So last season was your first watching the Habs I take it.
Actually the past 9(10-1 lockout) years.(Since I lost my nords ) I know Ryder was maybe "better" in his first year playing without an injury, but maybe thats just old NHL hockey perception. Heres my 2 cents, I dont think Ryder got the 3 steps speed to be physical without the puck like he was in his first year in the old NHL. Heck Dagenias was capable of playing in the NHL back then.
With the puck, I agree he can be more dominant next year, 40 goals? heck maybe. But last year 2nd half of the season, Higgins was our best scorer thats why my hunch is on higgins side. Fair enough?
Actually the past 9(10-1 lockout) years.(Since I lost my nords ) I know Ryder was maybe "better" in his first year playing without an injury, but maybe thats just old NHL hockey perception. Heres my 2 cents, I dont think Ryder got the 3 steps speed to be physical without the puck like he was in his first year in the old NHL. Heck Dagenias was capable of playing in the NHL back then.
With the puck, I agree he can be more dominant next year, 40 goals? heck maybe. But last year 2nd half of the season, Higgins was our best scorer thats why my hunch is on higgins side. Fair enough?
I think this whole "new NHL" thing is vastly overrated. It seems to be the biggest excuse for every player that had a bad year (funny because Ryder hardly had a bad year).
I would say if anything affected his game, it was the sophomore slump which is something that has plagued rookies coming off great seasons for a long time.
I will take the kid who has proven he's a consistent scorer over 2 years, over the kid who had a good half season, scoring wise. Not to say I don't think Higgins can do it again, but I think it's a bit premature to say Higgins will be a better scorer, especially when you look at their projections.
I think this whole "new NHL" thing is vastly overrated. It seems to be the biggest excuse for every player that had a bad year (funny because Ryder hardly had a bad year).
I would say if anything affected his game, it was the sophomore slump which is something that has plagued rookies coming off great seasons for a long time.
I will take the kid who has proven he's a consistent scorer over 2 years, over the kid who had a good half season, scoring wise. Not to say I don't think Higgins can do it again, but I think it's a bit premature to say Higgins will be a better scorer, especially when you look at their projections.
Projection? Ryder was a 8th rounder. He was projected a ECHL player. Needless to say hes way over his projection already. This guy got a ceiling and hes very close to it at his age. Hes not so young anymore. Entering his prime. While Higgins on the other end was drafted as a center, in the first round, played center for a long time and then bang! LW with a good center=lots of goals. Hes still young too.
Ryder could loose his job even while scoring goals because a same scoring attributes but faster/better 2-way player could supplant him on the other aspects of the game.
Truth is, I would rate Ryder in the top 3 more likely habs forward to be injured for a long time. Seems like his hernia is better, but will it last? If he get reinjured they will probably go to surgery since I dont think he will play with that another year. Its also a syndromatic injury that can come back at any time. If you ask me, im more worried about Ryder Hernia than Koivu's eye.
Projection? Ryder was a 8th rounder. He was projected a ECHL player. Needless to say hes way over his projection already. This guy got a ceiling and hes very close to it at his age. Hes not so young anymore. Entering his prime. While Higgins on the other end was drafted as a center, in the first round, played center for a long time and then bang! LW with a good center=lots of goals. Hes still young too.
Ryder could loose his job even while scoring goals because a same scoring attributes but faster/better 2-way player could supplant him on the other aspects of the game.
Truth is, I would rate Ryder in the top 3 more likely habs forward to be injured for a long time. Seems like his hernia is better, but will it last? If he get reinjured they will probably go to surgery since I dont think he will play with that another year. Its also a syndromatic injury that can come back at any time. If you ask me, im more worried about Ryder Hernia than Koivu's eye.
You can't look at when he was drafted, you have to look at when he started to develop under the farm system. He's improved at a faster rate than any of our prospects. Every year his projections would get better and better.
Higgins was projected as a defensive forward and his offensive upside was always thought to be lower. Maybe he can overcome that, but I'm not 100% convinced after he had a good half season. I wasn't 100% convinced of Ryder either but he proved he was a consistent goal scorer by beating his totals from the year before.
You're still basing Ryder's play on a season where he played injured the entire time. The season before that he was faster and better defensively. He was also gritty, even last year. I went to most of the home games and I saw him behind the play. His grittiness is underrated. I find it funny that you can write off Ryder after one season of play yet you have Higgins in as his replacement after 40 games.
I'm not sure where you went to medical school but a herniated disk doesn't require surgery. It's not a hernia, it's a herniated disk, which is different. All it requires is rest, and regular people (read: not professional atheletes) recover in 4-6 weeks. At worst, some physio and massage is needed. The chance of it happening again is very low, especially for someone in good physical condition.
You can't look at when he was drafted, you have to look at when he started to develop under the farm system. He's improved at a faster rate than any of our prospects. Every year his projections would get better and better.
Higgins was projected as a defensive forward and his offensive upside was always thought to be lower. Maybe he can overcome that, but I'm not 100% convinced after he had a good half season. I wasn't 100% convinced of Ryder either but he proved he was a consistent goal scorer by beating his totals from the year before.
You're still basing Ryder's play on a season where he played injured the entire time. The season before that he was faster and better defensively. He was also gritty, even last year. I went to most of the home games and I saw him behind the play. His grittiness is underrated. I find it funny that you can write off Ryder after one season of play yet you have Higgins in as his replacement after 40 games.
I'm not sure where you went to medical school but a herniated disk doesn't require surgery. It's not a hernia, it's a herniated disk, which is different. All it requires is rest, and regular people (read: not professional atheletes) recover in 4-6 weeks. At worst, some physio and massage is needed. The chance of it happening again is very low, especially for someone in good physical condition.
@Herniated disk: I was saying Hernia as a general term actually. Im rather well placed to talk about this since Ive suffered from one personnaly, no surgery was required, like you said, but the medical crew did told me if it comes back its an automatic surgery. (Im 10 years after now)Syndromatic is the word here. You can be asymptomatic for years and the injury strikes back. Im no athlete of course.
@I wasnt saying Higgins was going to replace Ryder. I was talking about Kost actually. And even on his first season Ryder was never a 2 way player and will never be imo. Grittier yes, faster maybe, but defensively aware I doubt it, on the 3rd line thats another thing completely since he will play differently on those lines. He can be good defensively if you give him the mission, not naturally.
And no, ur speculating, my evaluation is based on everything ive seen of him, hes not too me, the kind of player that will make us much better if he improves on what he got since he dont really have the ingredients to score in 5 v 5 in the new(overated but still relevant)NHL. He will never be as fast as Kost for example (or have his bullet shot, even if he got a good one)
Ur projection argument is also good for Higgins.(Very nice progression) I agree Ryder was a surprise every year, but at some point this will stop drastically and he will stabilize. Personnaly based on everything, I dont see him doing so much more. He could score 50 with a dominating center like Thornthon or Richards, but we dont have that. What could he do with us? Who knows, if Koivu can play a full year healthy maybe 40, I'm in no way denying the possibility. All im saying is that at this point in both player career, If I had to choose between the 2, Higgins would be my choice.
Interestingly enough, while i agree with a couple of you who say Higgins doesn't have the typical skill set of an NHL centerman in terms of controlling the play, wiith Kovy and Samsonov he wouldn't really need it. Those guys control the puck more than most wingers, they carry it sometimes too much and I think that Higgins will be a perfect compliment to that. Plus he goes to the net hard and gets the garbage goals which would be lacking with Ribs onthat line.
You are so right. I never even thought of it. I don't think Ribs and Samsonov on the same line would work very good at all. Both try to keep possession of puck for long periods of time (ribs just isn't as good as doing that). Higgens is a good match.
@Herniated disk: I was saying Hernia as a general term actually. Im rather well placed to talk about this since Ive suffered from one personnaly, no surgery was required, like you said, but the medical crew did told me if it comes back its an automatic surgery. (Im 10 years after now)Syndromatic is the word here. You can be asymptomatic for years and the injury strikes back. Im no athlete of course.
My uncle is a physiotherapist and treats this kind of stuff all the time. My dad had a slipped disk and he had a couple of massages and a few days in bed, and he was good as new. My uncle also told him that normally there is a less than 5% chance of it coming back again, and even less than that for my dad because he's in very good shape and athletic (he runs marathons). I highly doubt his injury is a concern to him, his doctors or the team. He managed to play an entire season with it and I'm sure if there was a risk of it getting worse or any type of long term effect, he would have taken time off.
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@I wasnt saying Higgins was going to replace Ryder. I was talking about Kost actually. And even on his first season Ryder was never a 2 way player and will never be imo. Grittier yes, faster maybe, but defensively aware I doubt it, on the 3rd line thats another thing completely since he will play differently on those lines. He can be good defensively if you give him the mission, not naturally.
So a guy he has 2 years of experience playing in NA, who hasn't produced much in the AHL in those 2 years and who is seen as a project and a huge boom or bust type player is expected to replace someone who has been playing NA hockey his entire life and who scored 55 goals in his first 2 NHL seasons?
I hate to tell you but if you think Kost is going to be gritter or a better defensive kid than Ryder, then you need to take a look at how he plays without the puck. Not impressive.
And Kost's injury/health concerns are MUCH riskier than Ryder's.
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And no, ur speculating, my evaluation is based on everything ive seen of him, hes not too me, the kind of player that will make us much better if he improves on what he got since he dont really have the ingredients to score in 5 v 5 in the new(overated but still relevant)NHL. He will never be as fast as Kost for example (or have his bullet shot, even if he got a good one)
That remains to be seen. As of now, Ryder is a proven NHL scorer and Kost is not.
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Ur projection argument is also good for Higgins.(Very nice progression) I agree Ryder was a surprise every year, but at some point this will stop drastically and he will stabilize. Personnaly based on everything, I dont see him doing so much more. He could score 50 with a dominating center like Thornthon or Richards, but we dont have that. What could he do with us? Who knows, if Koivu can play a full year healthy maybe 40, I'm in no way denying the possibility. All im saying is that at this point in both player career, If I had to choose between the 2, Higgins would be my choice.
If Ryder remains a 30 goal scorer, he's still better than anything we currently have on the team.
I personally wouldn't like Kovalev playing center as it puts a lot of responsibility on him defensively. The reason I sort of like the idea of Higgins, is the fact that it can give samsonov and kovalev more of an opportunity to sort of take chances. With Ribs at center...can't afford that as he needs all the help he can get in the defensive zone.
My uncle is a physiotherapist and treats this kind of stuff all the time. My dad had a slipped disk and he had a couple of massages and a few days in bed, and he was good as new. My uncle also told him that normally there is a less than 5% chance of it coming back again, and even less than that for my dad because he's in very good shape and athletic (he runs marathons). I highly doubt his injury is a concern to him, his doctors or the team. He managed to play an entire season with it and I'm sure if there was a risk of it getting worse or any type of long term effect, he would have taken time off.
Bah lets not fall into the my corvette is bigger than your chevette discussion. Ryder and the habs doctors talked about a possible surgery in his case for at least a week and it was even an annuncement from the habs 1 month after the season. Something like: "We are really relieved Ryder's injury wont require a surgery."
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Originally Posted by waffledave
So a guy he has 2 years of experience playing in NA, who hasn't produced much in the AHL in those 2 years and who is seen as a project and a huge boom or bust type player is expected to replace someone who has been playing NA hockey his entire life and who scored 55 goals in his first 2 NHL seasons?
I hate to tell you but if you think Kost is going to be gritter or a better defensive kid than Ryder, then you need to take a look at how he plays without the puck. Not impressive.
Im not talking about this year either really, Im thinking about over time, it might happen this year or not, a lot of other factors in that mix too. $$$ might talk as well(cap space, long term management). Kost play without the puck is vastly underated. And the World Championship performances proves it. (Go read Hockey futures report if you dont believe me...)
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Originally Posted by waffledave
And Kost's injury/health concerns are MUCH riskier than Ryder's.
Epilepsia? Really dont go there, your just wrong, theres more than 10 NHL players playing with it and you dont even hear about it. Worst case scenario, hell miss a couple of games here and there to relax.
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Originally Posted by waffledave
That remains to be seen. As of now, Ryder is a proven NHL scorer and Kost is not.
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As of now, Ryder is a proven NHL power play scorer and Kost is not.
Corrected
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Originally Posted by waffledave
If Ryder remains a 30 goal scorer, he's still better than anything we currently have on the team.
I cant say how much I disagree with this statement. Goals scoring isnt everything. If you meant for the forwards, I'll take Kovalev, Koivu, Higgins before I take Ryder any day.
Bah lets not fall into the my corvette is bigger than your chevette discussion. Ryder and the habs doctors talked about a possible surgery in his case for at least a week and it was even an annuncement from the habs 1 month after the season. Something like: "We are really relieved Ryder's injury wont require a surgery."
As I remember it, there was never a concern that it would require surgery. A statement like that doesn't mean they were scared that surgery might be needed, it means they're happy it's not an injury that requires surgery.
Look up herniated disks. Surgery is only needed in very extreme cases, and if Ryder was able to play with the injury, we can safely deduct that this is not one of those cases.
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Im not talking about this year either really, Im thinking about over time, it might happen this year or not, a lot of other factors in that mix too. $$$ might talk as well(cap space, long term management). Kost play without the puck is vastly underated. And the World Championship performances proves it. (Go read Hockey futures report if you dont believe me...)
I'll take his AHL play over his world championship play. One is playing with men and one is playing with boys.
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Epilepsia? Really dont go there, your just wrong, theres more than 10 NHL players playing with it and you dont even hear about it. Worst case scenario, hell miss a couple of games here and there to relax.
Not just his epilepsy, but his back injuries too. There's a reason he slipped into mid-first round in the draft. Otherwise he's a concensus top 5 pick.
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Corrected
I never quite understood why a power play goal counts for less than a ES goal. As far as I know, they both count for the same number of points on the scoreboard. I've played hockey for about 14 years so I'm pretty sure the rules are the same everywhere.
You make it sound like Ryder only go easy goals. If that's the case, why was nobody else able to score as many as him? Icetime? There were 4 other guys on the ice at the same time for his PP goals. If scoring a PP goal is so easy, I don't see why they don't have as many.
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I cant say how much I disagree with this statement. Goals scoring isnt everything. If you meant for the forwards, I'll take Kovalev, Koivu, Higgins before I take Ryder any day.
Goal scoring is the #1 weakness on this team. It's not even debatable.
As I remember it, there was never a concern that it would require surgery. A statement like that doesn't mean they were scared that surgery might be needed, it means they're happy it's not an injury that requires surgery.
Look up herniated disks. Surgery is only needed in very extreme cases, and if Ryder was able to play with the injury, we can safely deduct that this is not one of those cases.
Very extreme case? No just when it becomes syndromatic(always come back) Ryder had this injury since xmas, a 4-5 months hernia disk might be considered by some a long time. No?
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Originally Posted by waffledave
I'll take his AHL play over his world championship play. One is playing with men and one is playing with boys.
I guess I dont know what Shanahan was doing there then. World Championship is a much higher caliber than the AHL, its not debatable. Look at the scoring leaders list, S.Crosby leads it over Bergeron, Ovechkin and others established NHL Stars. One again Kost is much better with better players. Not with the mediocre bulldogs.
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Originally Posted by waffledave
Not just his epilepsy, but his back injuries too. There's a reason he slipped into mid-first round in the draft. Otherwise he's a concensus top 5 pick.
Ok fair enough.
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Originally Posted by waffledave
I never quite understood why a power play goal counts for less than a ES goal. As far as I know, they both count for the same number of points on the scoreboard. I've played hockey for about 14 years so I'm pretty sure the rules are the same everywhere.
You make it sound like Ryder only go easy goals. If that's the case, why was nobody else able to score as many as him? Icetime? There were 4 other guys on the ice at the same time for his PP goals. If scoring a PP goal is so easy, I don't see why they don't have as many.
A 5 v 5 goal cost more to buy than a pp goal, its just pure logic. Both are goals, but a 30 5 v 5 goal scorer will probably score 50+ total. Ryder not being a speed demon will logically be better on the pp than in 5 v 5. Hes a very good sniper, never said otherwise, thats why he scores so many on the PP, but he doesnt create the same ammount in 5 v 5 by a large margin since he cant beat the D with speed.(Like Kost could in the future with all the "ifs") Another way for him to score is to jump in the slot and take a shot, I expect that to be stronger when hell be free of his injury, but still he doesnt have much space.
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Originally Posted by waffledave
Goal scoring is the #1 weakness on this team. It's not even debatable.
I didnt challenge that. But saying Ryder is your most valuable player because he scores 30 is just not right imo. Btw. hes part of the problem, since he cant pass, cant lead an offence, will turn the puck every single time. He can be part of the solution if used wisely imo, like on the 3rd line with a defensive mission and on the powerplay, scoring his 25 PP goals every year.(+10 5 v 5)
Bah lets not fall into the my corvette is bigger than your chevette discussion. Ryder and the habs doctors talked about a possible surgery in his case for at least a week and it was even an annuncement from the habs 1 month after the season. Something like: "We are really relieved Ryder's injury wont require a surgery."
Im not talking about this year either really, Im thinking about over time, it might happen this year or not, a lot of other factors in that mix too. $$$ might talk as well(cap space, long term management). Kost play without the puck is vastly underated. And the World Championship performances proves it. (Go read Hockey futures report if you dont believe me...)
Epilepsia? Really dont go there, your just wrong, theres more than 10 NHL players playing with it and you dont even hear about it. Worst case scenario, hell miss a couple of games here and there to relax.
Corrected
I cant say how much I disagree with this statement. Goals scoring isnt everything. If you meant for the forwards, I'll take Kovalev, Koivu, Higgins before I take Ryder any day.
How much lunch money did Ryder beat out of you in Elementary school? It really can't be all that much, can it? Anyways, I'm sure if you were to send him a nice email asking for your money back that he'd comply and you'd be able to get over your Ryder-complex. It's for your own good... I mean, putting in your faith in a guy who was barely able to score half as many goals in the AHL as Ryder scored in the NHL (with a herniated disc) is a pretty telling sign that you've hit rock bottom. Maybe I'm wrong, though, and you've just got a problem with not knowing what the term "Prospect" means and how to handle them.
I completely agree with SOLR that even if ryder can score a lot of goal, he's not that good but I would keep until we're get a good value for him.
I think that if kost was given the same PP time with koivu, he would score as much goals as ryder. he has always been more talented than people of his age he's the type of player that plays better when he plays at a high level.
kost is more physical and plays better without the puck than what he is given for.
I 've seen about ten games of hamilton and I think he is NHL READY.
Actually I think Kost could help the habs a lot on the PP, playing with Ryder, Koivu, Kovalev and Markov. Thats right Kost on the point. He got a big wrist and slap shot, and hes very good with the puck, he just need the confidence to do it at NHL level.
Kostitsyn Koivu Ryder
Samsanov Higgins Kovalev
Perezhogin Plekanec Johnson
Begin Bonk Murray
It's so true...with Higgins's smart all-round game, he'll let Kovalev & Samsonov do their magic. He's a natural center, and just maybe the #2 center we need.
Ribs, well...I just don't wanna see him anymore shaming the Hab jersey/legacy. I don't know why he's still here? Carbo wants to improve his defensive game?
Kostitsyn Koivu Ryder
Samsanov Higgins Kovalev
Perezhogin Plekanec Johnson
Begin Bonk Murray
It's so true...with Higgins's smart all-round game, he'll let Kovalev & Samsonov do their magic. He's a natural center, and just maybe the #2 center we need.
Ribs, well...I just don't wanna see him anymore shaming the Hab jersey/legacy. I don't know why he's still here? Carbo wants to improve his defensive game?
Good line ... But I expect the habs to change Bonk by Chipchura
Very extreme case? No just when it becomes syndromatic(always come back) Ryder had this injury since xmas, a 4-5 months hernia disk might be considered by some a long time. No?
The only reason he had it so long is because he didn't take any time off. He didn't take any time off because he's a warrior and the team was fighting for a playoff spot. Usually only vets play through injury like that...He's got a ton of character to do that.
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I guess I dont know what Shanahan was doing there then. World Championship is a much higher caliber than the AHL, its not debatable. Look at the scoring leaders list, S.Crosby leads it over Bergeron, Ovechkin and others established NHL Stars. One again Kost is much better with better players. Not with the mediocre bulldogs.
My bad, I thought you were talking about the Jr World Championships. But aren't the WCs played on international rinks? Lots of Europeans thrive on international ice but struggle in the smaller NHL surface. The closest comparasion in NA to NHL play is the AHL, where Kost has struggled.
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A 5 v 5 goal cost more to buy than a pp goal, its just pure logic. Both are goals, but a 30 5 v 5 goal scorer will probably score 50+ total. Ryder not being a speed demon will logically be better on the pp than in 5 v 5. Hes a very good sniper, never said otherwise, thats why he scores so many on the PP, but he doesnt create the same ammount in 5 v 5 by a large margin since he cant beat the D with speed.(Like Kost could in the future with all the "ifs") Another way for him to score is to jump in the slot and take a shot, I expect that to be stronger when hell be free of his injury, but still he doesnt have much space.
Ryder should never be needed to beat anyone with speed because he's not a puck carrier. He's a shooter. He should sit his *** in the slot and score goals. And that's what he does (he does it better than anyone on the team). If you're looking for the flashy, in-between the legs deke type of scorer then I'm not surprised you don't like Ryder. If you're looking for a guy to score clutch goals then Ryder is your man (he led the team in GWG).
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I didnt challenge that. But saying Ryder is your most valuable player because he scores 30 is just not right imo. Btw. hes part of the problem, since he cant pass, cant lead an offence, will turn the puck every single time. He can be part of the solution if used wisely imo, like on the 3rd line with a defensive mission and on the powerplay, scoring his 25 PP goals every year.(+10 5 v 5)
Again, he's not a playmaker. Why would he pass? He's always in a position to shoot, not pass. Besides, Ryder made some sweet cross-crease passes this past year. He's valuable not because he scores 30 goals, but because he also scores more GWGs than anyone.
Good line ... But I expect the habs to change Bonk by Chipchura
to that!
Begin Chipchura Murray
Maybe when/if Bonk gets injured, or Chipchura will somehow get the chance this year. If not this year, I'd say next year for sure (also Bonk might leave...UFA '07).
) I know Ryder was maybe "better" in his first year playing without an injury, but maybe thats just old NHL hockey perception. Heres my 2 cents, I dont think Ryder got the 3 steps speed to be physical without the puck like he was in his first year in the old NHL. Heck Dagenias was capable of playing in the NHL back then.
to that!
