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Yzerman vs Sakic

View Poll Results: Yzerman or Sakic
Stevie Y 65 41.67%
Sakic 91 58.33%
Voters: 156. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-26-2013, 09:23 AM
  #226
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
So what you are doing to get those finishes is: Giving credit to Yzerman for games he missed, but NOT applying this to every other player in the league (comparing Yzerman's PPG to other players points)?
If you want, we can do a straight PPG comparison.

I thought it might be helpful to get an actual feel for what the GPG/APG/PPG meant in terms of actual points each year.

So here's other data:

Total points from 87-88 through 93-94:

3. Yzerman 814
4. Robitaille 719
5. Oates 702

Yzerman is over 100 points ahead of the likely second-place finisher in a Gretzky/Lemieux-free NHL over the span in Oates, his former second-line center.

Now to total PPG.

3. Yzerman 1.55 (127.3 per 82)
4. LaFontaine 1.37 (112.1 per 82)
5. Oates 1.37 (112.0 per 82)

Doing what I did in averaging his yearly PPG perhaps gives him extra credit because his two worst years in his prime were healthy, and two much better years were spent missing 16 and 26 games. But he was still be by far the most dominant offensive player of the time period other than Gretzky and Lemieux. And would actually have the trophies to show for it. Sakic was not the most dominant offensive player in the league no matter what stretch of his career you pull up. Best forward? Yeah, at times. But never most dominant offensive player. And it wasn't until after at least 1998 that he was playing defense the way Yzerman played it in his prime.


Last edited by pdd: 02-26-2013 at 09:47 AM.
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Old
02-26-2013, 09:37 AM
  #227
unknown33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
But he was still be by far the most dominant offensive player of the time period.
What? When?

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Old
02-26-2013, 09:46 AM
  #228
pdd
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
What? When?
Oops. Forgot the "without Gretzky/Lemieux" part of the paragraph.

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Old
02-26-2013, 09:54 AM
  #229
quoipourquoi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I thought it might be helpful to get an actual feel for what the GPG/APG/PPG meant in terms of actual points each year.
But only for Yzerman, that way you could get away with saying he would have 4 Art Ross Trophies and two runner-up finishes if:

1. Gretzky and Lemieux didn't exist
2. Yzerman was healthy and no one else was
3. Yzerman was abnormally consistent, with his peaks of 155 and 137 points being spread out to turn seasons of 82/102/103/108/127 points into uniform 129 point seasons

Do you not see how far you've strayed from reality? Without Gretzky and Lemieux, Yzerman wins one Art Ross. Just one. Not four. His points-per-game finishes are as follows: 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9. His points finishes are: 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 12, 34. And you're trying to give him an Art Ross in the year where he finished 34th.

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Old
02-26-2013, 10:33 AM
  #230
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
But only for Yzerman, that way you could get away with saying he would have 4 Art Ross Trophies and two runner-up finishes if:

1. Gretzky and Lemieux didn't exist
2. Yzerman was healthy and no one else was
3. Yzerman was abnormally consistent, with his peaks of 155 and 137 points being spread out to turn seasons of 82/102/103/108/127 points into uniform 129 point seasons

Do you not see how far you've strayed from reality? Without Gretzky and Lemieux, Yzerman wins one Art Ross. Just one. Not four. His points-per-game finishes are as follows: 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9. His points finishes are: 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 12, 34. And you're trying to give him an Art Ross in the year where he finished 34th.
I did specify that it was an average, and say "If he posts those numbers", only intending to give an idea of how good they were compared to the league (obviously removing Yzerman's 137-point finish in 1993).

I know it's not Sakic-related, but I've always wondered what Messier and Yzerman would have done in 90 (and after for Yzerman) had Carson not walked out on Edmonton and been shipped to Detroit for a stupid price.

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Old
02-26-2013, 11:18 AM
  #231
Le Magnifique 66
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Joe Sakic for me was the better of the 2

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Old
02-26-2013, 08:14 PM
  #232
pdd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
But only for Yzerman, that way you could get away with saying he would have 4 Art Ross Trophies and two runner-up finishes if:

1. Gretzky and Lemieux didn't exist
2. Yzerman was healthy and no one else was
3. Yzerman was abnormally consistent, with his peaks of 155 and 137 points being spread out to turn seasons of 82/102/103/108/127 points into uniform 129 point seasons

Do you not see how far you've strayed from reality? Without Gretzky and Lemieux, Yzerman wins one Art Ross. Just one. Not four. His points-per-game finishes are as follows: 3, 4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9. His points finishes are: 3, 3, 4, 7, 7, 12, 34. And you're trying to give him an Art Ross in the year where he finished 34th.
Here's a better way of trying to show what I wanted to:

From 1987-88 to 1993-94:

1. Lemieux 2.25
2. Gretzky 1.90
3. Yzerman 1.55
4. LaFontaine 1.37
5. Oates 1.37
6. Messier 1.33
7. Hull 1.31
8. Robitaille 1.28
9. Gilmour 1.23
10. Recchi 1.23
11. Sakic 1.22
12. Coffey 1.22
13. Hawerchuk 1.21
14. Neely 1.20
15. Nicholls 1.20
16. Fedorov 1.19

Notable:
Yzerman is as close to Gretzky as Gretzky is to Lemieux (0.35). Yzerman at 3rd is as far ahead (0.18) of 4th place (LaFontaine) as he is ahead of 16th place (Fedorov). Only Gilmour and Fedorov from the top 16 were better defensive forwards than Yzerman during this period of Yzerman's career; most listed were well behind him in that area as well.

So a some have put it on HFboards, Yzerman was by far the best "mortal" forward during his prime. Sakic cannot make the same claim. Many would argue that Sakic wasn't even the best forward on his team during his prime.

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Old
02-26-2013, 10:22 PM
  #233
MadLuke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Yzerman is as close to Gretzky as Gretzky is to Lemieux (0.35).

In absolute number maybe Lemieux is scoring about 18.5% more points than wayne.

And wayne 22.5% more than Yzerman.

Messier was not a better defensive forward ?

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Old
02-26-2013, 10:30 PM
  #234
pdd
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Originally Posted by MadLuke View Post
In absolute number maybe Lemieux is scoring about 18.5% more points than wayne.

And wayne 22.5% more than Yzerman.

Messier was not a better defensive forward ?
Messier was at best equal. Hawerchuk more or less equal. Everyone else I haven't named was worse; in some cases worse to the degree that they were liabilities.

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