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Do the Kings win the cup with Schenn/Simmonds vs Richards/Carter?

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Old
02-25-2013, 04:48 AM
  #1
SCARFACE909
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Do the Kings win the cup with Schenn/Simmonds vs Richards/Carter?

Not sure if this as been asked on here, but I'm curious if anyone believes if Dean had not made either of those trades if the Kings win the cup last season?

It seems like Philadelphia fans are set on the fact that LA would of won last year with Schenn and Simmonds as opposed to Carter and Richards, because they didn't do much to win, I disagree, and I feel like most Kings fans would too, guess it just makes them feel better to think they weren't important pieces?

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02-25-2013, 05:05 AM
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I don't think any sensible philly fan thinks that Schenn and Simmonds would have been able to do what Carter and Richards did for the team in the playoffs/stretch run? Or any sensible hockey fan for that matter.

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02-25-2013, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by topliner967 View Post
I don't think any sensible philly fan thinks that Schenn and Simmonds would have been able to do what Carter and Richards did for the team in the playoffs/stretch run? Or any sensible hockey fan for that matter.
Agreed, was curious how other Kings fans felt, since I've seen a few Flyer fans echo that sentiment in that Schenn and Simmonds would of won the Cup as well. I'm the same way, if neither those deals happen, Kings don't win with Simmer and Schenn on the team.

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02-25-2013, 05:36 AM
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The common Philly fan doesn't know **** about hockey, they're armchair coaches who think they know it all. To say the Kings would've won without Richards and Carter is foolish, and clearly comments made by individuals who didn't bother to watch a Kings' playoff game.

Those bitter Flyers fans can say what they want to say, but Carter and Richards have their names on a Cup and they played pivotal minutes on one of the most dominant teams during a playoff run.

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02-25-2013, 05:39 AM
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Not last year.

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02-25-2013, 06:58 AM
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Not even close. Richards pretty much set the tone in the Vancouver series for the rest of team to follow, they went from a team that was looking to do some damage in playoffs to a team knowing they're going to do damage in playoffs, Richards instantly legitimized this team as a Cup contender in that series and continued to play well the whole playoffs.

Carter started out meh and got stronger towards the end, finished tied as the best goal scorer with 8, remember those juicy goals in the finals?

I don't think either Schenn or Simmonds could do that last year, you MIGHT have an argument down the road, but last year? Zero chance.

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02-25-2013, 07:19 AM
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A lot of Flyer fans will say anything to make it sound like Richards and Carter had minor roles in the playoffs. Take a look at Simmonds/Schenn/Voracek's pk TOI this season. You don't see anything? That's because, unlike Richards and Carter, they never kill penalties. The Flyers have played more games than any other team in the league and play in an offensive system. The Kings take care of the defence first so while 4 goals for the Kings is huge, 4 goals for the Flyers is a necessity. Their favourite comment about last year's playoffs is saying it was all about Quick. They seem to forget Richards in game 1 vs Vancouver or Carter's 2 goals including the game winner in game 6 vs New Jersey and of course when he scored the hatty vs St. Louis it didn't count because it was a blowout.

The latest is that Voracek is elite because he has 12 points in 5 games. It's not all Flyer fans that come up with this stuff but it's quite a few of them.

Anyone who watched the playoff run knows that every player contributed. Quick was consistently the best player but every single player had moments of stardom right down to the 4th line and 6th pairing. Hockey is about the team and that's how the Kings got so far.

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02-25-2013, 07:30 AM
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The Kings are nowhere near the cup without Richards and Carter.

Needless to say, or perhaps needed to say, this game, especially in the playoffs, is way way way more than goals and points.

Been there done that, or almost been there done that, means extremely much if you want to contend, unless you are a Crosby-Malkin talent or possess killer depth.

Make some line combinations without Richards and Carter, insert Schenn and Simmonds in their place, and that team is not close to being a contender.

In my opinion.

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02-25-2013, 07:36 AM
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I'm not even sure if the Kings would even have made the playoffs.

Schenn would have been still sucking on his thumb and Simmonds wouldn't have scored as many goals as he does in Philly.

Carter and Richards were on different levels. Flyer fans can think what they want, but we got winners out of that deal. They took it to the next level and got the job done.

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02-25-2013, 08:07 AM
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No, of course they don't win, w/o Richards (and what he did in Nov, 7 of his 9 goals were GWG or GTG) arguably they are not in the playoffs.

You have to understand, for some Flyers fans trashtalking Richards and Carter is a defense mechanism to make themselves feel better because they are not around anymore. Extremely small and immature biut a defense mechanism nonetheless.

Having seen every game Schenn an d Simmonds have played, there is no way the Kings would have made the playoffs with them. Schenn would not have been on the kings, he'd have been in Manchester a nd Stoll as a #2 all year wouldn't have cut it.

Schenn had 6 goals and 19 points in over 50 game , which didn't upset me. WHat was a concern was how terriblyi disappointing he was the entire year. He was missing in action for most games, invisible. He has offensive skills, but that's where his effectiveness ends. He is terrible in his own zone and the neutral zone, loses most of his board battles and creates costly turnovers that lead to scoring chances and goals. For example, he scored 2 goals agsint the Jets sat, but was stripped of the puck on the boards in tne neutral zone and the Jets scored. He does that alot. He also tends to disappear against skilled teams.

If anybody thinks that Schenn would have come close to creating the fear of playing agaisnt him that Richards does, they' don't know hockey. That Schenn could have dismantled Burrows and Kessler off their game like Richards did, you're dreaming. Winning a championship is more than scoring, it's having that complete game, being a 200 foot \player and playing with a mean streak, a sharp set of fangs.

Carter's foot was injured and he wasn't 100% until the middle of the WCF and from then on he was an impact player. Two of his 8 goals were GWG in the finals.

You have to live in Philly to appreciated how nearsighted some fans are, once a player isn't a Flyer anymore the fans lose their objectivitity and that player becomes much less than he is in reality. JVR is another example, a very talented power forward who was never given the stability, reg minutes or game situations to grow as a player. He was bounced from line to line, benched, never on the PP or PK. ALl of which he does now with the LEafs and he's flourishing , the 11 goals are only one part of how much better he is all over the ice. But to hear the fans here, he 'never did that ' for us and they trash talk him.

With Richards and carter the Kings have a good solid foundation to help the team go deep and contend for years. WIth Schenn and Simmonds, the FLyers don't have that, they are complimentary players and the team behind them has far too many holes.

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02-25-2013, 08:07 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nki View Post
Richards pretty much set the tone in the Vancouver series for the rest of team to follow, they went from a team that was looking to do some damage in playoffs to a team knowing they're going to do damage in playoffs, Richards instantly legitimized this team as a Cup contender in that series and continued to play well the whole playoffs.
What Richards did in Game 1 against Vancouver was something that not many players would be able to do, and certainly not Schenn in his rookie season.

The Flyers are an organization that goes deep in the playoffs like at least once every 5 years or so. The Kings had been out of the 1st round once in 20 years, and made it out of the 2nd round only once in franchise history. No Flyer fan should diminish what Richards did for the Kings, as his time spent with the Flyers had to teach him something. Same with Carter.

It would be difficult to find a deal that has worked out, and will continue to work out, so well for both teams than the Richards for Schenn/Simmonds trade.

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02-25-2013, 08:33 AM
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Brad Doty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeshamrock View Post
No, of course they don't win, w/o Richards (and what he did in Nov, 7 of his 9 goals were GWG or GTG) arguably they are not in the playoffs.

You have to understand, for some Flyers fans trashtalking Richards and Carter is a defense mechanism to make themselves feel better because they are not around anymore. Extremely small and immature biut a defense mechanism nonetheless.

Having seen every game Schenn an d Simmonds have played, there is no way the Kings would have made the playoffs with them. Schenn would not have been on the kings, he'd have been in Manchester a nd Stoll as a #2 all year wouldn't have cut it.


Schenn had 6 goals and 19 points in over 50 game , which didn't upset me. WHat was a concern was how terriblyi disappointing he was the entire year. He was missing in action for most games, invisible. He has offensive skills, but that's where his effectiveness ends. He is terrible in his own zone and the neutral zone, loses most of his board battles and creates costly turnovers that lead to scoring chances and goals. For example, he scored 2 goals agsint the Jets sat, but was stripped of the puck on the boards in tne neutral zone and the Jets scored. He does that alot. He also tends to disappear against skilled teams.

If anybody thinks that Schenn would have come close to creating the fear of playing agaisnt him that Richards does, they' don't know hockey. That Schenn could have dismantled Burrows and Kessler off their game like Richards did, you're dreaming. Winning a championship is more than scoring, it's having that complete game, being a 200 foot \player and playing with a mean streak, a sharp set of fangs.

Carter's foot was injured and he wasn't 100% until the middle of the WCF and from then on he was an impact player. Two of his 8 goals were GWG in the finals.

You have to live in Philly to appreciated how nearsighted some fans are, once a player isn't a Flyer anymore the fans lose their objectivitity and that player becomes much less than he is in reality. JVR is another example, a very talented power forward who was never given the stability, reg minutes or game situations to grow as a player. He was bounced from line to line, benched, never on the PP or PK. ALl of which he does now with the LEafs and he's flourishing , the 11 goals are only one part of how much better he is all over the ice. But to hear the fans here, he 'never did that ' for us and they trash talk him.

With Richards and carter the Kings have a good solid foundation to help the team go deep and contend for years. WIth Schenn and Simmonds, the FLyers don't have that, they are complimentary players and the team behind them has far too many holes.
This. They would have had different roles on the Kings. No way this team goes all the way with Schenn/Stoll as a #2 center, and while Simmonds would have been a nice piece, he wouldn't have pushed us over the top like Carter.

Now Schenn/Simmonds/VORACEK, THAT would have been great (DAMN YOU DL!)

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02-25-2013, 08:56 AM
  #13
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Originally Posted by SCARFACE909 View Post
Not sure if this as been asked on here, but I'm curious if anyone believes if Dean had not made either of those trades if the Kings win the cup last season?

It seems like Philadelphia fans are set on the fact that LA would of won last year with Schenn and Simmonds as opposed to Carter and Richards, because they didn't do much to win, I disagree, and I feel like most Kings fans would too, guess it just makes them feel better to think they weren't important pieces?
I didn't know 12 goals and 28 points combined was not doing much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by topliner967 View Post
I don't think any sensible philly fan thinks that Schenn and Simmonds would have been able to do what Carter and Richards did for the team in the playoffs/stretch run? Or any sensible hockey fan for that matter.
This. /thread

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02-25-2013, 09:16 AM
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Absolutely not. I feel comfortable saying that they wouldn't have even made the playoffs, especially considering the tear they had to go on following the trade deadline/Carter trade just to do that. Obviously the whole season is different with Schenn and Simmonds instead of Richards, not just post-deadline, but I don't think that team makes the playoffs.

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02-25-2013, 10:15 AM
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Say what you want about his performance in philly but Simmonds sucked on the kings and he probably still would on some teams in the west, I'm glad he's gone cause I think his stats are inflated, with that said Richards and Carter are way more important then Simmonds /Schenn would of ever been.

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02-25-2013, 10:47 AM
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Monday Morning (Powerplay) Quarterbacking at it's finest.
The Los Angeles Kings without those two trade would be a completely different animal. Where would Jack Johnson be ... would we still be asking ourselves if he'd ever put it all together ... where would Voinov be ... what about Loktionov, would he get his shot ... would other trades be made ... It's pretty much meaningless to speculate about this.

But, in a theoretical situation where we replace Carter/Richards with Simmonds/Schenn (and lose Jack Johnson in the translation ?) ... no those Los Angeles Fantasy Kings don't win the Stanley Cup. They might make the playoffs, but no way they power through adversity in the playoffs. More likely they'd make an epic collapse like against San Jose in 2011.

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02-25-2013, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCARFACE909 View Post
Not sure if this as been asked on here, but I'm curious if anyone believes if Dean had not made either of those trades if the Kings win the cup last season?

It seems like Philadelphia fans are set on the fact that LA would of won last year with Schenn and Simmonds as opposed to Carter and Richards, because they didn't do much to win, I disagree, and I feel like most Kings fans would too, guess it just makes them feel better to think they weren't important pieces?
I would love to see a post by a Philly fan who stated that, just so I could mock them mercilessly.

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02-25-2013, 10:59 AM
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I understand this is a forum and people want to discuss things ad nauseum but is this even a question? The Kings won the Cup with Richards/Carter. End of story. The rest is fantasy hockey gibberish.

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02-25-2013, 11:10 AM
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Did Schenn and Simmonds win the cup for Philly last year...No! nuff said.

Penner Richards and Carter were huge for us in last year's cup run.

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02-25-2013, 11:14 AM
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A lot of Flyers' fans told us Carther and Richards on the same line just wouldn't work.

Worked out well for the Kings.

Carter scored some huge goals for the Kings in the playoffs, and Richards really set the tone in the Vancouver series.

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02-25-2013, 11:26 AM
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This seams pretty generalizing towards Flyers fans. Careful not to brand them based on the opinions of a few.

The bottom line is that Richards has an extremely rare element to his game come playoff/pressure time. Doughty has been known to exhibit it as well. It is just a 5th gear that can take over and change a game. Those kinds of players are invaluable since, obviously, one game can be the difference between advancing and the golf course.

Carter isn't really involved directly in this conversation, as we didn't acquire him from the Flyers, though he is the best pure goal scorer on the team and he won us a couple of games with clutch goals.

I think Richards and Schenn are going to be a wash eventually. Schenn still has to demonstrate he has that dominant factor in his game, but overall they are going to be similar players. We payed the price of Simmonds to get that type of player immediately rather than having to develop it for another couple of years, and it paid off immensely. Instead of rolling the dice, we got a sure thing. It's hard to put a price on that when it pays off.

Richards and Carter really make this team a dynamic offensive force when every one comes to play, like playoffs, when it counts the most. Them combined offer more to the table than Simmonds and Schenn at this current moment, Schenn and Richards are comparable, but Carter and Simmonds really aren't.

Each pair are playing different systems on different ends of the country, and while the Flyers have the capability of netting 10 goals, they are still going to have the capability of allowing 10 as well. Richards and Carter fit perfectly with our two-way system, and this is really a deal that is a win-win for both teams. They are signed and solidified in our core for years to come. These hypotheticals are meaningless, as no Kings fan would question having Richards and Carter now. Lombardi and this team have proven themselves. The only question that remains is can they do it again?

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02-25-2013, 11:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCARFACE909 View Post
Not sure if this as been asked on here, but I'm curious if anyone believes if Dean had not made either of those trades if the Kings win the cup last season?

It seems like Philadelphia fans are set on the fact that LA would of won last year with Schenn and Simmonds as opposed to Carter and Richards, because they didn't do much to win, I disagree, and I feel like most Kings fans would too, guess it just makes them feel better to think they weren't important pieces?

They are both playing in completely different systems asked to do completely different things. Schenn was a sacraficial lamb most of last year and early this year. he's just now starting to earn some respect from Flyers fans when I listen to how the east coast talks about him on XM radio. That trade may end up working out for both teams but no way we win last year without Richards.

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02-25-2013, 11:34 AM
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-Richards brings a lot of leadership experience.
-Carter brings a lot of proven offensive skills.

-Simmonds was a hard working grinder but lacked leadership
-Schenn had to potential to become a skilled winger/centerman but was unproven.

Could the Kings have won the Stanley Cup without trading Simmonds, Schenn, and/or JMFJ? Maybe, but most likely no.

I love Richards as a player. I know people bash on him for being unproductive but the guy brings a lot of the others things that people dont really pay attention to. He's kind of like our W.Mitchell on defense. I hope he stays as a King for his remaining career. Carts is Carts, he will thrive offensively on any team. He's got one hell of a shot and that's what we needed the most.

I'm just happy that Schenn, Simmonds, and JMFJ are doing well on their teams.

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02-25-2013, 11:51 AM
  #24
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I still think the most important game of the playoffs last year was game 1 against the Canucks. Go down a goal early, we could have been buried very quickly. Richards scores on the PP to tie it up. Then he and Carter combine to set up the game winner, and Richards crushes Burrows to end the game. I truly believe that game set the tone for the entire playoffs and the team realized that night they could play with and beat anyone. That was Richards' best game of the playoffs, and Carter made a huge play too. They don't get enough credit for what they did that game and that series.

So no, I think without them we probably lose a close game on the road in game one like we had the prior two years, and everything would have been different.

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02-25-2013, 12:32 PM
  #25
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No, of course they don't win, w/o Richards (and what he did in Nov, 7 of his 9 goals were GWG or GTG) arguably they are not in the playoffs.

You have to understand, for some Flyers fans trashtalking Richards and Carter is a defense mechanism to make themselves feel better because they are not around anymore. Extremely small and immature biut a defense mechanism nonetheless.

Having seen every game Schenn an d Simmonds have played, there is no way the Kings would have made the playoffs with them. Schenn would not have been on the kings, he'd have been in Manchester a nd Stoll as a #2 all year wouldn't have cut it.

Schenn had 6 goals and 19 points in over 50 game , which didn't upset me. WHat was a concern was how terriblyi disappointing he was the entire year. He was missing in action for most games, invisible. He has offensive skills, but that's where his effectiveness ends. He is terrible in his own zone and the neutral zone, loses most of his board battles and creates costly turnovers that lead to scoring chances and goals. For example, he scored 2 goals agsint the Jets sat, but was stripped of the puck on the boards in tne neutral zone and the Jets scored. He does that alot. He also tends to disappear against skilled teams.

If anybody thinks that Schenn would have come close to creating the fear of playing agaisnt him that Richards does, they' don't know hockey. That Schenn could have dismantled Burrows and Kessler off their game like Richards did, you're dreaming. Winning a championship is more than scoring, it's having that complete game, being a 200 foot \player and playing with a mean streak, a sharp set of fangs.

Carter's foot was injured and he wasn't 100% until the middle of the WCF and from then on he was an impact player. Two of his 8 goals were GWG in the finals.

You have to live in Philly to appreciated how nearsighted some fans are, once a player isn't a Flyer anymore the fans lose their objectivitity and that player becomes much less than he is in reality. JVR is another example, a very talented power forward who was never given the stability, reg minutes or game situations to grow as a player. He was bounced from line to line, benched, never on the PP or PK. ALl of which he does now with the LEafs and he's flourishing , the 11 goals are only one part of how much better he is all over the ice. But to hear the fans here, he 'never did that ' for us and they trash talk him.

With Richards and carter the Kings have a good solid foundation to help the team go deep and contend for years. WIth Schenn and Simmonds, the FLyers don't have that, they are complimentary players and the team behind them has far too many holes.


Yep, this^.

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