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Game #19: at Nashville, 2/25 (7:00 PM, NBC Sports Network, 1310 AM, 104.1 FM)

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Old
02-25-2013, 10:18 PM
  #626
StarsFan74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
I hate to make more excuses for Nieuwy because I already think he gets too much of a free pass, but he did inherit a team with essentially zero defensive depth in the farm system. Ivan Vishnevskiy was the only d prospect of any substance in the system, and he had already shown he did not have the drive to be an NHL player, even if his skill was obviously there.

Of course, Nieuwy did himself no favors by using his first two first rounders on a center and a goalie even when there were no high level d prospects ready.
Glennie was a winger when he was drafted, wasn't he?


And he's now a bust.

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02-25-2013, 10:18 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
Can't say that he's refused to do that, but that he didn't utilize the opportunities presented to him to improve the defense very well.

Also, it's an average-to-poor UFA pool this off-season for d-men.
In two drafts hes passed on the following

Jared Cowan
Ryan Ellis
Dimitry Kulikov
Cam Fowler
Brandon Gormley
David Rundblad
John Moore

seeing how we have had a combined 1 NHL game from our top picks in 2009 and 2010 its pretty hard to have any sympathy for him.

if only we had just one of those players

His only solution was trade away our best goal scoring forward for a 3rd pairing defenseman

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02-25-2013, 10:23 PM
  #628
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Originally Posted by catters078 View Post
In two drafts hes passed on the following

Jared Cowan
Ryan Ellis
Dimitry Kulikov
Cam Fowler
Brandon Gormley
David Rundblad
John Moore

seeing how we have had a combined 1 NHL game from our top picks in 2009 and 2010 its pretty hard to have any sympathy for him.

if only we had just one of those players

His only solution was trade away our best goal scoring forward for a 3rd pairing defenseman
Cowen and Fowler are squarely on him, since they were drafted immediately after his picks. I love it when his apologists at DBD keep insisting that he fired the guy responsible for Campbell (and Glennie?) and we should let the past go (and yet will rake Hicks through hot coals at every given opportunity), but fact remains that on the draft floor the GM gets to make the final decision. He failed at two attempts at drafting good d-men, if not franchise d-men, and barring sacrificing one of our offensive pieces to get that no.1 d-man, I don't see the problem fixing itself in the near future.

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02-25-2013, 10:52 PM
  #629
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I am amped for six games a year against the Stars. Hell of a game.

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02-25-2013, 11:01 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by Modo View Post
Well we can't beat Calgary or Columbus, why should Nashville produce a different outcome?

This team frustrates the hell out of me. I wish I knew what GM Joe is waiting for....defense in shambles for well over a year but nothing gets done. ...
That was one of the most exciting games of the year- just came over here to get the Stars fans view of the game.

But I am curious as to why you guys are comparing Nashville to Columbus/Calgary, and acting like you just lost to a bottom feeder.

Last time I checked, the Predators are not only ahead of the Stars in the standings this year, but have also finished ahead of the Stars for the last 4 seasons....... I don't get it.

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02-25-2013, 11:05 PM
  #631
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Originally Posted by drwpreds View Post
But I am curious as to why you guys are comparing Nashville to Columbus/Calgary, and acting like you just lost to a bottom feeder.
He was saying we can't beat Columbus or Calgary, so why should we be able to beat Nashville....

We blew a 2 goal lead though and gave up 5 goals to a team who is the lowest scoring team in the league and had not scored in the 2 games prior to tonight.

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02-25-2013, 11:13 PM
  #632
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Originally Posted by catters078 View Post
What do we expect when our defense is as poor as it is and we have our back up in net.

in the 4 years hes been at the helm Joe's refusal to improve the defense is digusting.
People have already pointed this out ... you know this is silly right?

Was he going to go out in free agency with no owner and fix the D?

.. and Troy ... GMJN was in the GM for position weeks when the 2009 draft happened. He wasn't calling the shots. The guy that was was fired 2 years later ... a surprise to no one.

The GM doesn't scout these guys and make the picks. They rely on their scouting staff, and it's no surprise that Dallas' drafting has been great when Les Jackson took full control.

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02-25-2013, 11:15 PM
  #633
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It's more our failure yet again to hold a lead compounded by poor defensive play, bad goaltending, and the constant penalty parade in the 2nd period.

Dallas has some decent pieces but like a lot of young teams they are going to have their ups and downs. The kids weren't lights out because Oleksiak and J. Benn weren't very good and Fraser was obviously nervous but you can see glimpses of what the team could be in the future. R. Smith is coming into his own and I think both he and Eakin have benefited by playing with Ryder. Just as Garbutt has found his spot with Fids and Nystrom, and Benn can only be helped by Jagr.

If we could get rid of some of the dead weight and improve the defense the offense is more than good enough to compete with anyone in this league. Unfortunately that's not going to happen soon or without a blockbuster Eriksson for someone type deal. Otherwise we've got to wait for the kid defenders, pray for Kari's health or try to get some over paid guy from another team at the draft.

I don't want to rehash the disasters at the draft but Kulikov or Cowen and Fowler absolutely have to be laid at Niewendyk's feet. If Bernhardt made those calls, and I know he did, then everyone else has to say no and force Joe's hand. They cannot be taking stabs at reaches like Glennie or a freaking goalie with top 15 picks. Hopefully with Les Jackson now in charge mistakes like that will not continue to happen.

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02-25-2013, 11:16 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by StarsFan74 View Post
Cowen and Fowler are squarely on him, since they were drafted immediately after his picks. I love it when his apologists at DBD keep insisting that he fired the guy responsible for Campbell (and Glennie?) and we should let the past go (and yet will rake Hicks through hot coals at every given opportunity), but fact remains that on the draft floor the GM gets to make the final decision. He failed at two attempts at drafting good d-men, if not franchise d-men, and barring sacrificing one of our offensive pieces to get that no.1 d-man, I don't see the problem fixing itself in the near future.
Yeah ...a rookie GM with a few weeks on the job was calling the shots at the draft table. That makes a ton of sense.

GM's run the NHL team ... that's why there is a large scouting team that handles the drafts and makes recommendations. You think Holland is flying around the world watching every draft pick himself? Every GM is making picks based on the recommendations of his scouting staff. With the exception of 1st round picks, the majority of GM's probably haven't seen a single game of the guys they are drafting.

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02-25-2013, 11:19 PM
  #635
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... and that's not being an apologist pointing out the Bernhardt firing. That's having an accurate understanding of the way amateur scouting works in the NHL.

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02-25-2013, 11:21 PM
  #636
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Fraser has an electric shot. I hope he continues to get his feet wet and get over those nerves because that ability to know where to go married with a shot like that has 30 goal scorer written all over it. He needs more than 10 minutes Gully. Play the damn kids.

Kari coming back is going to give this team a chance but I'm seriously at the point where this franchise would be far better served with a top five pick and trading the vets, playing the kids, and focusing on rebuilding the defense next year. I want to keep Eriksson, Lehtonen, Fiddler, Nystrom, Daley, and Whitney from the older guys and everyone else can go.

Whoever in this thread coined Jagr-Benn-Pylon...take a bow as I damn near snarfed water through my nose.

Can we trade some of our offense to Nashville for some of their defense? Good Lord every time I turn around another young defender they drafted is playing well in the NHL.

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02-25-2013, 11:26 PM
  #637
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I don't know why this comes up over and over again, but it's getting old:

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The model varies from table to table, but most teams put the running of the draft table in the hands of the director of amateur scouting and/or the assistant GM, while the GM takes a step back to let his troops conduct the business of restocking the prospect shelves.

Having a GM make selections based on seeing a young player perhaps once or twice as opposed to the 15 to 20 times an amateur scout will see the player "is the most dangerous scouting of all," St. Louis GM Doug Armstrong said.

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02-25-2013, 11:32 PM
  #638
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Originally Posted by Hull Fan View Post

Can we trade some of our offense to Nashville for some of their defense? Good Lord every time I turn around another young defender they drafted is playing well in the NHL.
We'll take Benn off your hands if you are tired of him.

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02-25-2013, 11:36 PM
  #639
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
... and that's not being an apologist pointing out the Bernhardt firing. That's having an accurate understanding of the way amateur scouting works in the NHL.
When his scouts tell him they like Glennie best, he has the power to tell them to give him the best d-man available, or he can trade up or down to get to one.

There is no excuse for the Campbell pick. A year had passed. I don't care who the scouts were. Picking a goalie there was his decision.

It is being an apologist to absolve him of blame for picks made on his watch. Nieuwy didn't scout those players, but he signed off on the picks knowing what positions those players played. The quote about restocking shelves is a good one. Nieuwy knew he had no d-men, and he did nothing with those picks to get a d-man. That's on him, and it may end up being some of the reason why he's fired this summer if the Stars miss the playoffs.

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02-25-2013, 11:41 PM
  #640
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Yeah ...a rookie GM with a few weeks on the job was calling the shots at the draft table. That makes a ton of sense.
Makes sense the 2nd time round, if you want to play the rookie card in 2009. It still made no sense to pick a guy the team didn't even talk to in 2009 (Glennie).

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GM's run the NHL team ... that's why there is a large scouting team that handles the drafts and makes recommendations. You think Holland is flying around the world watching every draft pick himself?
He does NOT?!!! OMG!!! You don't say!

Seriously, stop taking me for a fool and take that condescending tone elsewhere.

Quote:
Every GM is making picks based on the recommendations of his scouting staff. With the exception of 1st round picks, the majority of GM's probably haven't seen a single game of the guys they are drafting.
Most times it is the Assistant GM who usually runs the scouting and when it comes to decision-making, there is almost always a heated discussion with each scout vying for his pick to be taken by the organization. It's in this melee where the head honcho has to weigh in the data and information provided by the scouts and make the decision on whom to pick. Like I said the Assistant GM is the guy who usually runs the draft show, it doesn't mean the GM doesn't ever have any say.

Take a good hard look at this all-access video on the Blues 2007 draft and pay specific attention to the part where Larry Pleau clearly lists out the pecking order in terms of decision-making on the draft floor.

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... and that's not being an apologist pointing out the Bernhardt firing. That's having an accurate understanding of the way amateur scouting works in the NHL.
Oh poppycock! Those guys eat off of JN's hands as if he were the guy calling ALL the RIGHT shots at the draft, but if something ****s up, it's all on Bernhardt or someone else. That's the hypocrisy they seem to delve in a great deal.


Last edited by StarsFan74: 02-25-2013 at 11:56 PM.
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02-25-2013, 11:41 PM
  #641
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
When his scouts tell him they like Glennie best, he has the power to tell them to give him the best d-man available, or he can trade up or down to get to one.

There is no excuse for the Campbell pick. A year had passed. I don't care who the scouts were. Picking a goalie there was his decision.

It is being an apologist to absolve him of blame for picks made on his watch. Nieuwy didn't scout those players, but he signed off on the picks knowing what positions those players played.
Bernhardt ... a goalie ... told him Campbell was Top 3 in the draft. I can't believe he trusted his director of scouting ... and to think Fowler is essentially the next Pietrangelo and Campbell is barely hanging on in the AHL.

I honestly don't care anymore. It really is one of the silliest arguments on this board. The draft process is straightforward, and people will think what they want. For all the obvious mistakes GM Joe has made ... people are still going to point to the draft.

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02-25-2013, 11:46 PM
  #642
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Originally Posted by Troy McClure View Post
When his scouts tell him they like Glennie best, he has the power to tell them to give him the best d-man available, or he can trade up or down to get to one.

There is no excuse for the Campbell pick. A year had passed. I don't care who the scouts were. Picking a goalie there was his decision.

It is being an apologist to absolve him of blame for picks made on his watch. Nieuwy didn't scout those players, but he signed off on the picks knowing what positions those players played. The quote about restocking shelves is a good one. Nieuwy knew he had no d-men, and he did nothing with those picks to get a d-man. That's on him, and it may end up being some of the reason why he's fired this summer if the Stars miss the playoffs.
Whilst heaping all the accolades for Dillon, Smith, Fraser, Chiasson, Oleksiak, etc. etc....because that's just JN's Conn Smythe-winning genius at work.

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02-25-2013, 11:50 PM
  #643
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This argument is dumb. Nilstorp's .830 SV% was the issue tonight, not the D.

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02-25-2013, 11:55 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
Bernhardt ... a goalie ... told him Campbell was Top 3 in the draft. I can't believe he trusted his director of scouting ... and to think Fowler is essentially the next Pietrangelo and Campbell is barely hanging on in the AHL.
But of course, the ubiquitous strawman argument.

Forget director of scouting or the janitors union leader and simply answer this: Were this team's needs in the off-season of 2010 a franchise goalie (after having recently acquired a 26-27 y.o. Lehtonen) or was it a puck-moving d-man?

Quote:
For all the obvious mistakes GM Joe has made ... people are still going to point to the draft.
The draft is ALSO his mistake and ALSO his triumph (should he succeed overall). I'm sure his apologists will be quick to erect a statue and bathe it with milk if the latter should happen.

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02-25-2013, 11:57 PM
  #645
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Originally Posted by BigG44 View Post
Bernhardt ... a goalie ... told him Campbell was Top 3 in the draft. I can't believe he trusted his director of scouting ... and to think Fowler is essentially the next Pietrangelo and Campbell is barely hanging on in the AHL.

I honestly don't care anymore. It really is one of the silliest arguments on this board. The draft process is straightforward, and people will think what they want. For all the obvious mistakes GM Joe has made ... people are still going to point to the draft.
It's not about Fowler. I never once wrote his name.

And of course people are going to look at the draft. It'a the primary way a team is built. If Nieuwy's picks aren't good, that more than anything else will cost him his job.

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02-26-2013, 12:07 AM
  #646
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Forget director of scouting or the janitors union leader and simply answer this: Were this team's needs in the off-season of 2010 a franchise goalie (after having recently acquired a 26-27 y.o. Lehtonen) or was it a puck-moving d-man?
Why would you draft for need in the 1st round?

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02-26-2013, 12:17 AM
  #647
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Why would you draft for need in the 1st round?
There's this, obviously.

Campbell has probably some of the highest potential of any player from that draft still, outside of maybe Seguin, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, and Granlund. There's an argument for him being the BPA at that point, especially back in 2010, and we have to see what we have with him before considering that pick a failure.

Glennie is a terrible, terrible pick, we all know that. I fail to see how any of that blame could go towards GMJN though. I'd be willing to bet he had very little, if any at all, say in that pick. Nothing we can do now, the problem obviously seems fixed (our drafting has been stellar for a few years now), and one pick wouldn't make or break this team.

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02-26-2013, 12:33 AM
  #648
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Originally Posted by MetalGodAOD View Post
Why would you draft for need in the 1st round?
Why can you not, should that player fulfill the criterion as a BPA whilst addressing your (dire) need?

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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
There's this, obviously.

Campbell has probably some of the highest potential of any player from that draft still, outside of maybe Seguin, Tarasenko, Kuznetsov, and Granlund. There's an argument for him being the BPA at that point, especially back in 2010, and we have to see what we have with him before considering that pick a failure.
No one said he is a failure. Only that he's someone we didn't really need when a player like Fowler fell in our lap.

Edit: According to CS rankings, Pickard was ranked over Campbell amongst goalies.

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Glennie is a terrible, terrible pick, we all know that. I fail to see how any of that blame could go towards GMJN though. I'd be willing to bet he had very little, if any at all, say in that pick.
To say that he had no say or very little say at all is ludicrous. The team didn't even speak to Glennie. If he had little say, then he should have said "something little" and brought this glaring omission forth and asked his team to think this pick over again. It's not like the scouts told him to **** and sip his latte.

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02-26-2013, 12:49 AM
  #649
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I cant really blame Nieuwendyk for Glennie. He must have had very little info and trusted his guys. Lets remember the Stars didnt have any good RWers at that point either.

Philosophically I dont believe teams should be taking goalies as early as Campbell was taken. The goalie position is so dynamic with very few of them being consistently good/great from year to year. The point being I was never going to agree with that pick.

Lets also not forget that beyond the first round we got some damn fine prospects in both those drafts. Do we knock GMJN for Glennie and not give him credit for Chiasson, Reilly Smith and Tomas Vincour? I think a good GM has to trust his scouts on all the picks, not just the later ones.

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02-26-2013, 01:02 AM
  #650
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I cant really blame Nieuwendyk for Glennie. He must have had very little info and trusted his guys. Lets remember the Stars didnt have any good RWers at that point either.
There's the addressing need (over BPA) in round 1 argument. You do have a point, but remember that the team didn't talk to Glennie at all.


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Lets also not forget that beyond the first round we got some damn fine prospects in both those drafts. Do we knock GMJN for Glennie and not give him credit for Chiasson, Reilly Smith and Tomas Vincour?
If you give him credit for Chiasson, Oleksiak, etc., (and I do) then you knock him for Glennie (and Campbell).

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I think a good GM has to trust his scouts on all the picks, not just the later ones.
Scouts have their own bias, nonetheless. These guys travel like crazy and spend every waking moment scouring over their selections and do become emotionally invested in their selections. When the time comes for the big meeting they fight doggedly against other scouts, often embellishing their selections. It's really is up to the head honcho-- whomever that is-- to make a sensible decision.

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