I'm with you on the rebuild. In hindsight it is easy to find where Sherman went wrong but a rebuild never, and I mean never, go in a straight upward line. There are always some bumps along the way. Mueller's and Fleisch's health were 2 of those bumps. Really nothing he could have done about those. He had to cut his losses and move on.
He also overrated Barrie and Elliott by about one year like you said. Looks like Barrie is finally making that much needed step.
It is unfortunate but RoR's trade might help a long way in moving this team along.
The way I see it we are one top-pairing dman, one top-9 forward and a very good coach away from having a pretty good team. The coach alone could probably move us into the playoffs.
The one positive is it could bring in a much needed offensive D, that we would have been very hard pressed to find without moving a guy like O'Reilly.
Then again, we haven't seen what he decides to bring in yet, and we don't know how he plans to deal with the loss of O'Reilly and potentially Staz as a compounded problem.
This will be his defining move no doubt in my mind, and how he addresses those things will either make or completely derail this rebuild.
The one positive is it could bring in a much needed offensive D, that we would have been very hard pressed to find without moving a guy like O'Reilly.
Then again, we haven't seen what he decides to bring in yet, and we don't know how he plans to deal with the loss of O'Reilly and potentially Staz as a compounded problem.
This will be his defining move no doubt in my mind, and how he addresses those things will either make or completely derail this rebuild.
Unfortunately I agree with you on that but I am confident we'll get a very good return. It might not be a home run but I'm hoping for at least a triple.
No, he's already made a defining move, and it did derail the rebuild.
Well...there's an instance where I don't necessarily blame Sherman directly, but rather his boss. I agree with Dater when he says this situation has the stink of Lacroix all over it.
Dammit why didn't he trade Silent Bob at the deadline last year? Paul Gaustad got a friggin 1st rounder in return, Bob would've gotten at least a 2nd. Now I have to watch him play even better than he was before here in Toronto.
Dammit why didn't he trade Silent Bob at the deadline last year? Paul Gaustad got a friggin 1st rounder in return, Bob would've gotten at least a 2nd. Now I have to watch him play even better than he was before here in Toronto.
I suppose they thought they had a legit shot at re-signing him going into the offseason. In any event, his loss isn't huge, but it's compounded a bit since him and O'Reilly were our top PK forwards last season.
Do the Avs still have the policy of not negotiating contracts until after the season? I seem to remember them breaking this rule in recent years.
The one positive is it could bring in a much needed offensive D, that we would have been very hard pressed to find without moving a guy like O'Reilly.
Then again, we haven't seen what he decides to bring in yet, and we don't know how he plans to deal with the loss of O'Reilly and potentially Staz as a compounded problem.
This will be his defining move no doubt in my mind, and how he addresses those things will either make or completely derail this rebuild.
I agree that this, along with the EJ trade, will define the rebuild.
I'm concerned though that even if we don't lose Stastny and get a good piece back for O'reilly that we might not be going anywhere if we need to continue to rely on Staz as a core player. I try to stay as objective as possible about his play but I feel like we're running out of reasons for his constant underperformance. I just hope finally changing coaches and getting our transition game going again will help him out.
I thought the O'Byrne trade was a great one and have defended it every time, even though it was a costly one. It's fine to add one big, slow, physical defenseman when you have a fast, mobile blueline. But then to add more slow, physical defenders with limited or no puck skill (Hejda, O'Brien, Zanon) not only made O'Byrne redundant, it exposed the fact that he has NO puck skill whatsoever.
O'Brien, Hunwick, and Zanon all really stink. O'Byrne does also, but at least he played decent position for a season or so. They're all fringe NHL players. Kevin Porters, but on defense. O'Brien and Hunwick have very little hockey sense. Zanon is mediocre at literally every facet of the game, IMO. And O'Byrne's inability to move either the puck or himself has finally caught up with him. Ugliness.
I don't think Hejda's playing that badly though. He's pretty mobile for a big guy, and moves the puck well also.
Do the Avs still have the policy of not negotiating contracts until after the season? I seem to remember them breaking this rule in recent years.
If this was a policy, it has broken in the last two seasons. For example, just last season, I know for sure that all of Winnik/Jones/SOB held negotiations before the season was over, and McClement was underway just before the season ended as well.
__________________ Kyle Keefe: "Alright, well they love you here in Denver..."
I agree that this, along with the EJ trade, will define the rebuild.
I'm concerned though that even if we don't lose Stastny and get a good piece back for O'reilly that we might not be going anywhere if we need to continue to rely on Staz as a core player. I try to stay as objective as possible about his play but I feel like we're running out of reasons for his constant underperformance. I just hope finally changing coaches and getting our transition game going again will help him out.
My theory on Staz is that he is bored playing on this team. Staz is a playmaker. It is very difficult to make plays when you are constantly dumping the puck. We need a coach that will let him use his creativity entering the offensive zone. Only then I think he will start having fun again and put consistent effort. It is a lot easier to put consistent effort when you are having fun.
However we must always remember that Staz will always go about his business quietly.
My theory on Staz is that he is bored playing on this team. Staz is a playmaker. It is very difficult to make plays when you are constantly dumping the puck. We need a coach that will let him use his creativity entering the offensive zone. Only then I think he will start having fun again and put consistent effort. It is a lot easier to put consistent effort when you are having fun.
However we must always remember that Staz will always go about his business quietly.
I don't know if he's "bored" so much as reaching that point that all NHL players eventually reach when they begin to "tune out" the coach.
I still think dump-and-chase is a necessity of the personnel. And that's on management as much as the coach, though the coach in Colorado always has a say as to the shape of his roster. In the past, Sacco did employ a very effective neutral zone transition game. I can at least give him credit for that.
I don't know if he's "bored" so much as reaching that point that all NHL players eventually reach when they begin to "tune out" the coach.
I think I mentioned this in the game day thread last night. He has the look and feel of a player that simply doesn't want to play for this coach anymore. He looks tired of doing the same repetitive thing over and over even though it's not working. This is why I think a new coach is a necessity this summer. Guys like Stastny and even Hejduk imo could come to life again(at least somewhat).
Sherman is okay. He made some great deals last year, but I can't really fault him for how O'Reilly and his agent acted. They gave O'Reilly 2 great offers and he refused. I wish we made a deal earlier on O'Reilly now, but 20/20 heinsight. Don't hate Calgary as much as I hate O'Reilly. Sherman is building a team on character players and now we know O'Reilly doesn't fit that. We're basically screwed. Wouldn't mind seeing the Avs trade Stastny for a top 4 D or high draft picks.
I dont have any problems with Greg Sherman. In fact. I really like him. O'Reilly is a ****** though.
Sherman failed, plain and simple. This was avoidable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughdreamz
Sherman is okay. He made some great deals last year, but I can't really fault him for how O'Reilly and his agent acted. They gave O'Reilly 2 great offers and he refused. I wish we made a deal earlier on O'Reilly now, but 20/20 heinsight. Don't hate Calgary as much as I hate O'Reilly. Sherman is building a team on character players and now we know O'Reilly doesn't fit that. We're basically screwed. Wouldn't mind seeing the Avs trade Stastny for a top 4 D or high draft picks.
I wouldn't call those offers "great." Fair? Sure, whatever. But great? No. If they were "great," we wouldn't be in this situation.
Colorado needs to make up its mind regarding 'character.' They intentionally draft guys whose stock has fallen due to work ethic or character issues and then get all upset if said guys display those flaws. If you don't want these guys, don't draft them in the first place.
And as for O'Reilly's character, he's just one of many, many professional athletes who wanted big $$$. Big deal. No, I don't like the way he went about it, but the Avs can't let a player of his caliber walk simply on principle. The compensation is simply not enough, certainly not when you factor in the possibility that the Flames might still be division rivals next year and the year after.
And if you think you can build a championship caliber team on nothing but "character guys," you're fooling yourself.
Any way you cut it, Sherman has failed. The Avs are now in a lose-lose situation no matter what. And he played a big part in it (as has Lacroix). A lot of people reserved judgment (rightfully so) on how Sherman handled this situation. Well, now that this has happened, I'm not in any way, shape, or form giving this guy and his boss a "pass" any longer. He needs to go, and Lacroix needs to follow him out the door. Make Rick Pracey the new GM, Sakic the new President, and be done with it.
I stand by him and some of the deals he's made....but this situation has blown up in his face. He let the organization down with it. Bad asset management. Dreger has said other GMs have told him there were better offers out there than two draft picks. The alternative now is overpaying a player and a sour relationship.
I can't fault Sherman for not signing O'Reilly after giving him 2 better than he deserved offers, but I will blame him for waiting too long to not make a deal. We could've got much more in return than a 1st and 3rd.
Well folks, if the Avs don't match, here's how the EJ/Varlamov/Liles/O'R "transactions" look:
Avs gave up:
Shattenkirk
Stewart
O'Reilly
Liles
1st round pick (11th)
2nd round pick (32nd)
Avs got:
Erik Johnson
Varlamov
1st round pick (11th)
1st round pick (TBD)
3rd round pick (TBD)
Pretty ugly.
You hated it when I did this before, but here I go again:
11th->11th
Shattenkirk+Liles ->1st round pick+3rd round pick
Stewart->Johnson
O'Reilly->Varly
2nd round pick->1,5 years of McClement
Does it look as bad now?
In this scenario we lost the Shatty+Liles for 1st+3rd¨
We won Stewart->EJ
You hated it when I did this before, but here I go again:
11th->11th
Shattenkirk+Liles ->1st round pick+3rd round pick
Stewart->Johnson
O'Reilly->Varly
2nd round pick->1,5 years of McClement
Does it look as bad now?
In this scenario we lost the Shatty+Liles for 1st+3rd¨
We won Stewart->EJ
Everything else pretty equal to me.
I really appreciate you engaging in this discussion. But I honestly - and respectfully - can't fathom how you can rationalize this.
I stand by him and some of the deals he's made....but this situation has blown up in his face. He let the organization down with it. Bad asset management. Dreger has said other GMs have told him there were better offers out there than two draft picks. The alternative now is overpaying a player and a sour relationship.
Fail.
Yet again Sherman fails this team. We are on the road to being the next Columbus Blue Jackets. Nice work Sherm.
Yet what I find more astonishing is that there are people in here who defend the clown.
