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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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Old
02-25-2013, 04:02 PM
  #501
patnyrnyg
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81-82 5 teams missed the play-offs. None of those 5 had more points than any play-off team

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1982.html

82-83: one team had a better record who missed the play-offs. Kings had 66 points and finished 5th in the smythe, while St. Louis had 65 points for 4th in the Norris. 1 team, 1 point.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1983.html

83-84: none. teams that missed the play-offs didn't have more points than any play-off teams.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1984.html

84-85: Whalers missed with 69 points in the Adams, while Rangers had 62 and finished 4th in the Patrick.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1985.html

85-86: Sabres finished 5th in the Adams with 80. Rangers 4th in the Patrick with 78.

86-87: None. http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1987.html

87-88: Whalers had 77 for 4th in the Adams. Rangers had 82 for 5th in the Patrick. Penguins also had 81 for 6th in the Patrick, but they would have been 9th if you had conference play-offs, so it wouldn't have mattered. Rangers were the only team above .500 to miss the play-offs in this era. Vancouver had 59 for 5th in the Smythe and toronto had 52 for 4th in the Norris.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1988.html

88-89: None. http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1989.html

89-90: None. http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1990.html

90-91: Flyers had 76 points for 5th in the Patrick, while the Whalers had 73 for 4th in the Adams.
http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1991.html

91-92: Isles (79 for 5th in Patrick) and Flyers (75 for 6th in Patrick) were better than Buffalo (74 for 3rd in Adams) and Whalers (65 for 4th in Adams). Calgary with 74 for 5th in the Smythe were better than Minnesota who had 70 for 4th in the Norris.

92-93: None. http://www.hockey-reference.com/leagues/NHL_1993.html

So, in 6 out of 12 seasons during the divisional format era, there was not one team that didn't make the play-offs that would have made it if it was a 1st through 8th in the Conference set-up.

During the 6 season where it did happen:

1) only once was the team over .500 (88 Rangers). However, the Rangers also benefitted from the format, twice. So, even though I am a Rangers fan and was devastated when John MacLean beat Darren Pang in OT on Easter Sunday, can't really complain.
2) only happened 3 times in the western conference
3) 5 times it happened in the East.
4) Only once did two teams from the same conference miss-out where they would have been in it (91-92).
5) Only twice did more than 1 team get screwed when they would have made it with a 1-8 set-up.


Last edited by patnyrnyg: 02-25-2013 at 04:14 PM.
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02-25-2013, 04:07 PM
  #502
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I'm fairly sure that Rangers and Flyers fans really aren't that interested in western games and their teams; if that answers your question.

My favorite teams are Boston, Carolina, Vancouver, St Louis, San Jose.
My most hated teams are Montreal, Edmonton, the Rangers, and Anaheim.

So my interest, like and dislike, isn't Time Zone related.
you have 5 favorite teams?

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02-25-2013, 04:12 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by MuckOG View Post
Then, that's an indictment on hockey fans in the East (or anywhere) who don't bother looking further then the end of their nose when it comes to the NHL.

Don't you have Centre Ice? Don't you have the urge to watch a game that doesn't include your team or some team from your division?

Personally, I don't find any hockey boring...youth, high school, college or the Pros...
How many games can you possibly watch in one night? Me, I wake up at 5:45, 4am am if I go to the gym before work. I am not staying up to watch west teams. Plus, I don't watch game EVERY night. Occasionally, I will watch a west game on a friday or saturday night. However, I am interested if it Cgy-Edm, 2 of LA-Ana-SJ, or if it is 2 top teams who happen to be playing a late game.

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02-25-2013, 04:16 PM
  #504
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
How many games can you possibly watch in one night? Me, I wake up at 5:45, 4am am if I go to the gym before work. I am not staying up to watch west teams. Plus, I don't watch game EVERY night. Occasionally, I will watch a west game on a friday or saturday night. However, I am interested if it Cgy-Edm, 2 of LA-Ana-SJ, or if it is 2 top teams who happen to be playing a late game.
I'll watch what's ever on. Obviously, the Wild take precedence...but if the Wild aren't playing, I'll choose to watch all or part of other games around the League. Watched a little of the Bruins/Panthers yesterday...also caught part of the Coyotes/Oilers. I may not watch the WHOLE game, as I like to jump around from game to game.

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02-25-2013, 04:18 PM
  #505
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yeah I'm the same way. I got GCL this year and will usually watch whatever's on at night when I'm winding down after the Isles most recent frustrating effort or when I'm getting ready for bed. Edmonton's become like my unofficial "after hours" team.

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02-25-2013, 04:22 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Being out west has advantages and disadvantages as a sports fan. Football is over by 8-9 pm PT, so there is no being exhausted for midnight or later games. However, the cities are further apart, so there is more travelling. Eastern teams are at a much bigger disadvantage on a Western road trip trying to play games at 10:30pm-2am their time than when the Western teams come east for a 4:30 western time start.

I don't see why the Eastern teams should give up their travel advantage, unless the Western teams would agree to a standard 7:00-8:00 pm ETZ start time league wide.
How do you figure, just every article you read about jet lag which is what you are talking about it is harder going west to east. And with a gate driven league lets kill the gate by trying to start so early.

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Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Of course it is not reasonable. Nor is it reasonable to ask ETZ teams to play 20+ games in the MTZ and PTZ given the biological clock disadvantage.
Yet it has been perfectly acceptable to have west coast teams do this for years. And see what I wrote above about the affects. It's worse going east than coming west.


http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...time-zones-jet

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02-25-2013, 05:03 PM
  #507
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Again, I think it's important that I say first that I don't want to sound like I'm against Detroit being in an eastern Conference. But now, how does Detroit being in an eastern Conference help TV ratings for all the teams in the West? You're talking about improving Detroit's ratings, while likely hurting the ratings of a whole lot of teams in the West.
The devil is in the details:

There's the US national contract, held by NBC, broadcast on both NBC and NBCSN. Within the national contract, there are exclusive games, and there are non-exclusive games, meaning the local rights holder would then hold exclusivity within the market, and that national game would be blacked out in favor of the local broadcast.

So let's use real-world examples.

In the 2010 playoffs, Detroit opened with Phoenix. The first round of the playoffs is usually exclusive to the teams' regional sports nets. That means Fox Sports Detroit and Fox Sports Arizona were showing the games in Detroit and Arizona.

In the 2011 playoffs, Detroit once again opened with Phoenix.

This comparasion from Puck the Media dated 18 April 2011 should tell it all:
Quote:
The national numbers may not have blown anyone away for the NHL On NBC this weekend, but in local markets, the NHL did pretty well for the most part.

For Saturday’s Coyotes vs. Red Wings, Game 2, NBC scored an 11.9/25 in the Detroit market according to an NBC Sports spokesman. This was up 22% from the 9.4 rating the Red Wings drew against the Coyotes for Game 1, which aired on cable’s FS Detroit. While solid, this was down 15% from the 13.9/27 that Game 3 of Phoenix/Detroit drew on April 19, 2010.

The number in Phoenix, a 2.1/6, was well down from some of the local numbers we were seeing from last year (including a 4.7 for Game 2 in Phoenix on FS Detroit [ I think they mean FS Arizona ]) and down a staggering 45% from the 3.8/9 Game 3 of the Coyotes/Wings series did in the market last year. Please note that the game started in the AM hours in Arizona this year.
The four-conference realignment is specifically designed to stop this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
In fact, how has having all the ETZ teams (other than Detroit and Columbus) separated from the Rest of the League helped those non-ETZ teams with better TV ratings?
I think you can see the answer about how that 2011 game on NBC killed the rating in Phoenix because the start time was around 9A in the morning.

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02-25-2013, 05:13 PM
  #508
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To which I say, "Of course not. These are decent hockey markets, not rabid ones. They will never be rabid ones. There is too much else going on there for NHL hockey to take a big piece of the entertainment pie. And, no matter what you do with scheduling and realignment, that won't change."

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuckOG View Post
I disagree with that statement. I would say that Mpls/St Paul and Winnipeg are just as "rabid" (as a percentage of the whole) as any other top hockey market...but just don't have the same population base to draw from.
I put in red the statement being referenced. I would give on Winnipeg being rabid. But, the Wild's sell out streak is long broken. The problem in Mpls/St Paul is that there is lots and lots of other hockey there. It's hockey rabid, but not necessarily Wild NHL hockey rabid.

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02-25-2013, 05:24 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
To which I say, "Of course not. These are decent hockey markets, not rabid ones. They will never be rabid ones. There is too much else going on there for NHL hockey to take a big piece of the entertainment pie. And, no matter what you do with scheduling and realignment, that won't change."



I put in red the statement being referenced. I would give on Winnipeg being rabid. But, the Wild's sell out streak is long broken. The problem in Mpls/St Paul is that there is lots and lots of other hockey there. It's hockey rabid, but not necessarily Wild NHL hockey rabid.
Exactly. You have a bunch of D1 hockey programs and from what I understand HS hockey in Minnesota is like HS football in Texas and Florida. People aren't going to pay NHL prices when they can get an entertaining hockey game for a lot less $.

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02-25-2013, 05:26 PM
  #510
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So has this ridiculous proposal been voted on yet?

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NHL Standings Under Different Point Systems
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Old
02-25-2013, 05:27 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Exactly. You have a bunch of D1 hockey programs and from what I understand HS hockey in Minnesota is like HS football in Texas and Florida. People aren't going to pay NHL prices when they can get an entertaining hockey game for a lot less $.
I would prefer you to say "they won't pay Toronto prices."

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02-25-2013, 05:46 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Exactly. You have a bunch of D1 hockey programs and from what I understand HS hockey in Minnesota is like HS football in Texas and Florida. People aren't going to pay NHL prices when they can get an entertaining hockey game for a lot less $.
And, you are right about high school. 3200 in attendance at the championship game Saturday night.






And, oh, that was the girls' tournament. They play it at the X.

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02-25-2013, 07:15 PM
  #513
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Tampa and Florida are the only teams that stick out like a sore thumb.
I think that this is really a problem of not wanting to break up the rivalries in the current Atlantic Division that caused this. How would the league sell breaking up the Pennsylvania rivalry or the rivalry in the NYC metro area?

As for playoffs, what I would like to see is: top 3 teams in each division make the playoffs, and then the bottom 4 would be composed of teams with the 4 best records not already in, with potential playoff crossover. As it is, I see one conference as already being top heavy.


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02-25-2013, 07:21 PM
  #514
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Originally Posted by aemoreira1981 View Post
I think that this is really a problem of not wanting to break up the rivalries in the current Atlantic Division that caused this. How would the league sell breaking up the Pennsylvania rivalry or the rivalry in the NYC metro area?

As for playoffs, what I would like to see is: top 3 teams in each division make the playoffs, and then the bottom 4 would be composed of teams with the 4 best records not already in, with potential playoff crossover.
TSN "Insiders" just confirmed that although details are sketchy right now...the top three in each Conference are in...and some kind of wildcard team for each Conference will be the fourth team (no idea how this would work at this time).

Sixteen teams ultimately make the playoffs with NO one game play-in as has been rumored.

First and Second rounds would be "within Conference" (and this seems to be the tricky/unknown part).

Time will tell!

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02-25-2013, 07:34 PM
  #515
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I don't understand how you have that kind of wild card set up when you don't have two conferences. If it was a re-seeded cross over against the other 1 seeds, it would be kind of crappy if Vancouver was the best team in the league and had to play Florida in the 1st round. I realize this is how it was done in the early 80s, but that's why they moved to division and conference playoff format.

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02-25-2013, 07:39 PM
  #516
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Why have a League with half the teams belonging to two Conferences that few people will follow? Why separate the west off from the east so extremely?
As has been pointed out, the new alignment has the east and west playing more than they do now.

Are you just not understanding what is happening? The amount of unfounded complaints you have leads me to wonder if you actually know what is going on.

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02-25-2013, 07:39 PM
  #517
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Agreed. Just don't see how you can have the first 2 rounds 'within the conference'. If the top 3 teams are in and it's a weak conference, they'll be the only 3 to make it in.

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02-25-2013, 07:43 PM
  #518
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Agreed. Just don't see how you can have the first 2 rounds 'within the conference'. If the top 3 teams are in and it's a weak conference, they'll be the only 3 to make it in.
Plus 1 of the 4 "wildcard teams" would get slotted in their Conference too.

How this is going to happen exactly is the question of the moment!?!?

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02-25-2013, 07:46 PM
  #519
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I have gone a few years without missing more than 3 home games and on average, the western games were much, much more boring. Now that I live further away, I don't really miss paying $75 to see 2 teams go through the motions for 60 mins with very few hits or fights.
And why are they boring? Because they're out-of-Conference and the games have less intensity. The League now wants to expand that scenario to a larger scale, and only make these mini-Conferences have the high priority. Oh sure, there are so many games outside the mini-Conference that they will have significance, but with only 2 games in a Season against each of those teams, there's little likelihood that they'll get very intense.

So, Morris, the League is in the process of expanding the number of those "boring" games.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilky01 View Post
As has been pointed out, the new alignment has the east and west playing more than they do now.

Are you just not understanding what is happening? The amount of unfounded complaints you have leads me to wonder if you actually know what is going on.
Pay attention to Morris, he's telling you what I mean by using his explanation of it. Playing every team two times doesn't make those games intense events in which the two teams know that they're fighting each other for positions in the Standings. And even it might series might start to get intense because anger building up between the players; just as that gets started then the 2-game series is over for the Season. It's not the number of games against the whole collective of teams outside the Conference, it's the total number of games against any specific team outside the Conference, and that's not very many, not enough for it to get interesting.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 02-25-2013 at 08:06 PM.
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02-25-2013, 07:47 PM
  #520
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Assuming this PA proposed alignment gets the Board of Governors nod, what should Bettman do to address the concerns over the break up of the Blackhawks / Red Wings rivalry? Two games a year isn't gonna cut it

I can't imagine the league leaving Chicago as the only O6 out in the West without giving them some solid concessions in return.
The PA proposed this? That's the first I've heard that. I don't think that's the case.

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02-25-2013, 07:54 PM
  #521
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More,

Your comment here says more about the respective fan bases and the history of the clubs than it says about anything else. What you are saying is that fans in
San Jose
Anaheim
Phoenix
Denver
Minn/St Paul
St Louis
Dallas
Nashville
Winnipeg??

Don't produce lots of revenue. To which I say, "Of course not. These are decent hockey markets, not rabid ones. They will never be rabid ones. There is too much else going on there for NHL hockey to take a big piece of the entertainment pie. And, no matter what you do with scheduling and realignment, that won't change."
I wasn't criticizing those hockey markets. I'm criticizing the plan to further increase the wealth of the eastern block of teams and create a further dependence of the western block on eastern revenues. Not only should there be a mix of east and west spread around, but there should also be a mix of the higher money-making teams spread around. Yet, now again the League is thinking to take another money-making team and putting it in an Eastern Conference. The only real money-making teams left in the west will be Vancouver and Chicago. Calgary and Edmonton can make money, but they're still limited by being small markets and thus small money-makers.

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02-25-2013, 07:57 PM
  #522
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you have 5 favorite teams?
well, 5 teams that I like. Of course my favorite favorite, by far should be obvious. But yes, if I'm not watching or following the Bruins (either because they're not playing on that particular day or they're simply out of the picture, I follow and root for those other teams).

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02-25-2013, 08:00 PM
  #523
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Hi CyNick, are we to have some more disagreements today?

So, you're saying it's the first step to an eventual 20-team Playoff. I mean, this would be a step making it kind of an 18-team Playoff.


The League should just cut the Regular Season in half and then have 8 Rounds of Playoffs.
Its all about revenue generation.

They have been looking at a way of adding an additional round of the playoffs, which will add revenues. In the future, imagine a one day event with 4 play in games. That will be must see TV on both sides of the boarder.

If anything, after expansion, I could see the schedule increasing to 90 games. Again, more revenue generation. In a gate driven league, thats huge.

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02-25-2013, 08:03 PM
  #524
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The PA proposed this? That's the first I've heard that. I don't think that's the case.
That was my understanding. This was the PAs counter to the NHL original plan.

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02-25-2013, 08:05 PM
  #525
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What a relief to have the MountainHawk on my side for a change. Imagine giving a 5th place team, with 10 to 20 pts less than the 4th place team, a shot at gaining a Playoff spot by way of a wildcard game.
Imagine a team with 20 points less than a 5th place team and getting home ice advantage in the first round. That happens in the current structure.

Imagine a team playing in a weak division getting to play 4 weak teams 6 times a year. It happens with the current system.

Every system is going to have its flaws. To me, I see more financial benefits with this move.

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