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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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Old
02-24-2013, 10:46 PM
  #326
Mike Louis
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If the NHL does decide to go the two conference / four division route, I can see Rocky Wirtz getting mighty pissed about the Blackhawks / Red Wings rivalry being lost, and Chicago being the only O6 left in the West.

This reminds me how Detroit felt when Toronto went to the East circa 1998, and Columbus being placed in the West by the league as a indirect form of compensation for the lost Red Wings / Maple Leafs rivalry.

Now put yourself in Bettman's role for a moment, say the 16 ETZ teams are voting for two ETZ divisions (Adams / Patrick) with eight teams each. Now sure Detroit and Columbus will jump on it in a heartbeat, but the current Central Division teams (ie Chicago, Nashville, and St. Louis) will be pissed like hell.

Now the ETZ teams will need at the very least, four non ETZ teams to vote "yes" to get the 2/3 majority needed for this proposed alignment. The problem then becomes how to get those four votes, yet at the same time avoid the perception that the Central Division is getting screwed by this proposal.

If I was Bettman, the answer I believe centers on what kind of compensation I would offer to Wirtz. This is where I suspect the saga with the Coyotes comes into play. With Don Levin, owner of the AHL Chicago Wolves being one of the many looking to buy the Coyotes, I can see a scenario where Bettman goes to Wirtz and does a deal where Wirtz will sign off on Detroit going East in exchange for letting Coyotes move into Rosemont with Wirtz pocketing half of the relocation fee and getting a written promise that should an ETZ team move west that the Blackhawks have first right to move to the East. QC and Seattle get expansion teams with Levin transferring his AHL team to Phoenix to appease the Glendale city council.

The bottom line for me is if Bettman can get Wirtz to let the Red Wings go to the East, the rest of the chips will fall into place.

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02-24-2013, 11:07 PM
  #327
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Love this as a Bruins fan and STH. This is going to be fun!

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02-25-2013, 12:23 AM
  #328
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Originally Posted by orthosrgn2 View Post
Next divide the teams into 6 divisions of 5 teams.
OK, what happens with expansion? (Hopefully we avoid contraction). Do you want each expansion to have 6 teams at once? If not, you're still going to get unbalanced divisions. The 4-division alignment was not about ensuring equal divisions, otherwise you'd have a major re-alignment after each expansion. The re-alignment was about improving team revenues, specifically TV revenues for away games, by having fewer road games start on tV at 4PM and 10PM.

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02-25-2013, 01:07 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by Mike Louis View Post
If the NHL does decide to go the two conference / four division route, I can see Rocky Wirtz getting mighty pissed about the Blackhawks / Red Wings rivalry being lost, and Chicago being the only O6 left in the West.

This reminds me how Detroit felt when Toronto went to the East circa 1998, and Columbus being placed in the West by the league as a indirect form of compensation for the lost Red Wings / Maple Leafs rivalry.

Now put yourself in Bettman's role for a moment, say the 16 ETZ teams are voting for two ETZ divisions (Adams / Patrick) with eight teams each. Now sure Detroit and Columbus will jump on it in a heartbeat, but the current Central Division teams (ie Chicago, Nashville, and St. Louis) will be pissed like hell.

Now the ETZ teams will need at the very least, four non ETZ teams to vote "yes" to get the 2/3 majority needed for this proposed alignment. The problem then becomes how to get those four votes, yet at the same time avoid the perception that the Central Division is getting screwed by this proposal.

If I was Bettman, the answer I believe centers on what kind of compensation I would offer to Wirtz. This is where I suspect the saga with the Coyotes comes into play. With Don Levin, owner of the AHL Chicago Wolves being one of the many looking to buy the Coyotes, I can see a scenario where Bettman goes to Wirtz and does a deal where Wirtz will sign off on Detroit going East in exchange for letting Coyotes move into Rosemont with Wirtz pocketing half of the relocation fee and getting a written promise that should an ETZ team move west that the Blackhawks have first right to move to the East. QC and Seattle get expansion teams with Levin transferring his AHL team to Phoenix to appease the Glendale city council.

The bottom line for me is if Bettman can get Wirtz to let the Red Wings go to the East, the rest of the chips will fall into place.
A team in rosemont? What?

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02-25-2013, 01:32 AM
  #330
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Since the NHL seems hellbent on going with this model (which I don't like, btw), here's how they should do it:

CONF A - Boston, Montreal, NY Rangers, Ottawa, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Toronto, Washington (Wash moves to Conf B if Quebec City joins league as expansion franchise)

CONF B - Buffalo, Carolina, Columbus, Florida, New Jersey, NY Islanders, Tampa Bay

CONF C - Chicago, Colorado, Dallas, Detroit, Minnesota, Nashville, St. Louis

CONF D - Anaheim, Calgary, Edmonton, Los Angeles, Phoenix, San Jose, Vancouver, Winnipeg (Phoenix moves to Conf C if Seattle joins league as expansion franchise, and assuming the Phoenix franchise itself doesn't end up in Seattle)

All the Canadian teams are divided between two of the conferences, and the Eastern time zones teams are divided, roughly speaking, by small markets and the big markets. And I know someone is reading this thinking, 'you can't separate the Rangers from the Islanders and Devils, they won't be rivals anymore.' Hogwash, they'll still be rivals, it really doesn't matter if they're aligned together, particularly consideirng they are too many damn franchises in just that small slither of the country. Hardly comparable to the Kings and Ducks, or Oilers and Flames. Again, let the smaller market Eastern teams have their own playground, and let the franchises in the Original Six and other big hockey markets have their battles. The NHL will be better off in every way for it.

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02-25-2013, 01:43 AM
  #331
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Sorry, it's about winning the cup, if Wings go east Blackhawks chances go up. Nashville isn't dependent on the Wings, it's only three home games. The west will vote for this proposal. Don't make it into something it's not.

West probably traded two 7 team Conferences, for the wings going east.

Remember more teams in playoffs more money.

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02-25-2013, 01:48 AM
  #332
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One other note I'll add, I don't blame the Blackhawks for being upset over not being aligned with my Red Wings. I DON'T think it would kill the rivalry, but there's still far more tradition there than there is with, say, the Rangers & Islanders. Clearly, if the NHL does have to split traditional rivalries into separate groupings, then it has to be among the Eastern-most teams. Geographically, nothing else makes sense.

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02-25-2013, 02:57 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Sunking278 View Post
Since the NHL seems hellbent on going with this model (which I don't like, btw), here's how they should do it:

CONF A - Boston, Montreal, NY Rangers, Ottawa, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Toronto, Washington (Wash moves to Conf B if Quebec City joins league as expansion franchise)

CONF B - Buffalo, Carolina, Columbus, Florida, New Jersey, NY Islanders, Tampa Bay



it.

Heck no...you are destroying rivals. Its as if Conference b is a hodge podge of left overs.

Confernece a teams will be pissed because it appears there is a serious competitive imbalance between the conferences.

As i have said before an alternate option is to go with a north/south cut

WEST, NORTH, SOUTH, EAST

WEST: ANA, SJ, LA, VAN, CGY, EDM, PHX/SEA, COL
SOUTH: DAL, STL, NASH, CAR, WAS, FL, TB
NORTH: WPG, MIN, CHI, DET, TOR, BUF, PIT, CBS
EAST: OTT, MON, BOS, NYR, NYI, NJ, PHI, **QC/TOR**

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02-25-2013, 03:05 AM
  #334
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WEST: ANA, SJ, LA, VAN, CGY, EDM, PHX, ****SEA****
CENTRAL: COL, DAL, STL, NASH, WPG, MIN, CHI
ATL: DET, CBS, PIT, PHL, WAS, CAR, FL, TB, NJ
EAST: OTT, MON, BOS, NYR, NYI, BUF, TOR, ****QC****

IF another team goes to TOR then COL goes to the West then Central and ATlantic would become North and South with some shifting of teams.

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02-25-2013, 03:21 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
The problem is expansion IS coming. I hope everybody accepts that by now. The two best expansion locations by a country mile are Quebec City and Markham (Toronto2). NO U.S. team should be used for expansion. Expansion teams usually SUCK early. You want Canadian teams for that. The fans will get upset but still flock the arenas. Sucking will be greeted with apathy, otherwise. You definitely don't want that. If Phoenix has to go, then move it to Seattle. And forget about trying to forcefeed other markets in the U.S. Geography is a terrible argument to bring in both Seattle and Portland over Quebec City or Markham.


So, perhaps some outside-the-box thinking is required here to make this thing work. Because if this new realignment and Detroit's demands force the league to NOT expand to Quebec City and Markham, then they'd only be shooting themselves in the foot.
Seattle is certain to get a team one way or another either as expansion or from relocation of PHX or another team (islanders)

Both Seattle and Portland would support hockey easily with little effort. People in the area are familiar with the sport. Seattle has a larger population and more corporate dollars to get.

http://www.seattlehockey.net/Seattle...d_the_NHL.html

the arena is an issue. Key Arena got changes thus screwing it up big time for hockey.

Portland's Rose Garden can do hockey with a 16,000+ capacity. Its an alternate option to serve has a temporary home.

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02-25-2013, 03:27 AM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Djp View Post
Heck no...you are destroying rivals. Its as if Conference b is a hodge podge of left overs.

Confernece a teams will be pissed because it appears there is a serious competitive imbalance between the conferences.

As i have said before an alternate option is to go with a north/south cut

WEST, NORTH, SOUTH, EAST

WEST: ANA, SJ, LA, VAN, CGY, EDM, PHX/SEA, COL
SOUTH: DAL, STL, NASH, CAR, WAS, FL, TB
NORTH: WPG, MIN, CHI, DET, TOR, BUF, PIT, CBS
EAST: OTT, MON, BOS, NYR, NYI, NJ, PHI, **QC/TOR**
I actually kind of like your idea. Again, though, I maintain that franchises need not necessarily be in the same division or conference to maintain a rivalry. And there are way too many teams in the Eastern time zone, so something should have to give there.

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02-25-2013, 06:01 AM
  #337
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Originally Posted by Predatorbill View Post
Sorry, it's about winning the cup, if Wings go east Blackhawks chances go up. Nashville isn't dependent on the Wings, it's only three home games. The west will vote for this proposal. Don't make it into something it's not.

West probably traded two 7 team Conferences, for the wings going east.

Remember more teams in playoffs more money.
The Wings are in the down swing you think the West would not want to lose a team that not likely to be in contention soon. Especially a legacy team that put butt in your seats every time they visit. Something is odd with that unbalanced proposal. I got a feeling it only step one before a relocation and expansion.


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02-25-2013, 06:17 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Sunking278 View Post
Since the NHL seems hellbent on going with this model (which I don't like, btw), here's how they should do it:

CONF A - Boston, Montreal, NY Rangers, Ottawa, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Toronto, Washington (Wash moves to Conf B if Quebec City joins league as expansion franchise)

CONF B - Buffalo, Carolina, Columbus, Florida, New Jersey, NY Islanders, Tampa Bay

CONF C - Chicago, Colorado, Dallas, Detroit, Minnesota, Nashville, St. Louis

CONF D - Anaheim, Calgary, Edmonton, Los Angeles, Phoenix, San Jose, Vancouver, Winnipeg (Phoenix moves to Conf C if Seattle joins league as expansion franchise, and assuming the Phoenix franchise itself doesn't end up in Seattle)

All the Canadian teams are divided between two of the conferences, and the Eastern time zones teams are divided, roughly speaking, by small markets and the big markets. And I know someone is reading this thinking, 'you can't separate the Rangers from the Islanders and Devils, they won't be rivals anymore.' Hogwash, they'll still be rivals, it really doesn't matter if they're aligned together, particularly consideirng they are too many damn franchises in just that small slither of the country. Hardly comparable to the Kings and Ducks, or Oilers and Flames. Again, let the smaller market Eastern teams have their own playground, and let the franchises in the Original Six and other big hockey markets have their battles. The NHL will be better off in every way for it.
they will still be rivals, but it wont be the same. In time, they will become like the Jets-Giants and Yankees-Mets. Sure there is a small rivalry with those, but it is not as big as the Giants-Eagles, Jets-Pats, Yanks-Sox and so forth. Jets-Giants is really only a rivalry now because of Rex Ryan and his mouth. Otherwise, the fan bases generally do not care about the other team. Mets-Yanks, is eh, nothing really.

However, I do like your concept of big market-small market. Only problem is that does change. Look at the Pens. Going into the 94-95 lockout they had the highest payroll and were considered one of the big teams. After Mario retired, they struggled big time and in just a few short years were on the verge of moving. Crosby came and now they are one of the big guys again. What happens when Crosby retires? Other problem is that could cause the small market divisions to get even less attention.

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02-25-2013, 06:21 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Sunking278 View Post
I actually kind of like your idea. Again, though, I maintain that franchises need not necessarily be in the same division or conference to maintain a rivalry. And there are way too many teams in the Eastern time zone, so something should have to give there.
Yeah, they really do need to be in the same division to maintain a rivalry. What rivalry has survived long-term when the teams were in different divisions? RIvalries like Avs-Wings can be great for a few years when you have two teams dominate and compete in the play-offs every year. However, those fade as the teams drop in the standings.

There are so many teams because the bulk of the population for the continent is in the eastern time zone. The time zone has a lot more large cities. What should they do, force teams to move to markets in other time zones?

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02-25-2013, 06:54 AM
  #340
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Umm, west is playing the east more now.
The games haven't become more important nor with more potential for intensity and thus nor with potential for any rival atmosphere which the fans like. So many fans will ignore those games. And with a lessening big presence in the those western Conference, less reason for fans (in the areas where the majority of fans exist) to give attention to games between those teams.

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02-25-2013, 06:56 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by Mike Louis View Post
If the NHL does decide to go the two conference / four division route, I can see Rocky Wirtz getting mighty pissed about the Blackhawks / Red Wings rivalry being lost, and Chicago being the only O6 left in the West.
Why wouldn't he get equally pissed if it's 4 Conferences and he's losing Detroit?

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02-25-2013, 07:00 AM
  #342
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I'm VERY late to this discussion, so forgive me if the answers to these questions are obvious but:

Assuming the NHL adopts the 4 Conference setup in the OP,

1. Do we know what playoff system will be? Top four from each conference?
2. Do we know what the regular season schedule breakdown will be?

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02-25-2013, 07:05 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Yeah, they really do need to be in the same division to maintain a rivalry. What rivalry has survived long-term when the teams were in different divisions?
Pens-Caps & Bruins-Flyers are two that I can think of.

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02-25-2013, 07:05 AM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Djp View Post
Heck no...you are destroying rivals. Its as if Conference b is a hodge podge of left overs.

Confernece a teams will be pissed because it appears there is a serious competitive imbalance between the conferences.

As i have said before an alternate option is to go with a north/south cut

WEST, NORTH, SOUTH, EAST

WEST: ANA, SJ, LA, VAN, CGY, EDM, PHX/SEA, COL
SOUTH: DAL, STL, NASH, CAR, WAS, FL, TB
NORTH: WPG, MIN, CHI, DET, TOR, BUF, PIT, CBS
EAST: OTT, MON, BOS, NYR, NYI, NJ, PHI, **QC/TOR**
Swap Pittsburgh with the second Toronto team and you've got a deal. But I don't see a benefit for Pittsburgh being away from the three New York teams and Philadelphia.

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02-25-2013, 07:05 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
The games haven't become more important nor with more potential for intensity and thus nor with potential for any rival atmosphere which the fans like. So many fans will ignore those games. And with a lessening big presence in the those western Conference, less reason for fans (in the areas where the majority of fans exist) to give attention to games between those teams.
East vs West games have NEVER been very important as compared to others and I doubt all that many fans in the East pay too much attention to west coast teams now. Maybe they read stats and articles, but most people are not going to stay up to watch those games anyway.

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02-25-2013, 07:08 AM
  #346
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Originally Posted by wildthing202 View Post
Pens-Caps & Bruins-Flyers are two that I can think of.
Bruins-Flyers? Again, a fad. Not nearly as intense as Flyers-Rangers, Flyers-Pens, Bruins-Habs. Pens and Caps was even better when they played in the play-offs it seemed every year. Now, it is hyped up because of Crosby and Ovechkin.

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02-25-2013, 07:30 AM
  #347
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Pens-Caps & Bruins-Flyers are two that I can think of.
I would let the Flyers rivalry fade to be able to have divisional playoffs.

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02-25-2013, 07:45 AM
  #348
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Hey guys! I've seen that idea somewhere else I don't really remember but what about splitting everything between north and south?


That would makes all teams mostly even with traveling. It would give more chances for Canadians teams to face each other more often (I'm Canadian, I know Americans won't care about this too)

North:

Montreal
Toronto
Ottawa
Boston
Buffalo
Edmonton
Calgary
Winnipeg
Vancouver
Minnesota
Detroit
NYI
NYR
New Jersey
Chicago

South:

Pittsburgh (We keep the Philly-Pittsburgh rivalry intact)
Philadelphie
Washington
Florida
Tampa
Caroline
Nashville
Anaheim
St-Louis
San Jose
Dallas
Phoenix
Los Angeles
Colorado
Columbus

What about this? Equal traveling for everybody (mostly)
As much as I would like to see more equity in terms of travel time for all teams in the NHL, this would never fly. The main reason for realignment is tv revenue....that is, franchises want the majority of their games to start between 6:30-7:30 pm local time. If they get that, they get more butts in front of the tv and that means more advertising dollars and more broadcast revenue. Your proposal would create more funky start times and put fewer butts in front of the tvs and would impact the owner's bottom line...which is why it will never happen....also need to consider the added cost for all that addt'l travel.

It's all about the money, first and foremost.

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02-25-2013, 07:48 AM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Mike Louis View Post
If the NHL does decide to go the two conference / four division route, I can see Rocky Wirtz getting mighty pissed about the Blackhawks / Red Wings rivalry being lost, and Chicago being the only O6 left in the West.
Can you really say that a rivalry is lost just because two teams aren't in the same division? Toronto and Montreal were in different divisions for 21 years (14 of those years in opposite conferences), and I don't think anyone felt that rivalry died*. In fact, I recall some saying that the fact that they only played twice a year made the rivalry more special.

* To be fair, I understand that the Habs-Leafs rivalry goes way beyond hockey, so it may not be fair to use that as an example

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02-25-2013, 07:49 AM
  #350
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the only way I can see this working is to expand to Seattle and Quebec.

2 16 team conferences, 4 8 team divisions.

Detroit moves East, Winnipeg moves west.

Eastern Conference
North East Div. - DET-PIT-BUF-QUE-OTT-TOR-BOS-MON
Atlantic Div. - NYR-NJD-NYI-PHI-CAR-WAS-TAM-FLA

Western Conference
Pacific Div - VAN-EDM-CAL-ANA-LAK-SJS-PHO-SEA
Heartland Div. - MIN-WIN-NAS-DAL-CHI-STL-CLB-COL

Natural rivalries remain intact. Travel for the western divisions, I believe, would be reduced.

And I have to add.

top 4 teams in each division make the PO's, 1 plays 4, 2 plays 3.

Bring back Division Banners, Conference Banners. Bring back having to win 2 rounds of playoffs to actually WIN your division.

Bring back coming first in your division only give you home ice in the first 2 rounds

You want legit rivalries back? Divisional Heavy scheduled and Div. Playoffs is how you do it.

Also, for All-Star weekend. Make it mean something. Skills competition on Friday night. then:

Each division gets an all star team. East plays East, West Plays West on Saturday, winners play each other on Sunday. Winning conference gets home ice in the finals.

Similar to what Baseball does with their all-star game, but this makes it more interesting.


Last edited by pld459666: 02-25-2013 at 08:03 AM.
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