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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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02-25-2013, 03:10 PM
  #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
Two things.

Number 1:Link to mlive, with an article that contains this quote (emphasis mine):
Number 2:In a realignment scenario, the two-conference, six-division model is dead. The League wants to move to a home-and-away model for all teams, and most likely a four-division or four-conference setup.

The status quo has already been upended, and it would have been in effect this year if the NHLPA just rubber-stamped it like they usually do.
Again, I think it's important that I say first that I don't want to sound like I'm against Detroit being in an eastern Conference. But now, how does Detroit being in an eastern Conference help TV ratings for all the teams in the West? You're talking about improving Detroit's ratings, while likely hurting the ratings of a whole lot of teams in the West.

In fact, how has having all the ETZ teams (other than Detroit and Columbus) separated from the Rest of the League helped those non-ETZ teams with better TV ratings?

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02-25-2013, 03:11 PM
  #452
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No. There were teams with 20+ less points in the playoff over the fifth place Patrick division team a couple of times iirc. Example: 87-88 Rangers finish 5th with 82 points while the Whalers, Blues, Hawks, Leafs, and Jets all had fewer points (Leafs had 52!, ahead of the 51 on the North Stars). Hell, the Blues were a 2 seed with 76 points in the 80 game season. The Penguins finished 6th in the patrick with 81 points, more than all of those other teams.


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02-25-2013, 03:11 PM
  #453
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About this explanation I made:

7-teams - No wild card 4/7 = 57%

8-teams - wild card means the 4th and 5th play a short play-in. Maybe a 1-game, or a 3-game series.

The reasoning goes: 8-team conferences, not enough teams in the playoffs (is, greater chance to make the playoffs in the 7-team conferences). So, we have to increase the # of playoff teams in the big conferences. That's why the 5th team gets a chance. But, since it really is another round, it's not a full chance.

I think that is the reasoning, but I hate it. I have said often here that I think a 7/8/7/8 is better. The home/home with everyone and the rest in your group is fine to me. But, then, I would do a top-8.

That wild-card is ugly in my eyes. But, $$ in the eyes of the league and the PA.

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02-25-2013, 03:14 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
No. There were teams with 20+ less points in the playoff over the fifth place Patrick division team a couple of times iirc.
What a relief to have the MountainHawk on my side for a change. Imagine giving a 5th place team, with 10 to 20 pts less than the 4th place team, a shot at gaining a Playoff spot by way of a wildcard game.

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02-25-2013, 03:16 PM
  #455
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And, I still think that the realignment has nothing to do with the PHX situation. I say that because I don't think Bettman, who is a lawyer at heart, wants anyone to be able to guess what will happen there. He wants all the information, and he wants no one else to have any.

So, this 7/7/8/8 is a move for TV dollars because all the ETZ teams are in like conferences. And, it happens that that makes the 'wild-card' convenient for the two Easternmost conferences.

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02-25-2013, 03:17 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
What a relief to have the MountainHawk on my side for a change. Imagine giving a 5th place team, with 10 to 20 pts less than the 4th place team, a shot at gaining a Playoff spot by way of a wildcard game.
That's why I hate in MoreOrr. But, get used to it. It will happen. This league is desperate for cash. It's why they have so often made quick decisions on things that really are foolish - like the 'loser point' and shootouts, for example. All for the sake of $$

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02-25-2013, 03:20 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
What a relief to have the MountainHawk on my side for a change. Imagine giving a 5th place team, with 10 to 20 pts less than the 4th place team, a shot at gaining a Playoff spot by way of a wildcard game.
I didn't say I agreed with the wild card, just saying they didn't have one in the past.

;-)

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02-25-2013, 03:22 PM
  #458
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Man, all this handwringing over Detroit is unbelievable. People are acting as if the Red Wings are soley responsible for keeping the Western Conference, more specifically the Central Division, afloat.

I think we'll be just fine with them leaving the Central.

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02-25-2013, 03:22 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
how does Detroit being in an eastern Conference help TV ratings for all the teams in the West?
Toronto was the same situation. They didn't care. Why would Detroit?

The only reason I can see that Detroit stayed in the west when Toronto left was because the only other team that might have been in the west was Atlanta, since I think Atlanta is further west than Detroit or Columbus, or at least real close to it. Plus, of course, the NE and Atlantic wanted their divisions. Which is why as soon as the Thrashers left Atlanta, everything seemed to be up for grabs.

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02-25-2013, 03:23 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
I didn't say I agreed with the wild card, just saying they didn't have one in the past.

;-)
Well I damn well hope you didn't say you agreed with it. Because if you did then, well, we'd be on opposite sides as usual.

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02-25-2013, 03:28 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Toronto was the same situation. They didn't care. Why would Detroit?

The only reason I can see that Detroit stayed in the west when Toronto left was because the only other team that might have been in the west was Atlanta, since I think Atlanta is further west than Detroit or Columbus, or at least real close to it. Plus, of course, the NE and Atlantic wanted their divisions. Which is why as soon as the Thrashers left Atlanta, everything seemed to be up for grabs.
That's just it, it appears that no one east of the ETZ-CTZ boundary cares. I don't know why the League added non-ETZ teams, plus the Florida teams, to begin with. Perhaps they could bare to be with those CTZ teams, but it almost seems as though the East wished that the West and the Florida teams didn't exist. Annex them into a separate little sub-League of their own.

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02-25-2013, 03:44 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Again, I think it's important that I say first that I don't want to sound like I'm against Detroit being in an eastern Conference. But now, how does Detroit being in an eastern Conference help TV ratings for all the teams in the West? You're talking about improving Detroit's ratings, while likely hurting the ratings of a whole lot of teams in the West.

In fact, how has having all the ETZ teams (other than Detroit and Columbus) separated from the Rest of the League helped those non-ETZ teams with better TV ratings?
I think local ratings are helped when the team is it's "native" time zone, and this would work both ways. For the Wings, the real "lift" would be be in the DET metro area where a much higher % of the games would be on in "prime time" compared to the 10:30pm-2:00am time slot for a PTZ game. However, that works both ways, and I have to think that for example the Sharks ratings take a hit when there is a 4:00 PM PTZ start in DET as well. Under the "new" proposal, I think that the all the Conferences are within one time zone, and most are in the same.

I don't think that anyone is suggesting that the loss of the Wings would negatively impact western conference team TV ratings. Loss at the gate - sure, because people are more likely to spend direct $'s for a premier product, but less likely to have the opponent impact their decision to watch the game on TV.

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02-25-2013, 03:46 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
That's just it, it appears that no one east of the ETZ-CTZ boundary cares. I don't know why the League added non-ETZ teams, plus the Florida teams, to begin with. Perhaps they could bare to be with those CTZ teams, but it almost seems as though the East wished that the West and the Florida teams didn't exist. Annex them into a separate little sub-League of their own.
This is a troll post right? You don't actually believe what you just wrote, correct?

"sub-League"???

Right....

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02-25-2013, 03:46 PM
  #464
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Being out west has advantages and disadvantages as a sports fan. Football is over by 8-9 pm PT, so there is no being exhausted for midnight or later games. However, the cities are further apart, so there is more travelling. Eastern teams are at a much bigger disadvantage on a Western road trip trying to play games at 10:30pm-2am their time than when the Western teams come east for a 4:30 western time start.

I don't see why the Eastern teams should give up their travel advantage, unless the Western teams would agree to a standard 7:00-8:00 pm ETZ start time league wide.

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02-25-2013, 03:52 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by MuckOG View Post
This is a troll post right? You don't actually believe what you just wrote, correct?

"sub-League"???

Right....
In part I do. I sincerely believe that the western teams want more Seasonal interaction with the east. It may not be great for TV ratings, but it isn't bad for them because there is still interest in the West for those eastern teams. And as Beukeboom Fan just pointed out, it's also big at the gate to have those eastern teams to town. However, it seems clearly every day that the east would prefer to have nothing to do with the west. A lot of ETZ teams would be just as happy to never have to play teams out of there Time Zone at all.

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02-25-2013, 03:57 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
In part I do. I sincerely believe that the western teams want more Seasonal interaction with the east. It may not be great for TV ratings, but it isn't bad for them because there is still interest in the West for those eastern teams. And as Beukeboom Fan just pointed out, it's also big at the gate to have those eastern teams to town. However, it seems clearly every day that the east would prefer to have nothing to do with the west. A lot of ETZ teams would be just as happy to never have to play teams out of there Time Zone at all.
It's nothing inherent with the East...it's more about the players that happen to play on teams that in the East (Malkin, Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin, et al). If Crosby and Malkin played for the Avs, no one would care about the Penguins. If Ovechkin played for the Kings, no one would care about the Caps.

This is all cyclical...back in the 80's the Oilers were the toast of the League.

Speaking as a Wild fan, I don't care about the East...what I care about is getting in with the Central (Chicago, St Louis, Winnipeg and Dallas)...I could give a rip if the Devils, or Hurricanes, or Sabres come to Minnesota.

I'm old enough to remember how little draw the Red Wings had in the 70's and 80's when they were bad...you couldn't GIVE away a ticket when they rolled into town.


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02-25-2013, 03:58 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Being out west has advantages and disadvantages as a sports fan. Football is over by 8-9 pm PT, so there is no being exhausted for midnight or later games. However, the cities are further apart, so there is more travelling. Eastern teams are at a much bigger disadvantage on a Western road trip trying to play games at 10:30pm-2am their time than when the Western teams come east for a 4:30 western time start.

I don't see why the Eastern teams should give up their travel advantage, unless the Western teams would agree to a standard 7:00-8:00 pm ETZ start time league wide.
TV-wise, that's a reasonable idea. But gate-wise, that's not a reasonable idea.
If you're PTZ, and you have a game in town against an ETZ team, I think the earliest you can expect to start would have to be 6:00 PT.

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02-25-2013, 03:58 PM
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Again, I think it's important that I say first that I don't want to sound like I'm against Detroit being in an eastern Conference. But now, how does Detroit being in an eastern Conference help TV ratings for all the teams in the West? You're talking about improving Detroit's ratings, while likely hurting the ratings of a whole lot of teams in the West.

In fact, how has having all the ETZ teams (other than Detroit and Columbus) separated from the Rest of the League helped those non-ETZ teams with better TV ratings?
It's not about National contracts. It's about the Wings own TV contracts. Their own ratings for games in the EST are far higher than games starting even in the CST. I ask any EST team to go through a season of the same schedule as Detroit has done for years. The complaining would be endless.

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02-25-2013, 04:03 PM
  #469
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Originally Posted by MuckOG View Post
It has nothing inherent with the East...it's more about the players that happen to play on teams that in the East (Malkin, Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin, et al). If Crosby and Malkin played for the Avs, no one would care about the Penguins. If Ovechkin played for the Kings, no one would care about the Caps.

This is all cyclical...back in the 80's the Oilers were the toast of the League.

Speaking as a Wild fan, I don't care about the East...what I care about is getting in with the Central (Chicago, St Louis, Winnipeg and Dallas)...I could give a rip if the Devils, or Hurricanes, or Sabres come to Minnesota.
You see, now if you're serious, why are so many hockey fans so regional and enemy-tribal? Do Minnesota fans in MLB not care about teams from the P/M&E Time Zones? The same goes for the NBA and the NFL.

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02-25-2013, 04:07 PM
  #470
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It's not about National contracts. It's about the Wings own TV contracts. Their own ratings for games in the EST are far higher than games starting even in the CST. I ask any EST team to go through a season of the same schedule as Detroit has done for years. The complaining would be endless.
Well, I'm talking about Chicago's own TV ratings, St Louis' own TV ratings, Anaheim's TV ratings, Nashville's TV ratings, San Jose's TV ratings, Colorado's TV ratings, etc, etc, when Detroit comes to town (as a team in their Conference or Division). But also their gate sales when Detroit comes to town as a Conference rival. And also how it would be if several of the Eastern Conference teams were actually Conference rivals against western teams and how that could be a positive $-wise for those western teams.

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02-25-2013, 04:08 PM
  #471
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TV-wise, that's a reasonable idea. But gate-wise, that's not a reasonable idea.
If you're PTZ, and you have a game in town against an ETZ team, I think the earliest you can expect to start would have to be 6:00 PT.
Of course it is not reasonable. Nor is it reasonable to ask ETZ teams to play 20+ games in the MTZ and PTZ given the biological clock disadvantage.

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02-25-2013, 04:10 PM
  #472
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No. There were teams with 20+ less points in the playoff over the fifth place Patrick division team a couple of times iirc. Example: 87-88 Rangers finish 5th with 82 points while the Whalers, Blues, Hawks, Leafs, and Jets all had fewer points (Leafs had 52!, ahead of the 51 on the North Stars). Hell, the Blues were a 2 seed with 76 points in the 80 game season. The Penguins finished 6th in the patrick with 81 points, more than all of those other teams.
That was when you had 4 out 5 teams in those divisions making the play-offs. You won't see huge discrepencies when it is 4 out of 7 or 4 out of 8. You will see a team miss the play-offs by finishing 5th with a better record than the 4th place team of another, but only a few points. Happens in the NFL where a team misses the play-offs while having a better record than a team that wins another division. People complain, but it doesn't hurt the NFL play-offs in the least.

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02-25-2013, 04:10 PM
  #473
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
What a relief to have the MountainHawk on my side for a change. Imagine giving a 5th place team, with 10 to 20 pts less than the 4th place team, a shot at gaining a Playoff spot by way of a wildcard game.
Imagine that.

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02-25-2013, 04:11 PM
  #474
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That was when you had 4 out 5 teams in those divisions making the play-offs. You won't see huge discrepencies when it is 4 out of 7 or 4 out of 8. You will see a team miss the play-offs by finishing 5th with a better record than the 4th place team of another, but only a few points. Happens in the NFL where a team misses the play-offs while having a better record than a team that wins another division. People complain, but it doesn't hurt the NFL play-offs in the least.
Ha, why not? Have you got some data to base that on?

These days, because the manufactured parity, a 5pt difference in the Standings is probably equal to about a 15pt difference back then. Still doesn't make the lower team any more Playoff worthy than they used to be, just not as blatantly obvious.


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02-25-2013, 04:12 PM
  #475
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You see, now if you're serious, why are so many hockey fans so regional and enemy-tribal? Do Minnesota fans in MLB not care about teams from the P/M&E Time Zones? The same goes for the NBA and the NFL.
I care about them when we play them....I pay attention to every team, not just the ones I root for.

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