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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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Old
02-25-2013, 10:52 PM
  #551
canuckster19
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I'll throw this out there, when we get to the final 4, how about letting the first seeded team pick their opponent between 3 and 4 seed?

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02-25-2013, 10:56 PM
  #552
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This whole thing is so convoluted, and being made a hundred times harder than it ever should have to be. Again, just switch Nashville to the SE Div., Winnipeg to the West (NW div.), and then switch around Vancouver (to the Pacific) and Dallas (to the Central). Very simple. OR, just don't even have divisions and conferences anymore, and we can have a true 1-16 in the playoffs, and maybe actually have some variety instead. Regular-season scheduling can be determined by whatever method, I don't care, but at least we won't get the same exact match-ups shoved down our throats in the playoffs every season. And they'll still be unhappy teams, players, and fans still bellyaching about travel and start times, but why should this be such an issue? Again, these are highly-paid players who travel in relative luxury. These are businesses that are making millions upon millions in revenue, as is, and no fan is seriously put out because of when their teams' games start! Time to REALLY get some perspective here, especially as far as the fans and their whining goes! If you have to work the next day, then deal with it, you're not suffering a major hardship! Most Americans don't even know what hardship is, and that has led to a general sense of entitlement in society at large, and this is but a (very) small, but telling, symptom of that. Let's have a true league, not four little separate fiefdoms playing each other a gazillion times a season. And, I'm a Red Wings fan writing this, but I've had with it all the whining.

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02-25-2013, 10:58 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Sunking278 View Post
This whole thing is so convoluted, and being made a hundred times harder than it ever should have to be. Again, just switch Nashville to the SE Div., Winnipeg to the West (NW div.), and then switch around Vancouver (to the Pacific) and Dallas (to the Central). Very simple. OR, just don't even have divisions and conferences anymore, and we can have a true 1-16 in the playoffs, and maybe actually have some variety instead. Regular-season scheduling can be determined by whatever method, I don't care, but at least we won't get the same exact match-ups shoved down our throats in the playoffs every season. And they'll still be unhappy teams, players, and fans still bellyaching about travel and start times, but why should this be such an issue? Again, these are highly-paid players who travel in relative luxury. These are businesses that are making millions upon millions in revenue, as is, and no fan is seriously put out because of when their teams' games start! Time to REALLY get some perspective here, especially as far as the fans and their whining goes! If you have to work the next day, then deal with it, you're not suffering a major hardship! Most Americans don't even know what hardship is, and that has led to a general sense of entitlement in society at large, and this is but a (very) small, but telling, symptom of that. Let's have a true league, not four little separate fiefdoms playing each other a gazillion times a season. And, I'm a Red Wings fan writing this, but I've had with it all the whining.
I've scanned this post, but you seemed to have forgotten about Minnesota to the Central as well.....

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02-25-2013, 11:00 PM
  #554
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Now, since we’ve got the latest update on how the Playoff seeding may play out, back to this alignment and the question of how Quebec City could be put into the picture. I’m still speculating (and hoping) that one way it could work is the following:

Possibly an eventual eight 4-team Divisions:

Boston, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec City (Quebec City expansion)

Toronto, Buffalo, Detroit, Chicago (Detroit rejoins Chicago taking Toronto and Buffalo with it)

NY Rangers, NY Islanders, New Jersey, Philadelphia

Pittsburgh, Washington, Carolina, Columbus (explaining the addition of Columbus into that group)

Edmonton, Calgary, Vancouver, Seattle (Seattle expansion)

San Jose, Los Angeles, Anaheim, Phoenix/Portland

Winnipeg, Minnesota, St Louis, Colorado (explaining the addition of Colorado into that group)

Dallas, Nashville, Tampa Bay, Florida

18 games = 6 x 3
16 games = 4 x 4
48 games = 2 x 24
82 games

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02-25-2013, 11:10 PM
  #555
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Djp View Post
An alternate proposal:

W: SJ, ANA, LA, PHX, VAN, CGY, EDM
C: WPG, MIN, COL, DAL, STL, CHI, NASH
E: BUF, TOR, MON, OTT, BOS, NYI, NYR, NJ
A: DET, PHL, PIT, CBS, CAR, WAS, TB, FL
If you really want to fix that latest alignment proposal, without disrupting those untouchable NE and AT Divisions, while still keeping all the ETZ teams in the two eastern Divisions/Conferences, there's only 1 way to do it:

Pac: Edm, Cal, Van, SJ, LA, Ana, Pho
Cen: Col, Dal, StL, Nas, Chi, Min, Win
NoE: Bos, Mon, Ott, Tor, Buf, Det, Clb, Car
Atl: NYR, NYI, NJ, Phi, Pit, Was, TB, Flo

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02-25-2013, 11:12 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by MuckOG View Post
I've scanned this post, but you seemed to have forgotten about Minnesota to the Central as well.....
No, there's no reason why Minnesota shouldn't be in the NW w/ Colorado, Calgary, Edmonton, & Winnipeg. Not that they wouldn't fit in the Central Div., but we're not going to put Dallas in Northwest Division (not at least without changing the division's name, anyway), and Vancouver should be in the Pacific, as anyone with any sense of geography can figure out.

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02-25-2013, 11:16 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by NHL Dude 120 View Post
Points
3 for a regulation win
2 for an 1st overtime win
1 for an 2nd overtime point
1 for a shootout win
0 points for a loss
What about keeping each game worth the same?

W/OTW 3 or 2
SOW 2 or 1 1/3
SOL 1 or 2/3
L/OTL 0

Or :
W 2
L 0
The "ties" serves as tiebreakers (OTL,SOL).

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02-25-2013, 11:24 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by Kebekoi View Post
What about keeping each game worth the same?

W/OTW 3 or 2
SOW 2 or 1 1/3
SOL 1 or 2/3
L/OTL 0

Or :
W 2
L 0
The "ties" serves as tiebreakers (OTL,SOL).
Wrong thread Kebekoi, but better yet is: 10 min OT. If no one scores, it's a tie. Then, points are 2-1-0.

And, if you keep the shootout, and OT wins and Reg wins are worth the same, why bother with the OT in the first place?

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02-25-2013, 11:28 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by NHL Dude 120 View Post
I wrote something like this in another thread but i thought it would be relevant, if and when the NHL does align they should make it so that all teams will

- Have played in every arena once
- even distribution of teams in every division
- allow for inter-conference playoffs, I may be a new fan but its kinda annoying that eastern conference teams play, well eastern conference teams. this probably wouldn't happen but it kinda annoys me. I'd like to see more rivals develop.
- Have games start at 7:00 ( in the time zones) in order to allow eastern teams to watch western games.


Divisions

- Five divisions of 6 teams. Each team plays each other home and away three times. total of 30 division games played by each team. I've calculated that there would be a total of 90 games per division. for a total of 450 division games.

- Furthermore there would be inter-division games, each team plays each other home and away. 24 home and 24 away games. that totals up to 576 home and 576 away games for a whopping 1152 games.

- that's a total of 1602 games a season.

- I've also accounted for Phoenix relocating as well im assuming they move to Quebec. However this could also work if instead the team relocate to Hamilton

- Due note Dallas, Nashville Winnipeg, St.Louis, Chicago Colorado,Minnesota have different time zones i tried my best to find a compromise on that issue. Some of them will play earlier instead.

-Teams who are playing in a different time Zone will be eased into the changes I.e San Jose wont play say Montreal then Vancouver they would play (in no order at all) Toronto Detroit New York(either ISL or RAN) to ease them into the time Zone. this way travel is not as bad.

Here are the Divisions(I'm making up names)

Norris Division:
Ottawa
Toronto
Detroit
Boston
Montreal
*Quebec

Vezina Division:
New York Islanders
New York Rangers
Buffalo
New Jersey
Carolina
Nashville

Art Ross Division:
Vancouver
Edmonton
Calgary
Winnipeg
Chicago
Minnesota

Rocket Richard Division:
Anaheim
Los Angeles
San Jose
Colorado
Dallas
St.Louis

Hart Division:
Pittsburgh
Philadelphia
Washington
Tampa
Florida
Columbus

.
And in 2 of those divisions you have teams crossing 2 time zones for division games. The whole point is to get games in division in the same or maybe one time zone away.

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02-25-2013, 11:29 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by Sunking278 View Post
No, there's no reason why Minnesota shouldn't be in the NW w/ Colorado, Calgary, Edmonton, & Winnipeg. Not that they wouldn't fit in the Central Div., but we're not going to put Dallas in Northwest Division (not at least without changing the division's name, anyway), and Vancouver should be in the Pacific, as anyone with any sense of geography can figure out.
Thankfully (for Wild fans, at least), the NHL thinks differently.

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02-25-2013, 11:30 PM
  #561
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Great news! Best news, if it ultimately proves to be true, best news I've heard on this whole realignment issue since hearing that the PA rejected the previous proposal.


Now the issue is: How to fit in those 4 wildcard teams. If it's a 3/5 scenario, then there obviously has to be a crossover. And with 4 Conferences, not Divisions, just how to you manage a crossover scenario?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainHawk View Post
Top 3 per conference, next best 4 will be the wildcards. I don't think it means more games. Preference given to staying in own conference, so I would imagine they would ship the seeds >4 out to other conferences. The only question is if you make the top seed play the crossover, or save them the travel and make it 1 v 3 and 2 v crossover. Maybe give the 1 seed the choice.
4 Wild Card teams is great news. If one conference has 3 playoff teams and another has 5 then just rank the teams from both conferences and pair the two teams from the lesser represented conference whose relative rank best approaches 1v8, 2v7, etc... (erring toward the middle of the grouping) and go from there.

If two conferences have 5 teams and two have 3, then the two western conferences will be paired (even if this is 6 or 10 teams rather than 8) as will the two eastern conferences.

Repeat considerations for Round 2. This means that no more than 1 series in the first two rounds will cross timezones (not counting divisional teams already in different timezones).

I'd definitely suggest a league-wide reseeding for the Stanley Cup Semifinals. As soon as you have wild-cards, postseason "conference" champs won't mean a thing; it'd be silly for Boston or Anaheim to win the other's conference championship. The series hosting the westernmost Stanley Cup semifinalist will compete for the Clarence Campbell Trophy; the other series for the Prince of Wales Trophy.

With current standings and the proposed conferences:

Adams: 1) Montreal 2) Ottawa 3) Boston 4*) Toronto 5*) Detroit
Patrick: 1) Pittsburgh 2) New Jersey 3) Tampa Bay
Norris: 1) Chicago 2) Nashville 3) St. Louis 4*) Dallas
Smythe: 1) Anaheim 2) Vancouver 3) San Jose 4*) Phoenix

ROUND ONE (# seed for Adams/Patrick relative rankings)
Chicago vs. Dallas
Nashville vs. St. Louis
Anaheim vs. Phoenix
Vancouver vs. San Jose
1 Montreal vs. 7 Detroit
2 Pittsburgh vs. 8 Tampa Bay **these Patrick teams closest to traditional pairing
3 Ottawa vs. 6 Toronto
4 Boston vs. 5 New Jersey *cross-conference series

ROUND TWO (# seed for Adams/Patrick relative rankings)
Chicago vs. St. Louis
Anaheim vs. Vancouver
1 Montreal vs. 6 Toronto
2 Pittsburgh vs. 4 Boston *cross-conference series

SC SEMIFINALS (league-wide reseeding; # league-wide ranking)
1 Chicago vs. 7 Boston (Prince of Wales Trophy)
2 Montreal vs. 3 Anaheim (Clarence Campbell Trophy)

STANLEY CUP FINALS
Montreal vs. Boston

Of course, I still like my 3 conference idea with 8-6-16 teams (west to east) in each conference. Half of each conference goes to the playoffs and a 16th wild-card team is placed in the Central Division playoff; after two rounds the 4 remaining teams are reseeded league-wide.


Last edited by Crayton: 02-25-2013 at 11:37 PM.
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02-25-2013, 11:30 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by Kebekoi View Post
What about keeping each game worth the same?

W/OTW 3 or 2
SOW 2 or 1 1/3
SOL 1 or 2/3
L/OTL 0

Or :
W 2
L 0
The "ties" serves as tiebreakers (OTL,SOL).
I guess it could be done, i keep hearing people moan about penalty shoot-outs and i figured if teams potentially lose a point it would discourage running the clock in overtime or in regulation. these points do add up and could affect playoff seeds

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02-25-2013, 11:45 PM
  #563
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TSN "Insiders" just confirmed that although details are sketchy right now...the top three in each Conference are in...and some kind of wildcard team for each Conference will be the fourth team (no idea how this would work at this time).

Sixteen teams ultimately make the playoffs with NO one game play-in as has been rumored.

First and Second rounds would be "within Conference" (and this seems to be the tricky/unknown part).
This is basically what I've been advocating. Great minds think alike.

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02-25-2013, 11:46 PM
  #564
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And in 2 of those divisions you have teams crossing 2 time zones for division games. The whole point is to get games in division in the same or maybe one time zone away.
yeah , you got a point but it was first attempt at it at a realignment structure and i was bound to make mistakes, i made a gaffe and separated tampa and florida so i just randomly plugged teams to fix it up.

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02-25-2013, 11:58 PM
  #565
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Hey, Petes, do you have a link to that?
This is an article about the effects on Winnipeg, but they have this mentioned at the bottom...
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2013/...hl-realignment
Quote:
***Edit 7:42 PM*** Insider Trading on TSN just reported this evening that only the top-3 teams in each conference would make the playoffs, and than the final 4 spots would be filled via cross-overs/wild-cards. That's an interesting twist.

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02-25-2013, 11:59 PM
  #566
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4 Wild Card teams is great news. If one conference has 3 playoff teams and another has 5 then just rank the teams from both conferences and pair the two teams from the lesser represented conference whose relative rank best approaches 1v8, 2v7, etc... (erring toward the middle of the grouping) and go from there.

If two conferences have 5 teams and two have 3, then the two western conferences will be paired (even if this is 6 or 10 teams rather than 8) as will the two eastern conferences.

Repeat considerations for Round 2. This means that no more than 1 series in the first two rounds will cross timezones (not counting divisional teams already in different timezones).

I'd definitely suggest a league-wide reseeding for the Stanley Cup Semifinals. As soon as you have wild-cards, postseason "conference" champs won't mean a thing; it'd be silly for Boston or Anaheim to win the other's conference championship. The series hosting the westernmost Stanley Cup semifinalist will compete for the Clarence Campbell Trophy; the other series for the Prince of Wales Trophy.

With current standings and the proposed conferences:

Adams: 1) Montreal 2) Ottawa 3) Boston 4*) Toronto 5*) Detroit
Patrick: 1) Pittsburgh 2) New Jersey 3) Tampa Bay
Norris: 1) Chicago 2) Nashville 3) St. Louis 4*) Dallas
Smythe: 1) Anaheim 2) Vancouver 3) San Jose 4*) Phoenix

ROUND ONE (# seed for Adams/Patrick relative rankings)
Chicago vs. Dallas
Nashville vs. St. Louis
Anaheim vs. Phoenix
Vancouver vs. San Jose
1 Montreal vs. 7 Detroit
2 Pittsburgh vs. 8 Tampa Bay **these Patrick teams closest to traditional pairing
3 Ottawa vs. 6 Toronto
4 Boston vs. 5 New Jersey *cross-conference series

ROUND TWO (# seed for Adams/Patrick relative rankings)
Chicago vs. St. Louis
Anaheim vs. Vancouver
1 Montreal vs. 6 Toronto
2 Pittsburgh vs. 4 Boston *cross-conference series

SC SEMIFINALS (league-wide reseeding; # league-wide ranking)
1 Chicago vs. 7 Boston (Prince of Wales Trophy)
2 Montreal vs. 3 Anaheim (Clarence Campbell Trophy)

STANLEY CUP FINALS
Montreal vs. Boston

Of course, I still like my 3 conference idea with 8-6-16 teams (west to east) in each conference. Half of each conference goes to the playoffs and a 16th wild-card team is placed in the Central Division playoff; after two rounds the 4 remaining teams are reseeded league-wide.
Great explanation and a good idea, too.

But, what if you had:

Adams: 1) Montreal 2) Ottawa 3) Boston 4*) Toronto 5*) Detroit
Patrick: 1) Pittsburgh 2) New Jersey 3) Tampa Bay 4*) Florida
Norris: 1) Chicago 2) Nashville 3) St. Louis 4*) Dallas
Smythe: 1) Anaheim 2) Vancouver 3) San Jose ??

I am not looking at standings right now, but let's assume it's (for the Adams and Smythe)

1Montreal 2Anaheim
3Ottawa 4Boston
5Vancouver 6San Jose
7Toronto 8Detroit

I am assuming you are suggesting that the Anaheim/San Jose pairing hold.
So, it's:Montreal v Detroit; Anaheim V San Jose; Ottawa v Toronto; Boston v Vancouver???

Now let's say Boston wins, and Montreal, Toronto and San Jose:
Then: 1Montreal, 2Boston, 3San Jose, 4Toronto.
So, it's Montreal v Toronto, Boston v San Jose?

Let's say Montreal and Boston win. Now, what happened in the other 2 conferences? Presumably, we have something like Chicago and Rangers. But, it could be Chicago and Nashville. Do you Re-seed? Then, you could get Boston v Chicago and Montreal v Nashville. And, finally, Boston v Nashville. Keep in mind the Bruins could be facing Colorado here also.

So, Boston needs, by chance, to win 4 series out of TZ. 2 of them with PTZ. 1 with MTZ? (Col), and 1 CTZ to win the Cup.

Now, I like this system. I really do. 4 wild cards is good to me. But, it does leave this kind of a thing as a possibility. And, you can't fix it by linking the 2 ETZ conferences either, because then you have 8/14 and 8/16.

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02-26-2013, 12:06 AM
  #567
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Yeah, this four conference thing and the specific teams in them makes very little sense to me. I mean you had teams moaning and groaning about time zone travel so now this helps to fix it but instead you have teams like Florida and Tampa Bay in the same division as Ottawa etc and the like so it is almost as if to say 'fine, here's how we get you by making travel so much worse but don't worry, you will still be in the same time zone.' (so in essence teams like Detroit probably screwed teams like Tampa Bay in that regard due to their complaints since I highly doubt Tampa was complaining about anything but I digress) All these crazy plans do is make certain teems more unhappy than the teams that are complaining right now (and some of them in my opinion really shouldn't be) I agree with those who said only a very few number teams need division movement.

Also, while not a huge issue I have no idea how what is now the Atlantic division needs two or three more teams (Carolina and Washington and like this thread I've seen Columbus as well but in others they aren't a part of it) in it.


Last edited by davebenj: 02-26-2013 at 12:13 AM.
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02-26-2013, 12:13 AM
  #568
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I don't know why people keep suggesting Nashville to the SE, Winnipeg to the NW. That is essentially the same problem you had with Columbus and Detroit. Winnipeg fans do not want to be with Calgary and Vancouver, and Nashville fans don't want to be in a different time zone and be with Florida, Carolina or NY. It'll be fine the way it is.

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02-26-2013, 12:23 AM
  #569
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Originally Posted by Kebekoi View Post
What about keeping each game worth the same?

W/OTW 3 or 2
SOW 2 or 1 1/3
SOL 1 or 2/3
L/OTL 0

Or :
W 2
L 0
The "ties" serves as tiebreakers (OTL,SOL).
Alternatively, what about applying the postseason OT rules to the regular season? Then you end up with a straight-up W-L record.

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02-26-2013, 12:32 AM
  #570
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HNIC Saturday announcement was surprising by jamming all eastern teams together. What happens in 2016 when a potential $550-600M in expansion for Toronto and Quebec City comes forward. Do you put them in the central time zone. No Battle of Quebec? This is nuts. I thought they might put 1. Mtn and Pacific together; Edm Clg Vnc Sea(Phx) Col Sj La Ana, 2. Central consist of Wpg, Min, Chi, Det, Tor2, Clu, Stl Dal 3. North has Bos Que C Mtl Ott Tor Buf Nsh (cuts the distance to the south and provides a southern rival for) Car and 4 Atlantic has Ny Brk Nj Phl Pit Wsh Tb Flr This made more sense for the central would have 3 east vs 5 cent time cities better for Det. State of Flr is a better rival for big north-east US cities. The way they would have it would radically change in 3 years. How forward thinking is that unless they suspect not 1 but 3 franchise relocations

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02-26-2013, 12:34 AM
  #571
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Alternatively, what about applying the postseason OT rules to the regular season? Then you end up with a straight-up W-L record.
With back to backs and travel they don't want endless games in the regular season. I'm one that is fine with ties but many aren't so we have to deal with the shootout.

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02-26-2013, 12:38 AM
  #572
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Originally Posted by Leaf Forever View Post
HNIC Saturday announcement was surprising by jamming all eastern teams together. What happens in 2016 when a potential $550-600M in expansion for Toronto and Quebec City comes forward. Do you put them in the central time zone. No Battle of Quebec? This is nuts. I thought they might put 1. Mtn and Pacific together; Edm Clg Vnc Sea(Phx) Col Sj La Ana, 2. Central consist of Wpg, Min, Chi, Det, Tor2, Clu, Stl Dal 3. North has Bos Que C Mtl Ott Tor Buf Nsh (cuts the distance to the south and provides a southern rival for) Car and 4 Atlantic has Ny Brk Nj Phl Pit Wsh Tb Flr This made more sense for the central would have 3 east vs 5 cent time cities better for Det. State of Flr is a better rival for big north-east US cities. The way they would have it would radically change in 3 years. How forward thinking is that unless they suspect not 1 but 3 franchise relocations
I think your missing the point. Colorado doesn't want to play in the Pacific, Nashville doesn't want to play in the eastern time zone, and for some reason you have them with the north east instead of the south, Columbus and Detroit both want to be in the west.

The whole thing is basically because of time zones. This proposal moves Dallas, Colorado, Winnipeg, Detroit, and Columbus into divisions that actually help them. Your proposal is just creating the same problems.

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02-26-2013, 01:29 AM
  #573
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I fail to see how Montreal flying to Florida is somehow worse than Edmonton flying to LA

Sure, there are a bunch of other teams between Montreal and Miami, but if the Atlantic teams wanna stick together, so be it
That is a good point as well. Edmonton and Los Angeles should not be in the same division that's for sure.

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02-26-2013, 01:33 AM
  #574
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This is an article about the effects on Winnipeg, but they have this mentioned at the bottom...
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2013/...hl-realignment
It sounds as if it would be something as I mentioned.....

With the west conference of 2 7 team divisions....

top 3 in each make the playoffs those are seeded 1-6. then 7-10 are determined based on standings and maybe a best of 3 play in round for playoffs.

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02-26-2013, 01:45 AM
  #575
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Originally Posted by Leaf Forever View Post
HNIC Saturday announcement was surprising by jamming all eastern teams together. What happens in 2016 when a potential $550-600M in expansion for Toronto and Quebec City comes forward. Do you put them in the central time zone. No Battle of Quebec? This is nuts. I thought they might put 1. Mtn and Pacific together; Edm Clg Vnc Sea(Phx) Col Sj La Ana, 2. Central consist of Wpg, Min, Chi, Det, Tor2, Clu, Stl Dal 3. North has Bos Que C Mtl Ott Tor Buf Nsh (cuts the distance to the south and provides a southern rival for) Car and 4 Atlantic has Ny Brk Nj Phl Pit Wsh Tb Flr This made more sense for the central would have 3 east vs 5 cent time cities better for Det. State of Flr is a better rival for big north-east US cities. The way they would have it would radically change in 3 years. How forward thinking is that unless they suspect not 1 but 3 franchise relocations

If they expanded 2 teams to canada....

What would likely happen is a slight realignment of teams:

1. south division is created where Dallas, Nashville, Tampa Bay, Florida make up a division. Tampa and Florida move opens up the 2 spots for Canadian teams.

2. Colorado goes West forming

SJ-VAN-CGY-EDM LA-ANA-PHX-COL or SEA-VAN-CGY-EDM LA-ANA-SJ-COL

3. The remainder of the Central...STL, MN, CHI and WPG make up a new division.

4, The remaining 16 teams would have competitive pairs:

DET-Markum OTT-QUE
TOR-BUF MON-BOS
WAS-CAR NYI-NYR
CBS-PIT NJ-PHL

2 pairs create one 4 team division.

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