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Old
02-26-2013, 02:17 AM
  #151
LohiJ
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Couturier has Talbot and Rinaldo as his linemates. Talbot and Knuble earlier if i remember correctly.

e: my bad.


Last edited by LohiJ: 02-26-2013 at 04:03 AM.
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Old
02-26-2013, 02:54 AM
  #152
greenstickytoes
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Originally Posted by LohiJ View Post
Couturier has Talbot and Rinaldo as his linemates. Talbot and Knuble earlier if i remember correctly.
im not talking about this year im talking about last year.
Cooter was playing with Talbot and Matt read which is better than Moen
and Leblanc..
and the year before that he was playing with Darche and White..
on top of that, the team was horrid finishing last.
but again i would prefer Cooter over Eller because of age and because
of style. but to say that Cooter will be better isn't exactly sure, because this
year Eller really isnt the same as his 2 first years and it shows also since
he's playing with Galchenyuk hes been producing. Cooter is better but in the
long run idk who will be. no one knows. So yea Eller is comparable to Cooter
because of so much different reasons. but again Cooter is younger so worth more.

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Old
02-26-2013, 09:24 AM
  #153
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
You still apparently don't understand how a growth curve works, do you? Lars Eller was garbage for his first 2 years. Utterly worthless, which is why he was included in pretty much every Canadians proposal. Then he slowly but surely got better, like most young players do. And now you're acting like he's the second coming because he's made a few nice dangles and has 9 points in 16 games.

If you'd like a serious statistical comparison, then you compare the two players at similar stages in their career:

Eller's 1st full year in the NHL (Age 21): 77 games, 7 goals, 10 assists, -4
Couturier's 1st full year in the NHL (Age 19): 77 games, 13 goals, 14 assists, +18

Eller's 2nd full year in the NHL (Age 22): 79 games, 16 goals, 12 assists, 28 points
Couturier's 2nd full year in the NHL (Age 20): TBD


Based on rookie years, Couturier is pretty much double the player that Eller is. Oh, and he was 2 years younger too. Pretty embarrassing / sad for Eller.

Oh but hell who am I kidding, comparing rookie years isn't a fair comparison. We should compare one guy's 3rd year to another guy's rookie year because that just makes more sense.

Thomas Plekanec's rookie year: 67 games, 9 goals, 20 assists
Mike Knuble's stats that same year: 82 games, 34 goals, 31 assists
Therefore, Mike Knuble >>>> Thomas Plekanec

Max Pacioretty's rookie year: 34 games, 3 goals, 8 assists
Danny Briere's stats that same year: 29 games, 11 goals, 14 assists
Therefore, Danny Briere >> Thomas Plekanec

PK Subban's rookie year: 77 games, 14 goals, 24 assists
Matt Carle's stats that same year: 82 games, 1 goal, 39 assists
Matt Carle = PK Subban

This is fun. When you disregard what year a player is in, or how old they are, you can equate the value of any Canadians player with that of a 3rd rate bum.

EDIT: There's a thread in the "Polls" section made specifically for you. If you hurry on over there now, you could be the first person to vote for Eller having a better (or comparable) career to Couturier.
Lol.

I actually have to admit I absolutely forgot about that first season for Eller. Not because he was bad, but because I am getting old, I guess...what can I say, I am human and make mistakes, too... I almost always use the right statistical years for comparisons. Sigh...

However, I do now have more evidence that Eller only improves, year after year. Eller gets better even though he is still locked behind Plekanec, gets less than optimal minutes, and still has no PP time.

In any case, I stand by the fact that Eller is comparable to Couturier, and we will indeed see where they stand at the end of this season. I have watched both play, and they are very close in style and compete level. I believe that Eller needs to be given more time on the ice, both ES and PP to go along with his PK time, in order for him to truly shine.

Time will tell.

Calling Eller garbage for his first two seasons is bit extreme, though. He had poor linemates, didn't get a lot of TOI, had no PP time, and was playing on the third and fourth lines under a coach known for not giving rookies a chance to shine. He developed slowly, but at least he is developing.

Damn, I really can not believe I missed that first season in this whole thing. Honestly, my bad, sorry. Nothing else I can say...enjoy rubbing it in...


Last edited by Drydenwasthebest: 02-26-2013 at 09:30 AM.
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Old
02-26-2013, 09:39 AM
  #154
Mrb1p
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
Lol.

I actually have to admit I absolutely forgot about that first season for Eller. Not because he was bad, but because I am getting old, I guess...what can I say, I am human and make mistakes, too... I almost always use the right statistical years for comparisons. Sigh...

However, I do now have more evidence that Eller only improves, year after year. Eller gets better even though he is still locked behind Plekanec, gets less than optimal minutes, and still has no PP time.

In any case, I stand by the fact that Eller is comparable to Couturier, and we will indeed see where they stand at the end of this season. I have watched both play, and they are very close in style and compete level. I believe that Eller needs to be given more time on the ice, both ES and PP to go along with his PK time, in order for him to truly shine.

Time will tell.

Calling Eller garbage for his first two seasons is bit extreme, though. He had poor linemates, didn't get a lot of TOI, had no PP time, and was playing on the third and fourth lines under a coach known for not giving rookies a chance to shine. He developed slowly, but at least he is developing.

Damn, I really can not believe I missed that first season in this whole thing. Honestly, my bad, sorry. Nothing else I can say...enjoy rubbing it in...
Here in Montreal Plekanec is a scrub who's not even in the top 50 of Centermans, Eller is not worth a penny and he's a 4th liner, P.K. is a classless number 4 dman, Price hasnt proved nothing so he's top 20, patches is a whiner who had a fluke season... Better off in the habs board where we actually watch the games.

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Old
02-26-2013, 09:46 AM
  #155
Drydenwasthebest
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Originally Posted by Mrb1p View Post
Here in Montreal Plekanec is a scrub who's not even in the top 50 of Centermans, Eller is not worth a penny and he's a 4th liner, P.K. is a classless number 4 dman, Price hasnt proved nothing so he's top 20, patches is a whiner who had a fluke season... Better off in the habs board where we actually watch the games.
I have noticed that Habs players get under valued in the trade section of HFBoards quite consistently. It is why Eller can be called "mediocre" and "garbage" by people who only watch stat sheets and not games. I am not worried, though. I know I screwed up with the stats line (something I usually don't do...old age is causing me to squint more when reading the career stat pages these days!), though, so I have to accept my crow and enjoy. However, I still am quite confident that Eller and Couturier will have close careers over time. Especially if Eller is ever given the kind of ice and PP time that Couturier gets. Heck, I almost wish we would trade Plekanec just so we could see how well (or poorly) Eller would do in his absence.

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02-26-2013, 09:53 AM
  #156
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I understand Drydenwasthebest right now Eller and coots are comparable in term gameplay their style is similar, they both have potential to become better but coots is younger anyway like he said we will see in the futur who will become the best player but right now they look very similar.

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02-26-2013, 09:56 AM
  #157
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The only fact that coots is only 20 put him ahead of eller, but they look similar and they both can get better than what they r right now

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Old
02-26-2013, 10:49 AM
  #158
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to Flyers:
-Eller
-Diaz
-Mtl 1st round

To Canadiens:
-Couturier
-Talbot
-Zolnierczyk

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02-26-2013, 10:52 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by greenstickytoes View Post
to Flyers:
-Eller
-Diaz
-Mtl 1st round

To Canadiens:
-Couturier
-Talbot
-Zolnierczyk
That is awful. If we're trading Couturier to Montreal I'd want Subban coming back, even though we'd need to add. Subban is the only player I would want for Coots on their roster. Gally is great but he doesn't fit in our lineup.

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02-26-2013, 11:38 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by SchennSational1022 View Post
That is awful. If we're trading Couturier to Montreal I'd want Subban coming back, even though we'd need to add. Subban is the only player I would want for Coots on their roster. Gally is great but he doesn't fit in our lineup.
if we give subban away
for sure were asking for couturier and brayden schenn

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02-26-2013, 11:40 AM
  #161
CS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenstickytoes View Post
if we give subban away
for sure were asking for couturier and brayden schenn
Nashville wanted that for Weber, and the Flyers told them to shove it.

Why would you get that for Subban?

There was a long discussion on whether Philadelphia should even give up Couturier alone for Subban just a month ago.

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02-26-2013, 12:08 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Nashville wanted that for Weber, and the Flyers told them to shove it.

Why would you get that for Subban?

There was a long discussion on whether Philadelphia should even give up Couturier alone for Subban just a month ago.
We agree. Schenn and Couturier for Subban is an overpayment and would not happen.

Couturier for Subban straight up is an easy "no" for Montreal. We have no need for Couturier. We have nobody to replace Subban.

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02-26-2013, 12:15 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drydenwasthebest View Post
We agree. Schenn and Couturier for Subban is an overpayment and would not happen.

Couturier for Subban straight up is an easy "no" for Montreal. We have no need for Couturier. We have nobody to replace Subban.
Yeah if I remember correctly that was the end result of that thread.

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Old
02-26-2013, 12:29 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Nashville wanted that for Weber, and the Flyers told them to shove it.

Why would you get that for Subban?

There was a long discussion on whether Philadelphia should even give up Couturier alone for Subban just a month ago.
Weber is 27yrs old. Subban is 23...
Weber hits 7.8 mil on salary cap, Subban hits 2.8 mil.
Weber is a hell of a player but between me and you
when Subban hits 27yrs old, how good do you think he'll be. loll
So yea, why would you give Couturier for Subban, your answer is
right above.
and yea Brayden and Cooter is an overpayment. i never said it wasn't
all i said is that its going to take that kind of offer for Bergevin to get
him out of montreal. For sure Bergevin will prob add a draft pick or
a decent prospect but those 2 have to be in the trade for subban to
leave Montreal.

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Old
02-26-2013, 12:32 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenstickytoes View Post
Weber is 27yrs old. Subban is 23...
Weber hits 7.8 mil on salary cap, Subban hits 2.8 mil.
Weber is a hell of a player but between me and you
when Subban hits 27yrs old, how good do you think he'll be. loll
So yea, why would you give Couturier for Subban, your answer is
right above.
and yea Brayden and Cooter is an overpayment. i never said it wasn't
all i said is that its going to take that kind of offer for Bergevin to get
him out of montreal. For sure Bergevin will prob add a draft pick or
a decent prospect but those 2 have to be in the trade for subban to
leave Montreal.
...Well regardless of what it would take, it wouldn't be offered so why are we even arguing this? Just be happy with Subban and stop placing values on Flyers players just because you feel like declaring Subban an artificial worth. I can say Giroux would take you trading Subban + Pacioretty + Galchenyuk + 1st, but what's the point of saying that if it's just going to turn things into a pissing contest?

Also, Subban is good, but he's not Weber. And he's not going to be Weber. So let's stop this.

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02-26-2013, 12:36 PM
  #166
JDinklage Morgoone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greenstickytoes View Post
Weber is 27yrs old. Subban is 23...
Weber hits 7.8 mil on salary cap, Subban hits 2.8 mil.
Weber is a hell of a player but between me and you
when Subban hits 27yrs old, how good do you think he'll be. loll
So yea, why would you give Couturier for Subban, your answer is
right above.
and yea Brayden and Cooter is an overpayment. i never said it wasn't
all i said is that its going to take that kind of offer for Bergevin to get
him out of montreal. For sure Bergevin will prob add a draft pick or
a decent prospect but those 2 have to be in the trade for subban to
leave Montreal.
I think Weber is better at 27 than Subban will be at 27, but Subban could always prove me wrong.

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Old
02-26-2013, 12:37 PM
  #167
greenstickytoes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
There was a long discussion on whether Philadelphia should even give up Couturier alone for Subban just a month ago.
srry to break your bubble but even if cooter is 2-3 yrs younger than
subban. Subban is and always will be worth more.
defensemen take always longer to develop and can reach their peek
till the age of 30.
so 2-3yrs isnt a factor in this trade.
and anyway even if it was, a defensemen will always be more
important than a forward. especially if the forward is a third or
second liner at the moment.
compared to a defensemen who is eating 25min per match.
last year nearly 30.

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02-26-2013, 12:46 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
...Well regardless of what it would take, it wouldn't be offered so why are we even arguing this? Just be happy with Subban and stop placing values on Flyers players just because you feel like declaring Subban an artificial worth. I can say Giroux would take you trading Subban + Pacioretty + Galchenyuk + 1st, but what's the point of saying that if it's just going to turn things into a pissing contest?

Also, Subban is good, but he's not Weber. And he's not going to be Weber. So let's stop this.
What? lolll your Giroux example doesnt even make any sense with Subban and Cooter?
and No Subban will never be a Weber because first its not even the same style of
defensemen... your comparing an offensive rocket with hands and a sick wrist shot
and slap shot with a Pronger like defensemen..
its like saying Doughty will never be a Pronger...
even tho Doughty is one of the best defensemen of the league..
your comparing 2 different types of players... Both are as important for their
teams. just different styles..
anyway Giroux is good but i still wouldnt give Subban for Giroux.
not because of lack of skill but because of team needs..
we already have too much small payers.. adding giroux would be great
but we would be even smaller as a team. so Subban would help more
in our situation.

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Old
02-26-2013, 12:48 PM
  #169
Chacal667
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Originally Posted by greenstickytoes View Post
srry to break your bubble but even if cooter is 2-3 yrs younger than
subban. Subban is and always will be worth more.
defensemen take always longer to develop and can reach their peek
till the age of 30.
so 2-3yrs isnt a factor in this trade.
and anyway even if it was, a defensemen will always be more
important than a forward. especially if the forward is a third or
second liner at the moment.
compared to a defensemen who is eating 25min per match.
last year nearly 30.
I think a center worth more than a dman.

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02-26-2013, 12:50 PM
  #170
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Originally Posted by greenstickytoes View Post
What? lolll your Giroux example doesnt even make any sense with Subban and Cooter?
and No Subban will never be a Weber because first its not even the same style of
defensemen... your comparing an offensive rocket with hands and a sick wrist shot
and slap shot with a Pronger like defensemen..
its like saying Doughty will never be a Pronger...
even tho Doughty is one of the best defensemen of the league..
your comparing 2 different types of players... Both are as important for their
teams. just different styles..
anyway Giroux is good but i still wouldnt give Subban for Giroux.
not because of lack of skill but because of team needs..
we already have too much small payers.. adding giroux would be great
but we would be even smaller as a team. so Subban would help more
in our situation.
You wouldn't trade subban alone for giroux ?

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02-26-2013, 12:56 PM
  #171
greenstickytoes
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Originally Posted by Chacal667 View Post
I think a center worth more than a dman.
Elite center, MAYBE. Cooter isn't Elite quality.
hes a great 2way forward center like Jordan Staal.
but he wont be more than that imo.
Subban already proved that he can and prob
will be a #1 Defensemen in an NHL team.
He will always have more impact on a team then
cooter will.

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02-26-2013, 12:57 PM
  #172
greenstickytoes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chacal667 View Post
You wouldn't trade subban alone for giroux ?
i prob would.. but the lack of size in montreal scares me

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02-26-2013, 01:05 PM
  #173
Chacal667
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Originally Posted by greenstickytoes View Post
Elite center, MAYBE. Cooter isn't Elite quality.
hes a great 2way forward center like Jordan Staal.
but he wont be more than that imo.
Subban already proved that he can and prob
will be a #1 Defensemen in an NHL team.
He will always have more impact on a team then
cooter will.
Cooter's only 20 and subban isn't playing good hockey right now, hoppefully he didn't get a (Tyler Myers type of contract) but you know that he could not progress and stay the dman that he is right now. Only time will tell us what's gonna happen but I think you judge cooter severly.

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02-26-2013, 01:13 PM
  #174
greenstickytoes
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chacal667 View Post
Cooter's only 20 and subban isn't playing good hockey right now, hoppefully he didn't get a (Tyler Myers type of contract) but you know that he could not progress and stay the dman that he is right now. Only time will tell us what's gonna happen but I think judge cooter severly.
yea and cooter also can stop progressing and always be the
player he is right now, i can say the same for cooter lol
your point is irrelevant..
and im not judging cooter severely.. im just saying what is
and what the chances of happening by looking back at all
other similar players that have progressed just like couturier.
but again im not saying cooter isnt good man. id take him anyday
in my team. i just think subban is worth more thats all

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02-26-2013, 01:51 PM
  #175
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yea and cooter also can stop progressing and always be the
player he is right now, i can say the same for cooter lol
your point is irrelevant..
and im not judging cooter severely.. im just saying what is
and what the chances of happening by looking back at all
other similar players that have progressed just like couturier.
but again im not saying cooter isnt good man. id take him anyday
in my team. i just think subban is worth more thats all
Maybe he worth more but you can't tell that cooter have 0% chance to become an elite center just like you can't tell that subban is a futur norris dman like weber is.


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