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Old
02-25-2013, 02:28 PM
  #101
adam graves
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
I disagree...thats bad asset & business management. You don't just cut $1.2M in salary without feeling it in multiple ways. I'm glad this franchise doesnt work that way either. They dont make rash decisions anymore and will figure a way to move a goalie soon enough. In the meantime, Markstrom can continue to work on little things in his game that can improve and will be re-called eventually.
This franchise traded Booth 5 games into a season so please dont tell me this franchise doesnt make rash decisions.

The basis for that decision was "accountability".

Markstrom was finally brought up after the team posted 30th of 30 goaltending average. The reason was making the goaltenders accountable.

Markstrom comes up and it is clear and uncontroverted Markstrom is the best of the three goalies. Markstrom can work on "the little things" up here with Tallas, not on a bus touring Texas.

A franchise has a responsibility to put the best product on the ice. Sending down the best of the three goalies is contrary to that.

If the team tanks, the franchise will be "feeling it" in a lot more ways with all the renewals. Those concert tickets wont seduce anyone.


Last edited by adam graves: 02-25-2013 at 02:43 PM.
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02-25-2013, 02:29 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
Yeah, because calling him up and sending him back down as a reward must be great for a person's confidence.

Now, he gets to go back down to the AHL where he has nothing left to prove to play on a team that's just as ****** as the NHL version. Great confidence-booster. All this while we get to watch Jose Theodore and Scott Clemmensen play for no reason because, well, the season seems over. But we're still going to play our mid-30's aged goaltenders because it's great for development!

This is ridiculous.

If this was the plan, they never should've called him up in the first place. Flat out stupid.

The guy plays two good games against the two best teams in the conference and he's sent back down.

I hope Theodore or Clemmensen are gone soon.
Maybe one of them can catch fire and garner some interest at the deadline for a playoff team that needs a backup.

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02-25-2013, 02:29 PM
  #103
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The move is to trade Theodore to any team he'd accept to. He has more trade value than Clemmer. A team would give us a pick to have him as their backup.

Clemmer is fine next year as the backup, especially if the team is better. He's a backup, not a big deal. We could do a lot worse. Just live with it for another year. The guy is 15-7-9 over the past two years with this team. I wish we hadn't re-signed him, but we did so we live with it. 1.2 is fine. He's not the worst backup in the world.

Markstrom should be starting next year, hence the reason why he should be starting now. Give him the experience at this level so he'll be more ready next year! Playing for a garbage team in the AHL accomplishes nothing at this point. The season is over. Let Markstrom play.

Thank you Theodore for your contributions. Hope you win the Cup wherever you go, but it's time to go. He signed a 2-year deal here. Year 1, he helped get us to the playoffs. Year 2, we're not going anywhere so we'll do him a favor and send him to a contender so he can enjoy the last year of his career (since, apparently, he indicated he'd retire here at the time he signed). Everybody is happy.

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02-25-2013, 02:31 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
The move is to trade Theodore to any team he'd accept to. He has more trade value than Clemmer. A team would give us a pick to have him as their backup.

Clemmer is fine next year as the backup, especially if the team is better. He's a backup, not a big deal. We could do a lot worse. Just live with it for another year. The guy is 15-7-9 over the past two years with this team. I wish we hadn't signed him, but we did, so we live with it. 1.2 is fine. He's not the worst backup in the world.

Markstrom should be starting next year, hence the reason why he should be starting now. Give him the experience at this level so he'll be more ready next year! Playing for a garbage team in the AHL accomplishes nothing at this point. The season is over. Let Markstrom play.
Thank you Theodore for your contributions. Hope you win the Cup wherever you go, but it's time to go. He signed a 2-year deal here. Year 1, he helped get us to the playoffs. Year 2, we're not going anywhere so we'll do him a favor and send him to a contender so he can enjoy the last year of his career (since, apparently, he indicated he'd retire here at the time he signed). Everybody is happy.


Id rather theo the better goalie be the backup next yr, again to the premise of dress your best team, but if theo is more marketable and we have to live with the mistake of signing clemmer for TWO yrs, i get that.

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02-25-2013, 02:32 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by PanthersHockey1 View Post
AG a shrewd business person salvages short term success for long run growth. What team sells more tickets in the long run the one that finishes between 10-13th in the conference every year or one that finishes 14-15th a couple of years and then is a perennial playoff contender the next 10. Thats what a top 5 draft pick can secure us imo.

I might be wrong with the confidence part, but Id rather save Markstrom's stellar play for when we can actually win games. The rest of our team is absolute garbage, I would hate to see him be the only player showing up and getting same results (we did that for 10 years and the goalie's name was Roberto Luongo)
I would love it if Jacob Markstrom's worst-case future scenario = becoming the next Roberto Luongo.

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02-25-2013, 02:39 PM
  #106
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Id rather theo the better goalie be the backup next yr, again to the premise of dress your best team, but if theo is more marketable and we have to live with the mistake of signing clemmer for TWO yrs, i get that.
I think Theo is the better goaltender too, but there's no guarantee he even wants to play again next year. At the time he signed here, he made it seem like it would be his last contract.

Edit: Also, if he really likes it here that much and the feeling is mutual, he can just sign here again after the year. Theodore should be traded before the deadline.

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02-25-2013, 02:45 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
This franchise traded Booth 5 games into a season so please dont tell me this franchise doesnt make rash decisions.

The basis for that decision was "accountability".

Markstrom was finally brought up after the team posted 30th of 30 goaltending average. The reason was making the goaltenders accountable.

Markstrom comes up and it is clear and uncontroverted Markstrom is the best of the three goalies. Markstrom can work on "the little things" up here with Tallas, not on a bus touring Texas.

A franchise has a responsibility to put the best product on the ice. Sending down the best of the three goalies is contrary to that.

If the team tanks, theyll be "feeling it" in a lot more ways. Those concert tickets wont seduce anyone.
Sorry the Booth trade was more than a yr in the making and Tallon has already confirmed that before. Saying that was a rash decision is not accurate at all. Yes it was about accountability and he saw more than a yr of Booth to judge whether he was the right player for the team he wanted to build.

Markstrom is the most talented of the 3, sure and probably gives us a good chance to win each game. But its not just about talent & winning games. Its also a business and that is the true responsibility of the franchise in reality. They need to balance the business side and sports side. So right now the best balanced decision was to send Markstrom back. It wont hurt him in any way and wont hurt the franchise either, contrary to your beliefs.

They are not tanking just because they demoted Markstrom. No team would openly be able to tank without trading off a bunch of players first and just icing an AHL team like we did just prior to hiring Tallon. Theo will be starting tomorrow and he'll be fine. Theo was playing awesome to start the season when everyone was out injured and kept us in those games even if we lost. If the team plays half way decent in front of him, he gives us a decent chance to win games. Stop assuming because of demoting a player that is not waiver eligible that the team is tanking right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erick View Post
The move is to trade Theodore to any team he'd accept to. He has more trade value than Clemmer. A team would give us a pick to have him as their backup.

Clemmer is fine next year as the backup, especially if the team is better. He's a backup, not a big deal. We could do a lot worse. Just live with it for another year. The guy is 15-7-9 over the past two years with this team. I wish we hadn't re-signed him, but we did so we live with it. 1.2 is fine. He's not the worst backup in the world.

Markstrom should be starting next year, hence the reason why he should be starting now. Give him the experience at this level so he'll be more ready next year! Playing for a garbage team in the AHL accomplishes nothing at this point. The season is over. Let Markstrom play.

Thank you Theodore for your contributions. Hope you win the Cup wherever you go, but it's time to go. He signed a 2-year deal here. Year 1, he helped get us to the playoffs. Year 2, we're not going anywhere so we'll do him a favor and send him to a contender so he can enjoy the last year of his career (since, apparently, he indicated he'd retire here at the time he signed). Everybody is happy.
I agree completely here. Yes I'm not a huge fan of Clemmensen but he is what he is. We signed him and I think we're probably stuck with him. Theo probably will get the majority of the starts and will attract interest by the trade deadline. Let him go to a team thats contending and then he can retire. Maybe even send him back to Montreal to finish out his career. He'll at least garner an asset back and would benefit us long term.

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02-25-2013, 03:01 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Coolburn View Post
Sorry the Booth trade was more than a yr in the making and Tallon has already confirmed that before. Saying that was a rash decision is not accurate at all. Yes it was about accountability and he saw more than a yr of Booth to judge whether he was the right player for the team he wanted to build.

Markstrom is the most talented of the 3, sure and probably gives us a good chance to win each game. But its not just about talent & winning games. Its also a business and that is the true responsibility of the franchise in reality. They need to balance the business side and sports side. So right now the best balanced decision was to send Markstrom back. It wont hurt him in any way and wont hurt the franchise either, contrary to your beliefs.

They are not tanking just because they demoted Markstrom. No team would openly be able to tank without trading off a bunch of players first and just icing an AHL team like we did just prior to hiring Tallon. Theo will be starting tomorrow and he'll be fine. Theo was playing awesome to start the season when everyone was out injured and kept us in those games even if we lost. If the team plays half way decent in front of him, he gives us a decent chance to win games. Stop assuming because of demoting a player that is not waiver eligible that the team is tanking right now.
I agree completely here. Yes I'm not a huge fan of Clemmensen but he is what he is. We signed him and I think we're probably stuck with him. Theo probably will get the majority of the starts and will attract interest by the trade deadline. Let him go to a team thats contending and then he can retire. Maybe even send him back to Montreal to finish out his career. He'll at least garner an asset back and would benefit us long term.
When this franchise learns the best buisness decision is to put the best prodcut on the ice, maybe theyll become as successful as the Heat.

Theo was awesome on the beginning of the season?

When he gave up 4 goals gm2?
Or the awesome 7 goal performance gm 5 v Philly?
Oh you must be talking about the awesome performance gm 6 in giving up 5 to Tampa!!

Come on, be credible....Theo was awesome a lot last year and i thank him for that; but he has been nothing more than medicore at best this yr.

Its not an assumption, its a nexis when you demote the best goalie, that short term finances rule over best hockey decisions. And im tired of it.

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02-25-2013, 03:11 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
I would love it if Jacob Markstrom's worst-case future scenario = becoming the next Roberto Luongo.
Not if the team he plays for has no talent, no work ethic, and no coaching.

I hate Jaques Martin but he was right about building a team from the net out. We have the goalie we just need the defense and offense. It takes time and if it means a couple of years of bad attendance to build a stanley cup champion then so be it.

There seems to be a dichotomy of the direction of the team's direction based on whether or not you invested money into season tickets or not, which is understandable. If I invested thousands of dollars into this team every season my opinion would change as well. At the end of the day, we all want the team to do well.

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02-25-2013, 03:16 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam graves View Post
When this franchise learns the best buisness decision is to put the best prodcut on the ice, maybe theyll become as successful as the Heat.

Theo was awesome on the beginning of the season?

When he gave up 4 goals gm2?
Or the awesome 7 goal performance gm 5 v Philly?
Oh you must be talking about the awesome performance gm 6 in giving up 5 to Tampa!!

Come on, be credible....Theo was awesome a lot last year and i thank him for that; but he has been nothing more than medicore at best this yr.

Its not an assumption, its a nexis when you demote the best goalie, that short term finances rule over best hockey decisions. And im tired of it.
Look, face it...the ownership of the Heat is a BILLIONAIRE and the Panthers ownership is a collection of millionaires. Its not comparing apples to apples and you know it. Lets just stop with that right now.

Yes Theo had some amazing moments to start THIS season. But you cant expect him to stand on his head for a full 60 mins, no goalie does. They can stand on their head for several mins at a time but its not sustainable. So how many of those games in the first 5-7 can be attributed to the team playing poorly in front of him and how many are actually Theo's fault only. He then struggled a bit as guys were coming back into the lineup, that's true. But I dont feel like Theo is the problem at all and gives us a good chance to win right now if the team in front of him plays good defense.

Look we havent won a game with Markstrom in net either so how exactly is it a "goaltending talent" issue anyway?? Markstrom or Theo, clearly it matters who is playing in front of them moreso than their performance (as proven by the Philly game where Clemmensen won). So I still can't see this as just a financial only move like you do. If thats your take, fine but I completely disagree and feel like you're only seeing it that way because we're struggling on the ice as an entire team. If the team was playing solid defense all together (both forwards & defense) and we were winning with Markstrom in net, thats a different story. But thats not the case and seems like it doesnt matter who is in net right now, we're not winning with the effort the players are giving out there.

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02-25-2013, 03:20 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by PanthersHockey1 View Post
Not if the team he plays for has no talent, no work ethic, and no coaching.

I hate Jaques Martin but he was right about building a team from the net out. We have the goalie we just need the defense and offense. It takes time and if it means a couple of years of bad attendance to build a stanley cup champion then so be it.

There seems to be a dichotomy of the direction of the team's direction based on whether or not you invested money into season tickets or not, which is understandable. If I invested thousands of dollars into this team every season my opinion would change as well. At the end of the day, we all want the team to do well.
I don't get what you mean. Playing for bad teams did not hurt Roberto Luongo's career/confidence. The guy is still one of the best goalies in hockey today. In his prime, he was top-3, at least. What's the big deal?

At what point is Markstrom just going to learn up here? Is there something in Markstrom's contract that says he can only be in the NHL if the team in front of him is great? Is he not going to be here next year? I'm guessing the team next year is not going to be much greater. I'm sure it will be better, but we won't be looking like Stanley Cup contenders on paper next year either, realistically speaking. The coach is definitely going to be the same guy next year, and I'm not sure why he's disliked now.

It's a #'s game right now. Theodore and Clemmer are still under contract, and I guess that Tallon hasn't found a trade partner for Theo yet. Can't carry 3 goalies with guys coming back. It's as simple as that. There's really no explanation for it.

The San Antonio Rampage are not good either so it's not as if Markstrom is going to be enjoying W's every night for his performances down there. If anything, it would probably hurt a person's confidence more to lose in a lesser league. I wouldn't be surprised if Markstrom struggles in the AHL now for a bit. Playing on a bad team with nothing to play for, really.

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02-25-2013, 03:23 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Erick View Post
I don't get what you mean. Playing for bad teams did not hurt Roberto Luongo's career/confidence. The guy is still one of the best goalies in hockey today. In his prime, he was top-3, at least. What's the big deal?

At what point is Markstrom just going to learn up here? Is there something in Markstrom's contract that says he can only be in the NHL if the team in front of him is great? Is he not going to be here next year? I'm guessing the team next year is not going to be much greater. I'm sure it will be better, but we won't be looking like Stanley Cup contenders on paper next year, either, realistically speaking. The coach is definitely going to be the same guy next year, and I'm not sure why he's disliked now.

It's a #'s game right now. Theodore and Clemmer are still under contract and I guess that Tallon hasn't found a trade partner for Theo yet. Can't carry 3 goalies with guys coming back. It's as simple as that. There's really no explanation for it.

The San Antonio Rampage are not good either so it's not as if Markstrom is going to be enjoying W's every night for his performances down there. If anything, it would probably hurt a person's confidence more to lose in a lesser league. I wouldn't be surprised if Markstrom struggles in the AHL now for a bit. Playing on a bad team with nothing to play for, really.
What im arguing is that by having a great goalie like luongo or markstrom is that it creates an environment for the team playing in front of him to be lazy. I'm concerned that Markstrom doing well in front of a bad team masks the fact that this team is not good and does not create any accountability for the other players on the team. This scenario doomed us to mediocrity during the luongo era and I dont want that to happen again.

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02-25-2013, 03:29 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by PanthersHockey1 View Post
What im arguing is that by having a great goalie like luongo or markstrom is that it creates an environment for the team playing in front of him to be lazy. I'm concerned that Markstrom doing well in front of a bad team masks the fact that this team is not good and does not create any accountability for the other players on the team. This scenario doomed us to mediocrity during the luongo era and I dont want that to happen again.
It seems like you're implying we should trade Markstrom.

Teams don't play worse because the goalie is better. That environment is not created because the goalie is great/has great potential. Teams play bad because they're bad. We've played the same way in front of Theodore and Clemmensen this year, as well.

I guess you're saying you don't want Markstrom stealing points since it would prevent the team from tanking? That would make more sense, maybe. But, I'll point to the past two games in which he played pretty well, and we got 0 points.

Regardless of who's in net right now, it seems like the team's results are going to be pretty similar. I hope Theo is traded soon, and Markstrom gets the experience this year. That way when we start up again next year, Markstrom will be familiar with hockey at the NHL level. Marky should be starting at some point this year (I'm guessing it'll happen later on). Nothing to lose.

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02-25-2013, 03:32 PM
  #114
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It seems like you're implying we should trade Markstrom.

Teams don't play worse because the goalie is better. That environment is not created because the goalie is great/has great potential. Teams play bad because they're bad. We've played the same way in front of Theodore and Clemmensen this year, as well.

I guess you're saying you don't want Markstrom stealing points since it would prevent the team from tanking? That would make more sense, maybe. But, I'll point to the past two games in which he played pretty well, and we got 0 points.

Regardless of who's in net right now, it seems like the team's results are going to be pretty similar. I hope Theo is traded soon, and Markstrom gets the experience this year. That way when we start up again next year, Markstrom will be familiar with hockey at the NHL level. Marky should be starting at some point this year (I'm guessing it'll happen later on). Nothing to lose.
More the 2nd statement than the first. But i agree i dont think this will be the last time we see markstrom this season. I think its just a timing issue until tallon can put a trade together for theodore.

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02-25-2013, 03:38 PM
  #115
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Look, face it...the ownership of the Heat is a BILLIONAIRE and the Panthers ownership is a collection of millionaires. Its not comparing apples to apples and you know it. Lets just stop with that right now.

Yes Theo had some amazing moments to start THIS season. But you cant expect him to stand on his head for a full 60 mins, no goalie does. They can stand on their head for several mins at a time but its not sustainable. So how many of those games in the first 5-7 can be attributed to the team playing poorly in front of him and how many are actually Theo's fault only. He then struggled a bit as guys were coming back into the lineup, that's true. But I dont feel like Theo is the problem at all and gives us a good chance to win right now if the team in front of him plays good defense.
Look we havent won a game with Markstrom in net either so how exactly is it a "goaltending talent" issue anyway?? Markstrom or Theo, clearly it matters who is playing in front of them moreso than their performance (as proven by the Philly game where Clemmensen won). So I still can't see this as just a financial only move like you do. If thats your take, fine but I completely disagree and feel like you're only seeing it that way because we're struggling on the ice as an entire team. If the team was playing solid defense all together (both forwards & defense) and we were winning with Markstrom in net, thats a different story. But thats not the case and seems like it doesnt matter who is in net right now, we're not winning with the effort the players are giving out there.


My reasonable expectation as a consumer is you make your best effort to entertain by putting the best product out there. Its not reasonable for me to expect to wholesale change the D. Its reasonable for me to expect to play the best goalie available, and give me the paying fan the best chance. The franchise makes the hockey decision and called him up for accountablity, he plays his heart out against arguably the 2 best teams in the NHL. The franchise then makes the buisness decision to send him down, and we all know why, no one is being fooled.

We are going in circles so we will have to agree to disagree. I appreciate the back and forth.


Last edited by adam graves: 02-25-2013 at 04:04 PM. Reason: spelling
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02-25-2013, 05:40 PM
  #116
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Markstrom just had a twitter Q&A while sitting at the airport delayed...such a cool kid.

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02-25-2013, 06:18 PM
  #117
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They have to make room for Versteeg and Upshall to return, but I think this is just temporary. I think Marky will be recalled once Theodore or Clemmer are moved in the next couple weeks. And they won't be the only ones leaving town. I'm sure the situation was explained to Marky.

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02-25-2013, 06:19 PM
  #118
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Markstrom just had a twitter Q&A while sitting at the airport delayed...such a cool kid.
We are going to like a lot of these young kids! Fresh blood that should help our team out of that former loser mentality.

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02-26-2013, 10:53 PM
  #119
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#wewantmarkstrom
#wewantmarkstrom
#wewantmarkstrom.

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