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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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02-25-2013, 03:15 PM
  #476
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Well, I'm talking about Chicago's own TV ratings, St Louis' own TV ratings, Anaheim's TV ratings, Nashville's TV ratings, San Jose's TV ratings, Colorado's TV ratings, etc, etc, when Detroit comes to town (as a team in their Conference or Division). But also their gate sales when Detroit comes to town as a Conference rival. And also how it would be if several of the Eastern Conference teams were actually Conference rivals against western teams and how that could be a positive $-wise for those western teams.
Fair comments and it's actually been an argument from the other teams over the years. Especially Phoenix, Anaheim, Colorado and Dallas. At some point though, teams need to be self sufficient. Detroit shouldnt have to suffer because Anaheim needs a few gate receipts over the year or Colorado's local tv ratings sky rocket.

When the Rangers go to Phoenix the building is full too and the local tv ratings go up. For the sake of fairness, could we ask the Rangers to move into this position for the good of the league? No. Just like we cannot continue to ask Detroit to do so. People have this opinion that since they've been doing it all these years, they should just accept it. They've been screaming at the league since Toronto went east.

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02-25-2013, 03:15 PM
  #477
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In part I do. I sincerely believe that the western teams want more Seasonal interaction with the east. It may not be great for TV ratings, but it isn't bad for them because there is still interest in the West for those eastern teams. And as Beukeboom Fan just pointed out, it's also big at the gate to have those eastern teams to town. However, it seems clearly every day that the east would prefer to have nothing to do with the west. A lot of ETZ teams would be just as happy to never have to play teams out of there Time Zone at all.
I don't get why you are so worried about fans in the eastern time zone being interested in teams out west? Do you think Rangers fans care if people in Calgary or LA are interested in their games? Do you think Sharks fans care if fans in Philadelphia are interested in their games?

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02-25-2013, 03:20 PM
  #478
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I care about them when we play them....I pay attention to every team, not just the ones I root for.
So are you saying then that if more ETZ teams were in the Wilds' Conference that then you'd give them more attention?

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02-25-2013, 03:22 PM
  #479
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Under the new proposal which still hasn't been officially released, do we know how third and fourth round of playoffs would work? Could Boston and LA meet in the third round?

Something tells me as much as we fans don't want that, the East-centric NHL does because they would love and eat up Pittsburgh vs. Boston SCF (For example, I guess if Detroit is now in an East conf, they would also love DET vs. PIT again), even if the downside is that one year they could have San Jose vs. Dallas SCF.

If this is how the NHL will do latter rounds, one point in the NHL's favor is that this is more like NFL/MLB, where some fans do enjoy (or dream about) match ups between teams that are not too far from each other geographically, (Bay Bridge Series, Subway Series, a Giants/Jets or Niners/Raiders SB, etc).

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02-25-2013, 03:24 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
I don't get why you are so worried about fans in the eastern time zone being interested in teams out west? Do you think Rangers fans care if people in Calgary or LA are interested in their games? Do you think Sharks fans care if fans in Philadelphia are interested in their games?
I'm fairly sure that Rangers and Flyers fans really aren't that interested in western games and their teams; if that answers your question.

My favorite teams are Boston, Carolina, Vancouver, St Louis, San Jose.
My most hated teams are Montreal, Edmonton, the Rangers, and Anaheim.

So my interest, like and dislike, isn't Time Zone related.

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02-25-2013, 03:24 PM
  #481
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I still think it would be awesome if at the draft, they just randomly drew the conferences into the Wales and Campbell conference finals pairings.

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02-25-2013, 03:25 PM
  #482
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
In part I do. I sincerely believe that the western teams want more Seasonal interaction with the east. It may not be great for TV ratings, but it isn't bad for them because there is still interest in the West for those eastern teams. And as Beukeboom Fan just pointed out, it's also big at the gate to have those eastern teams to town. However, it seems clearly every day that the east would prefer to have nothing to do with the west. A lot of ETZ teams would be just as happy to never have to play teams out of there Time Zone at all.
Like it's been said - I think the desireability of the EC teams relate to the stars that currently play there, rather than where they play. I don't think that anyone out there in a Western conference town is thrilled when the Sabres, Islanders, or Panthers (nothing against those teams BTW) roll into town. I do think that just due to the age of the franchise that there is a lot more "nostalgia" or "halo affect" from being a team with more history like the O6 teams. A really bad Habs teams team from last year was a bigger draw than a bad Jackets team as an example.

It would be interesting to get a breakdown of teams by conference based on teams "premier" pricing. I believe many teams have "tiered" pricing where the premier teams tickets are more expensive. I'd be interested to see what was the breakdown of those teams by conference.


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02-25-2013, 03:28 PM
  #483
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Ha, why not? Have you got some data to base that on?

These days, because the manufactured parity, a 5pt difference in the Standings is probably equal to about a 15pt difference back then. Still doesn't make the lower team any less Playoff worthy than they used to be, just not as blatantly obvious.
It is simple math. When just under 80% of the league is making the play-offs (from 82-91) it shouldn't take a rocket science to know that teams grossly under .500 will be in the play-offs.

Look at the conference standings since the league went from 21 to 30. How often is there a team from one conference that finishes 9th, but is 10-20 points better than the 8th place team from the other conference? But, going to look at the standings from 82-93 and see what the numbers look like. Give me a few minutes.


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02-25-2013, 03:32 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
In part I do. I sincerely believe that the western teams want more Seasonal interaction with the east. It may not be great for TV ratings, but it isn't bad for them because there is still interest in the West for those eastern teams. And as Beukeboom Fan just pointed out, it's also big at the gate to have those eastern teams to town. However, it seems clearly every day that the east would prefer to have nothing to do with the west. A lot of ETZ teams would be just as happy to never have to play teams out of there Time Zone at all.
I agree with this.. western conference games do nothing for me. As a Bruins STH, I have not been to a western game in years aside from the SCF rematch last year. Just too many snooze fests.

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02-25-2013, 03:34 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
So are you saying then that if more ETZ teams were in the Wilds' Conference that then you'd give them more attention?
That's not what I'm saying at all.

What I'm saying is that I care about the League, in whole. I don't care about a team any more or any less because of what time zone they are in.

I'm also saying that I don't hyperventilate when an ETZ comes to town. Because I'm a fan, I'll watch with just as much interest as any other...except maybe for when a divisional opponent comes in for obvious reasons.

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I agree with this.. western conference games do nothing for me. As a Bruins STH, I have not been to a western game in years aside from the SCF rematch last year. Just too many snooze fests.
Now...is this an indictment on the time zone or just that, at this moment, there are more teams in the West that play a more defensive style of hockey?

If run and gun hockey became more prevelant in the West, would that draw your attention more? Should we ask our blueliners to lay down and sign some sieves to park in the net so we can please you ?

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02-25-2013, 03:40 PM
  #486
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
It is simple math. When just under 80% of the league is making the play-offs (from 82-91) it shouldn't take a rocket science to know that teams grossly under .500 will be in the play-offs.

Look at the conference standings since the league went from 21 to 30. How often is there a team from one conference that finishes 9th, but is 10-20 points better than the 8th place team from the other conference? But, going to look at the standings from 82-98 and see what the numbers look like. Give me a few minutes.
I think this is the key point. There is a MUCH greater variance possible when you've something like this:

Pre-Expansion - 21 teams: 4/6, 4/5, 4/5, 4/5
Now: 30 teams: 4/8, 4/8, 4/7, 4/7

Previously - if a "division" had 3 really good teams, the 4th team that made the P/O's was likely to get beaten up a lot, but still qualify for the P/O's. Compare that to a "division" that had 5 very evenly matched teams, the points of the 4th play-off qualifier would be significantly different just based on strength of schedule. It's my thought that that difference would be signficantly less based on parity and the loser point.

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02-25-2013, 03:41 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by MuckOG View Post


Now...is this an indictment on the time zone or just that, at this moment, there are more teams in the West that play a more defensive style of hockey?

If run and gun hockey became more prevelant in the West, would that draw your attention more? Should we ask our blueliners to lay down and sign some sieves to park in the net so we can please you ?
Its an indictment to the fact that if you are not familiar with the team you are playing there is no hate and hockey without hate is boring. Divisional games as a whole are much more entertaining than a Tuesday night Coyotes game.

Nothing to do with styles at all.

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02-25-2013, 03:42 PM
  #488
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To condense what I'm saying, is that I think the League's proposals have a significant potential of increasing the economic divide in the League. You put the great majority of the money-making teams together.

Of the top 15 highest revenue teams last year, other than the Canadian teams only 2 were outside of the ETZ. And Los Angeles had just had a Cup run, Chicago was the other.

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02-25-2013, 03:43 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I'm fairly sure that Rangers and Flyers fans really aren't that interested in western games and their teams; if that answers your question.

My favorite teams are Boston, Carolina, Vancouver, St Louis, San Jose.
My most hated teams are Montreal, Edmonton, the Rangers, and Anaheim.

So my interest, like and dislike, isn't Time Zone related.
I am very interested in watching the western teams play.

Admittedly I am not the norm, but I love watching western conference hockey and do so as often as possible.

Not a big fan of the Nucks announce team, but watching them play is very enjoyable for me.

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02-25-2013, 03:44 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Its an indictment to the fact that if you are not familiar with the team you are playing there is no hate and hockey without hate is boring. Divisional games as a whole are much more entertaining than a Tuesday night Coyotes game.

Nothing to do with styles at all.
Then, that's an indictment on hockey fans in the East (or anywhere) who don't bother looking further then the end of their nose when it comes to the NHL.

Don't you have Centre Ice? Don't you have the urge to watch a game that doesn't include your team or some team from your division?

Personally, I don't find any hockey boring...youth, high school, college or the Pros...

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02-25-2013, 03:45 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
To condense what I'm saying, is that I think the League's proposals have a significant potential of increasing the economic divide in the League. You put the great majority of the money-making teams together.

Of the top 15 highest revenue teams last year, other than the Canadian teams only 2 were outside of the ETZ. And Los Angeles had just had a Cup run, Chicago was the other.
Just as a counter-point though - the only team that is moving is DET, so it's not like that divide doesn't already exist (unless you consider DET on their own to be significant - which seems odd). And I would think that the western Canadien trio are all top 10 in league revenues - correct?

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02-25-2013, 03:49 PM
  #492
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Just as a counter-point though - the only team that is moving is DET, so it's not like that divide doesn't already exist (unless you consider DET on their own to be significant - which seems odd). And I would think that the western Canadien trio are all top 10 in league revenues - correct?
Calgary 12
Edmonton 14
Winnipeg 16

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02-25-2013, 03:50 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by MuckOG View Post
Then, that's an indictment on hockey fans in the East (or anywhere) who don't bother looking further then the end of their nose when it comes to the NHL.

Don't you have Centre Ice? Don't you have the urge to watch a game that doesn't include your team or some team from your division?

Personally, I don't find any hockey boring...youth, high school, college or the Pros...
I have gone a few years without missing more than 3 home games and on average, the western games were much, much more boring. Now that I live further away, I don't really miss paying $75 to see 2 teams go through the motions for 60 mins with very few hits or fights.

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02-25-2013, 03:51 PM
  #494
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I think that we also need to differentiate ETZ to those specific teams that the WTZ teams want coming to their building.

Specifically Pitt, Washington and Tampa.

Fans want to see the Sid's, AO's, Malkins and Stamkos's of the world in their building. These guys are the household names that the league pimps. They are the name the casual fans know so when they are coming into town, they get the casual fan in the seat.

Giroux is getting there and if the Islanders weren't so bad, they would be on that list as well. Tavares is an amazing talent. Kovalchuk is on that list as well. Don't want to shortchange him.

The Rangers being an O6 team will always draw well on the road. Always have, always will. Like the Yankees, people want to go to watch the Rangers lose. The "big city team" draws on a lot of haters throughout the US and Canada.

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02-25-2013, 03:52 PM
  #495
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Assuming this PA proposed alignment gets the Board of Governors nod, what should Bettman do to address the concerns over the break up of the Blackhawks / Red Wings rivalry? Two games a year isn't gonna cut it

I can't imagine the league leaving Chicago as the only O6 out in the West without giving them some solid concessions in return.

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02-25-2013, 03:55 PM
  #496
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I think that we also need to differentiate ETZ to those specific teams that the WTZ teams want coming to their building.

Specifically Pitt, Washington and Tampa.

Fans want to see the Sid's, AO's, Malkins and Stamkos's of the world in their building. These guys are the household names that the league pimps. They are the name the casual fans know so when they are coming into town, they get the casual fan in the seat.

Giroux is getting there and if the Islanders weren't so bad, they would be on that list as well. Tavares is an amazing talent. Kovalchuk is on that list as well. Don't want to shortchange him.

The Rangers being an O6 team will always draw well on the road. Always have, always will. Like the Yankees, people want to go to watch the Rangers lose. The "big city team" draws on a lot of haters throughout the US and Canada.
Maybe I am wired weird, but seeing a "star player" never did anything for me. Do people who go to games to see star players on other teams want them to play well? Score a few goals on their favorite team?

To me its the hate that makes hockey entertaining. 6 games vs the Canadiens that are like wars. Players who are familiar with each other and really do hate the other team. The Lucic vs. Komisarek battles. Thats hockey, not seeing a star player from another team. This isnt Basketball.

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02-25-2013, 03:55 PM
  #497
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Assuming this PA proposed alignment gets the Board of Governors nod, what should Bettman do to address the concerns over the break up of the Blackhawks / Red Wings rivalry? Two games a year isn't gonna cut it

I can't imagine the league leaving Chicago as the only O6 out in the West without giving them some solid concessions in return.
I disagree...twice a year is fine.

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02-25-2013, 03:56 PM
  #498
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To condense what I'm saying, is that I think the League's proposals have a significant potential of increasing the economic divide in the League. You put the great majority of the money-making teams together.

Of the top 15 highest revenue teams last year, other than the Canadian teams only 2 were outside of the ETZ. And Los Angeles had just had a Cup run, Chicago was the other.
More,

Your comment here says more about the respective fan bases and the history of the clubs than it says about anything else. What you are saying is that fans in
San Jose
Anaheim
Phoenix
Denver
Minn/St Paul
St Louis
Dallas
Nashville
Winnipeg??

Don't produce lots of revenue. To which I say, "Of course not. These are decent hockey markets, not rabid ones. They will never be rabid ones. There is too much else going on there for NHL hockey to take a big piece of the entertainment pie. And, no matter what you do with scheduling and realignment, that won't change."

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02-25-2013, 03:59 PM
  #499
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
I have gone a few years without missing more than 3 home games and on average, the western games were much, much more boring. Now that I live further away, I don't really miss paying $75 to see 2 teams go through the motions for 60 mins with very few hits or fights.
This is a very revealing post. What you are saying is that the part of the game that interests you is the physical part, right? Not the skills to skate, pass, shoot, save? Fight for the puck, muck it up in front of the net, check hard to make the other guy lose his heart..... This is what you like about the game?

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02-25-2013, 04:01 PM
  #500
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More,

Your comment here says more about the respective fan bases and the history of the clubs than it says about anything else. What you are saying is that fans in
San Jose
Anaheim
Phoenix
Denver
Minn/St Paul
St Louis
Dallas
Nashville
Winnipeg??

Don't produce lots of revenue. To which I say, "Of course not. These are decent hockey markets, not rabid ones. They will never be rabid ones. There is too much else going on there for NHL hockey to take a big piece of the entertainment pie. And, no matter what you do with scheduling and realignment, that won't change."
I disagree with that statement. I would say that Mpls/St Paul and Winnipeg are just as "rabid" (as a percentage of the whole) as any other top hockey market...but just don't have the same population base to draw from.

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