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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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02-25-2013, 11:51 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Fine, but did they do a wildcard play-in back then and give even a lower 5th seed an opportunity to be in the Playoffs?
You're right and I don't like the wild card stuff or the inequity in the divisions. I don't think realignment is perfect but I like (And applaud the league) that the league wants to solve the Detroit/Columbus issue, as well as Dallas/Minnesota issues.

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02-25-2013, 11:55 AM
  #402
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Again, concerning the wild-card:

7 - team conference 4/7 = 57%

8 - team conference 4.5/8 = 56% I call it 4.5/8 because only one of them will make the round of 16. As a Numbers guy, it's not perfect, but it's the best justification to 'even' the discrepancy.

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02-25-2013, 11:55 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
It definitely did. Teams absolutely HATED their division opponents.
Exactly. Seeing the following playoff matchup rivalries on a yearly (or near yearly, because of how the first two rounds would work) basis gets me giddy:

Battle of PA
NYR/NYI
BOS/MON
DET/TOR
SJ/VAN
Battle of CA (SJ/LA/ANA)
DAL/COL
CHI/STL
PIT/WSH
CGY/EDM

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02-25-2013, 11:56 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
I totally agree and I sincerely appreciate your acknowledgement of this and concern. But it really doesn''t get much worse with realignment. Many of us fans of west teams are tired of only getting exposure when our teams play the Red Wings anyways. (i.e., we only get on NHL on NBC game of the week if they are playing Red Wings).

I'd go into this realignment and hope that the entire hockey media world puts pressure on the NHL into giving the West more exposure. Just having the Red Wings in the West hasn't done much for us.
Why are you worried about NBC? I HATE when the Rangers on NBC or NBCS. I'd much rather watch them on MSG and then see other teams on the National broadcasts.

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02-25-2013, 11:57 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Again, concerning the wild-card:

7 - team conference 4/7 = 57%

8 - team conference 4.5/8 = 56% I call it 4.5/8 because only one of them will make the round of 16. As a Numbers guy, it's not perfect, but it's the best justification to 'even' the discrepancy.
How do you see the WC work? I would assume in the East Conferences, it would be 4 vs. 5 playing a short series to determine who plays the 1 seed in that conference.

The big issue there is that a 4 seed in the west confs are already in the round of 16, but a 4 seed in the East is in a play-in series. That kinda sucks.

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02-25-2013, 11:58 AM
  #406
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Why are you worried about NBC? I HATE when the Rangers on NBC or NBCS. I'd much rather watch them on MSG and then see other teams on the National broadcasts.
Not worried, just making a point. You do NOT see Sharks vs. Kings now as the sole NHL on NBC game of the week. Realignment doesn't change that.

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02-25-2013, 11:59 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Simple, they apply a tie-breaker like they do now. What happens if two teams are tied for 8th in the conference at the end of the season? One gets in, one doesn't.
That's all good and fine, and I agree. But some here, perhaps you as well, are arguing that it shouldn't matter if the 5th place team is even 10pts lower than the 4th, there should still be this wildcard play-in opportunity. So in one Conference you got a 5th place team 10pts lower, and in the other you've got a 5th and 6th tied both 1 point lower than the 4th spot. Where's the sense in that?

Take the Standings as they actually are after 82 games and go with that. But if the 4th and 5th in an 8-team Conference haven't played an equal home-and-home, and the 5th place team could overtake the 4th with a win in a 6th game between the two... Then wildcard game does perhaps increase the fairness, which relates to the PA's issue about imbalance.


The hellish thing for me in all these threads is in that every new situation that comes up, I find myself supporting the very thing that I was criticizing in the previous thread, because the new situation has presented something even worse and now I have to argue in favor of what was on the table previously. I feel like I've fallen into a blackhole.

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02-25-2013, 12:00 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
Exactly. Seeing the following playoff matchup rivalries on a yearly (or near yearly, because of how the first two rounds would work) basis gets me giddy:

Battle of PA
NYR/NYI
BOS/MON
DET/TOR
SJ/VAN
Battle of CA (SJ/LA/ANA)
DAL/COL
CHI/STL
PIT/WSH
CGY/EDM
Yup, and it was more than that. Pit and Philly only played once as the Pens were bad for most of the 80s and the FLyers were bad in the early 90s. But, you had Rangers-Flyer 4 times in 5 years, Isles-Rangers 3 times in a row, Isles-Caps 3 times in a row Caps Rangers played 3 times in 6 years. Rangers Devils didnt really become a rivalry until their first round match-up in 92.

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02-25-2013, 12:04 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Again, concerning the wild-card:

7 - team conference 4/7 = 57%

8 - team conference 4.5/8 = 56% I call it 4.5/8 because only one of them will make the round of 16. As a Numbers guy, it's not perfect, but it's the best justification to 'even' the discrepancy.
What the hell is that, MNN? Are you actually talking about an extra round of Playoffs? Is that the idea that some have here.

What the hell is this League coming to? 4 Playoff Rounds lasting 3 months isn't enough? And 82-game Season isn't enough to decide which teams should be in the Playoffs?

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02-25-2013, 12:06 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
That's all good and fine, and I agree. But some here, perhaps you as well, are arguing that it shouldn't matter if the 5th place team is even 10pts lower than the 4th, there should still be this wildcard play-in opportunity. So in one Conference you got a 5th place team 10pts lower, and in the other you've got a 5th and 6th tied both 1 point lower than the 4th spot. Where's the sense in that?

Take the Standings as they actually are after 82 games and go with that. But if the 4th and 5th in an 8-team Conference haven't played an equal home-and-home, and the 5th place team could overtake the 4th with a win in a 6th game between the two... Then wildcard game does perhaps increase the fairness, which relates to the PA's issue about imbalance.


The hellish thing for me in all these threads is in that every new situation that comes up, I find myself supporting the very thing that I was criticizing in the previous thread, because the new situation has presented something even worse and now I have to argue in favor of what was on the table previously. I feel like I've fallen into a blackhole.
I'm not a fan of the wild-card or play-in or whatever. Top 4 make it. The two eastern conferences have to beat out 4 teams instead of 3? Too bad. Secondly, I do not think it is going to be as bad as it happened in the 80s because now it is 16 out of 30 instead of 16 out of 21. In 88, Rangers (82) and Penguins (who finished 6th in the Patrick with 81) both had more points than the Whalers who finished 4th in the Adams with 77. They both finished with more than the Blues who were SECOND in the Norris with 76. Yes, you will have seasons where the 5th and 6th of one conference have more than the 4th in another, but I do not think it will be as ridiculous. Maybe 2 or 3 points, but I doubt you see a 5th place team with 6 more points than a 2nd place team.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1988.html

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02-25-2013, 12:07 PM
  #411
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In 91-92, there were two 5 team divisions and two 6 team divisions, with no wild card to "make up" for the fact that it was easier to make it into the playoffs from the 5 team divisions. In 92-93 the league was evened out to 4 6 team divisions.

I'd vote for no wild card, but that's me.

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02-25-2013, 12:07 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
What the hell is that, MNN? Are you actually talking about an extra round of Playoffs? Is that the idea that some have here.

What the hell is this League coming to? 4 Playoff Rounds lasting 3 months isn't enough? And 82-game Season isn't enough to decide which teams should be in the Playoffs?
uhm, no. He is talking about 4.5/8 as in the 4th and 5th teams have their play-in game or short series. Not sure why that is so hard to comprehend.

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02-25-2013, 12:08 PM
  #413
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I think it's hilarious that the big issue here is needing to reduce travel costs, and yet we still have a proposed alignment where the two Florida teams are aligned with the Canadian teams. And, seemingly, nobody sees the problem with this. Or, perhaps, are really bad with geography (but that would describe most Americans today.) And this persistent idea that the only 'rivalries' that can occur is within divisions, and that rivalries are the be-all and end-all of everything. Well, real rivalries in any given sport ebb and flow, they come and go. Yankees-Red Sox, for instance, is NOT a real rivalry at this point in time, it's just a bunch of ESPN-created hype and an excuse for blowhards in both cities to rag on the other. It's become an artificial rivalry now, nothing more. Someday (hopefully never), it might become a legitimate rivalry again, but I hope readers are seeing my point here.

I posted a re-alignment proposal of my own a couple pages back in this thread, but the best thing the NHL could do is probably to leave the structure as is, with just some minor tweaking - moving Nashville to the Southeast (you know, because Nashville is actually in the Southeastern U.S.), Dallas to the Central, Winnipeg to the Northwest, Vancouver to the Pacific (seeing as the city is ON the Pacific Ocean.) There, how hard is that?

P.S. As someone who lives on the East Coast, I have the right to say this: I'm sick to death of my fellow Red Wings fans crying and moaning the start times of games. Get over it, you're not being put out any because you have to (choose to) stay up late a few times a year for West Coast games! Baseball fans deal with it every season, many times a season. We're not Columbus Blue Jackets fans ... oh, wait, there aren't Blue Jackets fans, and nor are any likely to magically appear just because their games might all start at 'normal' times now. (Move that team elsewhere - out of the Eastern time zone, preferably - if the people of Ohio are going to continue to treat them with mass indifference. At least the likes of Florida and Phoenix have excuses in that they are not cold-weather cities and had very little exposure to hockey before the NHL. Columbus, OH, does not have those excuses, and yet they have the worst attendance in the league.) Furthermore, I certainly don't give a crap if the NHLPA thinks their players have to travel too much. You're getting paid millions of dollars per year, just stop the damn whining!

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02-25-2013, 12:10 PM
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Again, concerning the wild-card:

7 - team conference 4/7 = 57%

8 - team conference 4.5/8 = 56% I call it 4.5/8 because only one of them will make the round of 16. As a Numbers guy, it's not perfect, but it's the best justification to 'even' the discrepancy.
Ya know...

Maybe the PA agrees with the League that if the playoffs were top four for the western two conferences, with them playing six games within their conference and two games out of conference, that a strict top-four would be the right thing to do.

Which means the easiest way to fix the eastern two conferences would be to do a play-in of the worst fourth-place team against the best fifth-place team. It aligns the numbers as MNN suggests. That also means having a "cross-over" doesn't kill the starting times of the eastern teams, either.

Heck, I'd be fine with having the eastern two conferences qualifying for the playoffs like a single conference, if the matrix would look something like:
28 games = 2 games per 14 western conference teams
24 games = 3 games against other eastern "conference"
30 games = 4 games against in-conference (4 per team, two teams are five)
Then stack the playoffs accordingly.

Tell me that doesn't make every game in the eastern two conferences mean something.

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02-25-2013, 12:10 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Sunking278 View Post
I think it's hilarious that the big issue here is needing to reduce travel costs, and yet we still have a proposed alignment where the two Florida teams are aligned with the Canadian teams. And, seemingly, nobody sees the problem with this. Or, perhaps, are really bad with geography (but that would describe most Americans today.)
A lot of people see that problem. I do. It's done to simply cater to Canadian snowbird fans who live in Florida in the winter. It's ridiculous that realignment solves so many team issues, but the TB/FLA thing is a issue about fans...of the Leafs/Sens/Habs...

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02-25-2013, 12:13 PM
  #416
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uhm, no. He is talking about 4.5/8 as in the 4th and 5th teams have their play-in game or short series. Not sure why that is so hard to comprehend.
The only sense that 4.5/8 figure make is if he's talking about 4.5 teams making the Playoffs, which means a best-of-3 series at least. Essentially, in an 8-team Conference there'd be 5 teams, not 4, with Playoff games, but the loser of the Wildcard play-in would have like .5 of a Playoff series. The winner would actually have at least 1.5 Playoff series. haha.

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02-25-2013, 12:14 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
I'm not a fan of the wild-card or play-in or whatever. Top 4 make it. The two eastern conferences have to beat out 4 teams instead of 3? Too bad. Secondly, I do not think it is going to be as bad as it happened in the 80s because now it is 16 out of 30 instead of 16 out of 21. In 88, Rangers (82) and Penguins (who finished 6th in the Patrick with 81) both had more points than the Whalers who finished 4th in the Adams with 77. They both finished with more than the Blues who were SECOND in the Norris with 76. Yes, you will have seasons where the 5th and 6th of one conference have more than the 4th in another, but I do not think it will be as ridiculous. Maybe 2 or 3 points, but I doubt you see a 5th place team with 6 more points than a 2nd place team.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1988.html
I'm with you on this.

Ultimately Win your games, specifically divisional games and you get in the PO's.

Lose and you are out.

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02-25-2013, 12:16 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by Sunking278 View Post
I think it's hilarious that the big issue here is needing to reduce travel costs, and yet we still have a proposed alignment where the two Florida teams are aligned with the Canadian teams. And, seemingly, nobody sees the problem with this. Or, perhaps, are really bad with geography (but that would describe most Americans today.)
On top of that, have you seen this:
http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1460
Of course that's with the previous realignment proposal. But still.

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02-25-2013, 12:18 PM
  #419
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wild card is extra games with high stakes and viewership. You better believe they are looking into that.

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02-25-2013, 12:19 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
Which means the easiest way to fix the eastern two conferences would be to do a play-in of the worst fourth-place team against the best fifth-place team. It aligns the numbers as MNN suggests. That also means having a "cross-over" doesn't kill the starting times of the eastern teams, either.

Heck, I'd be fine with having the eastern two conferences qualifying for the playoffs like a single conference, if the matrix would look something like:
28 games = 2 games per 14 western conference teams
24 games = 3 games against other eastern "conference"
30 games = 4 games against in-conference (4 per team, two teams are five)
Then stack the playoffs accordingly.

Tell me that doesn't make every game in the eastern two conferences mean something.
Yes, a crossover between the two Eastern Conferences wouldn't create any kind of TZ issue. But still though, why the wildcard play-in? Just do the crossover and have done with it. If the 5th place team in the one Conference wins the game, there's going to be a crossover regardless.

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02-25-2013, 12:20 PM
  #421
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After thinking on this a bit, I've come to a conclusion regarding the previously accepted alignment vs this current proposed one.

The players issue is that the playoff qualification is uneven. The accepted solution seems to be a wild card scenario. However, the players didn't like a wild card scenario with the previous alignment. It's my guess that the players pushed for the 16 ETZ teams to be together and to have the 2 8 team conferences because they feel it's more fair for the lower travel east teams to have to participate in a wild card scenario than the higher travel west teams.

Occam's razor in effect here. It seems the simplest reason for why this might work for the NHLPA over the previous setup, so....

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02-25-2013, 12:23 PM
  #422
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On top of that, have you seen this:
http://www.hockeyprospectus.com/arti...articleid=1460
Of course that's with the previous realignment proposal. But still.
Thanks for posting this! Out of the proposals in that article, if geography is really a big deal, a conference of DAL/STL/CBJ/NAS/CAR/TB/FL makes sense. You just see it on the map. TB and FLA would be a conf with teams closest to team, Nashville and Carolina, who aren't far from each other, are geographic rivals, and really CBJ and Nashville aren't that far apart either.

Also from Dallas POV they play teams that are fairly close to them too. Ditto for STL (but STL would HATE this for reasons other than geography).


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02-25-2013, 12:23 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by The Wheeled Winger View Post
After thinking on this a bit, I've come to a conclusion regarding the previously accepted alignment vs this current proposed one.

The players issue is that the playoff qualification is uneven. The accepted solution seems to be a wild card scenario. However, the players didn't like a wild card scenario with the previous alignment. It's my guess that the players pushed for the 16 ETZ teams to be together and to have the 2 8 team conferences because they feel it's more fair for the lower travel east teams to have to participate in a wild card scenario than the higher travel west teams.

Occam's razor in effect here. It seems the simplest reason for why this might work for the NHLPA over the previous setup, so....
That's it? It comes down to a difference in travel between two teams in possibly just one game? Hawks fans can say that they lose their primary rival because of that.

Not saying that Detroit shouldn't be in the East, just that this change would be made just for that one small point.

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02-25-2013, 12:26 PM
  #424
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Correcton time:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunking278 View Post
I think it's hilarious that the big issue here is needing to reduce travel costs, and yet we still have a proposed alignment where the two Florida teams are aligned with the Canadian teams. And, seemingly, nobody sees the problem with this. Or, perhaps, are really bad with geography (but that would describe most Americans today.) And this persistent idea that the only 'rivalries' that can occur is within divisions, and that rivalries are the be-all and end-all of everything. Well, real rivalries in any given sport ebb and flow, they come and go. Yankees-Red Sox, for instance, is NOT a real rivalry at this point in time, it's just a bunch of ESPN-created hype and an excuse for blowhards in both cities to rag on the other. It's become an artificial rivalry now, nothing more. Someday (hopefully never), it might become a legitimate rivalry again, but I hope readers are seeing my point here.
The big issue isn't about travel costs. Anyone who has followed this for any length of time knows it's about 1) television and 2) correcting the culmination of the issues regarding the alignment and matrix for the past 15 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunking278 View Post
I posted a re-alignment proposal of my own a couple pages back in this thread, but the best thing the NHL could do is probably to leave the structure as is, with just some minor tweaking - moving Nashville to the Southeast (you know, because Nashville is actually in the Southeastern U.S.), Dallas to the Central, Winnipeg to the Northwest, Vancouver to the Pacific (seeing as the city is ON the Pacific Ocean.) There, how hard is that?
If you have to ask the question, you obviously haven't been paying attention how hard it is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunking278 View Post
P.S. As someone who lives on the East Coast, I have the right to say this: I'm sick to death of my fellow Red Wings fans crying and moaning the start times of games. Get over it, you're not being put out any because you have to (choose to) stay up late a few times a year for West Coast games! Baseball fans deal with it every season, many times a season. We're not Columbus Blue Jackets fans ... oh, wait, there aren't Blue Jackets fans, and nor are any likely to magically appear just because their games might all start at 'normal' times now. (Move that team elsewhere - out of the Eastern time zone, preferably - if the people of Ohio are going to continue to treat them with mass indifference. At least the likes of Florida and Phoenix have excuses in that they are not cold-weather cities and had very little exposure to hockey before the NHL. Columbus, OH, does not have those excuses, and yet they have the worst attendance in the league.) Furthermore, I certainly don't give a crap if the NHLPA thinks their players have to travel too much. You're getting paid millions of dollars per year, just stop the damn whining!
This isn't about the fans of the Red Wings or Blue Jackets. This is about the business of the Red Wings and the Blue Jackets.

Maybe the idea should be to put the Boston Bruins in the Central Division. They can be division mates with the Blues, Blackhawks, Predators and Jets. And instead of the Bruins playing nine games outside of their time zone like they've done for years, they can play 8 games in the Pacific Time Zone, 8 games in the Mountain Time Zone and 16 games in the Central Time Zone.

Then you'll see how the ratings go down for Bruins away games over time. Then you'll see Bruins fans complaining about being the only Eastern Time Zone team in the Western Conference.

And that is specifically why keeping the six-division alignment is no longer an option.

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02-25-2013, 12:28 PM
  #425
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Fans who are worried that this is uneven need to remember that the NHL is well aware of previous grievances from the PA and are in all likelihood sympathetic to the fans regarding this issue. We'll see 32 teams in the league likely by 2015, this wasn't the case when it ws brought up over a year ago.

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