step for this team, and they need to take it ASAP. That's where I will really judge Sherman and co.
I'm with you on the rebuild. In hindsight it is easy to find where Sherman went wrong but a rebuild never, and I mean never, go in a straight upward line. There are always some bumps along the way. Mueller's and Fleisch's health were 2 of those bumps. Really nothing he could have done about those. He had to cut his losses and move on.

He also overrated Barrie and Elliott by about one year like you said. Looks like Barrie is finally making that much needed step.

It is unfortunate but RoR's trade might help a long way in moving this team along.

The way I see it we are one top-pairing dman, one top-9 forward and a very good coach away from having a pretty good team. The coach alone could probably move us into the playoffs.

AllAboutAvs is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:10 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.