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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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02-26-2013, 01:22 PM
  #701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Wildcard concept is awful

If a team finishes 4th and lets say 10 pts ahead of WC team they have to face in playin game then it is awful idea
I'm thinking it'll work like the NBA where those with the best record who didn't come in the top 3 for each Division qualify.

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02-26-2013, 01:23 PM
  #702
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Sorry, recap:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Icedog2735 View Post
Per the latest tweets by McKenzie it seems that for the last spots in each conference, the two "western" conferences will be grouped together and the two "eastern" conferences will be grouped together. This would avoid the issue of say Boston playing Vancouver in round one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
That's why there should be two Conferences with two Divisions each. And especially if all the ETZ teams are actually going to be in the East, then there'd be no risk of an ETZ matchup with a PTZ team in that Western Conference.

This alignment, with a Playoff crossover allowed, screams for a 4 Division, 2 Conference structure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by redwings8831 View Post
Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

According to NHL memo sent to 30 teams, no longer is the idea to go to 4 conferences, but rather 2 conferences with two divisions each.

https://twitter.com/Real_ESPNLeBrun/...58541743566848

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun

The Eastern Conference would have the Atlantic and Central divisions, the Western Conference would have the Mid-West and Pacific divisions

https://twitter.com/Real_ESPNLeBrun/...58948356153344
Recap Summation:

So, the original scheduling matrix was a win, but the Top 4 per conference caused the players to balk. So, when proposing a wild-card system, everyone realized cross-country playoff series were no fun. Now, the "conferences" are coming back for the purposes of a (quasi-)combined playoff bracket. And so now we come full circle and re-examine the scheduling matrix to see if it fits our revised playoff system.

I think the western divisions could very well go ahead with the 6-2 scheduling matrix, and allow the best #5 to replace the worst #4 if needed, ala the CFL. These divisions are still widely separated geographically and reducing cross-over series can still be a priority. Someone before mentioned taking the top teams but putting a priority on avoiding PTZ vs. CTZ series ahead of divisional pairings.

The eastern divisions, with 16 teams (hmm, why not 15 teams?), could do all sorts of things. They could go to 2, 3, or 4 divisions, because their playoffs are combined and they might as well toss the idea of having two highly segregated divisions in favor of something more spread out, mixing every one up.

I'd still throw a line to the 8-6-16 three conference proposal, where half of each conference makes the playoffs and a 16th team is put in the centrally-located Central Conference playoff.

Unless you are locking the Pacific division to 4 playoff teams, no more / no less, there is ALWAYS the risk of a playoff series crossing multiple timezones before the SC Semis. These last two proposals limit that to a maximum of 1 PTZ/CTZ series each round.

In the end, I think Bettman would be in favor of only two conferences for marketing purposes. The 4 conference scheduling matrix was great for the regular season, but a strictly divisional playoff will not fly. Myself, I think risking a single PTZ/CTZ series rather than a single PTZ/ETZ series is a rather minor victory and the league should continue forward with the "Top 3 + 4 wild-card" proposal and keep a winning scheduling matrix.


Last edited by Crayton: 02-26-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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02-26-2013, 01:23 PM
  #703
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The Mid-West division is a joke! Chicago and Minnesota (and maybe Winnipeg) can continuously spend to the cap, the rest cannot. That division looks almost as lopsided as the A.L East in the MLB.

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02-26-2013, 01:25 PM
  #704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesHabitants514 View Post
The Mid-West division is a joke! Chicago and Minnesota (and maybe Winnipeg) can continuously spend to the cap, the rest cannot. That division looks almost as lopsided as the A.L East in the MLB.
There's always going to be teams that don't spend as much as others but that's the team fault. They're not restricted to spending as little as they are, they decide not to pay more.

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02-26-2013, 01:25 PM
  #705
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It will be an interesting adjustment as we will now see 4 division champs as opposed to 6 now-thus ending minimizing the much debated problems with the "easy" South East qualification (and I use debated and "easy" in that context as has been argued, not that it's my personal opinion )

So essentially, I'm understanding it: for each "Conference", top 3 from each division qualify, after top 3, the remaining 13 in East fight for wild cards, and 11 in west fight for two spots, with the 4 and 5th highest for each conference going to playoffs-so ergo you could conceivably have 5 teams from Atlantic in East and 5 Teams from Pacific in west-leaving only "3" reps in the NE and Central divisions.

Combine with draft going forward, it will break down this way: You're either in the top 3 of your conference or fighting for a wild card, and if you don't make wild card you're in the lottery for 1st overall (weighting in future to be determined).

So the NHL can say that more fans will get into it because the "wild card fights" could be intense, and can with straight face say "Its a win-win for your team: you're either in the playoffs, or you're guaranteed a shot at 1st overall in the draft".


Last edited by Tinalera: 02-26-2013 at 01:38 PM.
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02-26-2013, 01:26 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by canuckster19 View Post
The only thing I could see to make this reasonably fair would be to give the first seed of the division that gets the crossover team a choice between playing their third seed or the wild card team, although that isn't exactly fair to the 3rd seed either.
Exactly, it proves how badly thought out this Wildcard system is.

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02-26-2013, 01:30 PM
  #707
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
A 1/4 chance, no Crayton??
Eh, well, the 1/3 figure I gave was a simplification of 5/18 which assumes each Wild Card has an equal chance of coming from any of the 4 conferences and no conference can have more than 5 playoff teams. So, it is designed to be a HIGH-end estimate with lots of rounding.

Hmm, I think I also assumed (accidentally) that there wouldn't be exactly 4 teams from each conference... okay, a little less than 1/4. I don't really have the time/desire to do a more accurate count. Because it is more likely that the final wild-card team comes from a division that hasn't sent one yet, the figure is likely closer to 1/5. The fact that the Pacific division is 7 teams while the eastern ones are 8... yeah, don't know how exactly that affects the figure.

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02-26-2013, 01:31 PM
  #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lesHabitants514 View Post
The Mid-West division is a joke! Chicago and Minnesota (and maybe Winnipeg) can continuously spend to the cap, the rest cannot. That division looks almost as lopsided as the A.L East in the MLB.
Flashback 10-15 years ago and you could say the same about Colorado, Dallas, and St. Louis being cap budget teams with Chicago, Minnesota, and Winnipeg being the penny pinchers. One has to recognize that things have the potential to change when one plans something that theoretically will be implemented over a long time period.

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02-26-2013, 01:31 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Can't wait for Calgary, Edmonton, and Phoenix to come to MSG next year. Anyone want my tickets for those games?
This is another difference between fans of teams in the East and West.

A lot of fans in the East don't want to see anyone but teams in the East. If you limit it to the teams in the northeast corridor, all the better.

In the West, a lot of fans want to see Crosby come to town. They want to see the Ranger, or Bruin, or Canadien, or Leaf, or Flyer logo in their own building. It makes it seem like they're part of the NHL, because those players, and those franchises, are the NHL. They have all the history. They have all the prime time games. They have all the hype.

I get why you would say you have no desire to see Calgary, Edmonton, Phoenix, etc, go into NY to play the Rangers. I'm not saying it's wrong to say that either. It's just a clear difference in interests.

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02-26-2013, 01:31 PM
  #710
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With the Wild Cards, are they going to do it so it's 2 from each conference? Or the top 4 regardless.

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02-26-2013, 01:34 PM
  #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crayton View Post
Eh, well, the 1/3 figure I gave was a simplification of 5/18 which assumes each Wild Card has an equal chance of coming from any of the 4 conferences and no conference can have more than 5 playoff teams. So, it is designed to be a HIGH-end estimate with lots of rounding.

Hmm, I think I also assumed (accidentally) that there wouldn't be exactly 4 teams from each conference... okay, a little less than 1/4. I don't really have the time/desire to do a more accurate count. Because it is more likely that the final wild-card team comes from a division that hasn't sent one yet, the figure is likely closer to 1/5. The fact that the Pacific division is 7 teams while the eastern ones are 8... yeah, don't know how exactly that affects the figure.
Yes, I think that's even more accurate, it's closer to only a 1/5 chance of being part of a crossover matchup.

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02-26-2013, 01:34 PM
  #712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
With the Wild Cards, are they going to do it so it's 2 from each conference? Or the top 4 regardless.
Both ideas are being thrown about.

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02-26-2013, 01:39 PM
  #713
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Just re-read Lebrun's article and came across this:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/89...ue-4-divisions

Quote:
The new plan calls for divisional playoffs, not conference playoffs as the NHL currently has. The division winner with the most regular-season points will play the lowest-seeded wild-card team in the first round, with the other division winner playing the other wild-card team.
So let me see if I am understanding this right. Let's say next year, it works out so 4 teams from the Atlantic and 4 teams from the Central make it in. Now, let's say the Flyers win the Atlantic with 110 points, and the Senators win the Central with 105. For the two bottom seeds, the "wild-cards" you have the Isles with 92 points and the Leafs with 88 points. According to what Lebrun is saying, the Flyers, having the better record of the division champs would play the Leafs, the lower seeded wild-card and the Isles would play the Senators in the first round?

This is the stupidest thing in the World. I HOPE this ONLY applies when 5 teams from one division make it in and 3 teams from the other get in. If it is 4 and 4, I hope it is strictly 1 v 4, 2 v 3. Please tell me I am reading this wrong, or please tell me Lebrun left out this detail.

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02-26-2013, 01:42 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by Crayton View Post
I'd still throw a line to the 8-6-16 three conference proposal, where half of each conference makes the playoffs and a 16th team is put in the centrally-located Central Conference playoff.

1 Montreal vs. 8 Carolina
2 Pittsburgh vs. 7 Detroit
3 Ottawa vs. 6 Toronto
4 Boston vs. 5 New Jersey

1 Anaheim vs. 4 San Jose
2 Vancouver vs. 3 Los Angeles

1 Chicago vs. 4 Tampa Bay (wild-card)
2 Nashville vs. 3 St. Louis

Hmm, if an expanded playoff is really an idea, I suppose this single wild-card spot could be played for, between #16 and #17: Tampa Bay vs. Philadelphia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
This is the stupidest thing in the World. I HOPE this ONLY applies when 5 teams from one division make it in and 3 teams from the other get in. If it is 4 and 4, I hope it is strictly 1 v 4, 2 v 3. Please tell me I am reading this wrong, or please tell me Lebrun left out this detail.
I sure hope he left something out. That is crazy.

EDIT: see Tinalera below; yes, it does look like wild cards will stay within their conference, so this is just like the CFL system. (x2, because there are two conferences)

EDIT2: oops, yeah that doesn't answer if it stays divisional ALWAYS when it is 4 teams per division. I hope so. Why not.


Last edited by Crayton: 02-26-2013 at 01:48 PM.
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02-26-2013, 01:43 PM
  #715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Just re-read Lebrun's article and came across this:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/89...ue-4-divisions



So let me see if I am understanding this right. Let's say next year, it works out so 4 teams from the Atlantic and 4 teams from the Central make it in. Now, let's say the Flyers win the Atlantic with 110 points, and the Senators win the Central with 105. For the two bottom seeds, the "wild-cards" you have the Isles with 92 points and the Leafs with 88 points. According to what Lebrun is saying, the Flyers, having the better record of the division champs would play the Leafs, the lower seeded wild-card and the Isles would play the Senators in the first round?

This is the stupidest thing in the World. I HOPE this ONLY applies when 5 teams from one division make it in and 3 teams from the other get in. If it is 4 and 4, I hope it is strictly 1 v 4, 2 v 3. Please tell me I am reading this wrong, or please tell me Lebrun left out this detail.
The way I've been reading it is that top 3 teams from each are locked in from each division. Then the remaining pools in East and West respectively fight it out for the final 2 wildcard spots in each conference. So if you aren't top three in your division, you're fighting it out not just with the rest of your division, but the rest of your conference to get the 4th and 5th highest point totals.

but the "5 team" rule, the "5th place" team would probably cross over to the other "division" kind of like how CFL does it-at least that's how I read it.

But yea it's totally confusing!

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02-26-2013, 01:44 PM
  #716
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if they are doing wild cards, have the top 3 in each division get a spot and the 4/5 teams in each division have a play in game.

The ONLY caveat is that the 4/5 teams HAVE to be within 10 points of each other.

If the gap between the 4th place team and 5th place team is greater than 10 points, the 4th place team gets the automatic bid.

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02-26-2013, 01:45 PM
  #717
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Just re-read Lebrun's article and came across this:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/89...ue-4-divisions



So let me see if I am understanding this right. Let's say next year, it works out so 4 teams from the Atlantic and 4 teams from the Central make it in. Now, let's say the Flyers win the Atlantic with 110 points, and the Senators win the Central with 105. For the two bottom seeds, the "wild-cards" you have the Isles with 92 points and the Leafs with 88 points. According to what Lebrun is saying, the Flyers, having the better record of the division champs would play the Leafs, the lower seeded wild-card and the Isles would play the Senators in the first round?

This is the stupidest thing in the World. I HOPE this ONLY applies when 5 teams from one division make it in and 3 teams from the other get in. If it is 4 and 4, I hope it is strictly 1 v 4, 2 v 3. Please tell me I am reading this wrong, or please tell me Lebrun left out this detail.
Thank you for pointing this out - this is exactly what I took from it as well, and cannot comprehend the 'divisional playoffs that aren't actually only intra-divisional'.

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02-26-2013, 01:49 PM
  #718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crayton View Post
1 Montreal vs. 8 Carolina
2 Pittsburgh vs. 7 Detroit
3 Ottawa vs. 6 Toronto
4 Boston vs. 5 New Jersey

1 Anaheim vs. 4 San Jose
2 Vancouver vs. 3 Los Angeles

1 Chicago vs. 4 Tampa Bay (wild-card)
2 Nashville vs. 3 St. Louis

Hmm, if an expanded playoff is really an idea, I suppose this single wild-card spot could be played for, between #16 and #17: Tampa Bay vs. Philadelphia.


I sure hope he left something out. That is crazy.

EDIT: see Tinalera below; yes, it does look like wild cards will stay within their conference, so this is just like the CFL system. (x2, because there are two conferences)
Yea, thanks for confirming that

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02-26-2013, 01:50 PM
  #719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crayton View Post
1 Montreal vs. 8 Carolina
2 Pittsburgh vs. 7 Detroit
3 Ottawa vs. 6 Toronto
4 Boston vs. 5 New Jersey

1 Anaheim vs. 4 San Jose
2 Vancouver vs. 3 Los Angeles

1 Chicago vs. 4 Tampa Bay (wild-card)
2 Nashville vs. 3 St. Louis

Hmm, if an expanded playoff is really an idea, I suppose this single wild-card spot could be played for, between #16 and #17: Tampa Bay vs. Philadelphia.


I sure hope he left something out. That is crazy.
Should the Coyotes be moved to the ETZ a six team Central Conference is worth considering. Though you could keep the four conferences - they would be split 7-6-8-9, allowing Columbus to switch places with the Floiridian teams.

The rationale for having a six team Central Conference is that pretty much ensures the Central Conference will always be involved in crossovers, thus greatly reducing the frequency of ETZ vs PTZ crossovers.

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02-26-2013, 01:50 PM
  #720
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What a weird, overly complicated system.

It seems like in their attempt to make everyone happy the NHL crated a weird nonsensical monster.

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02-26-2013, 01:50 PM
  #721
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Just re-read Lebrun's article and came across this:

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/id/89...ue-4-divisions



So let me see if I am understanding this right. Let's say next year, it works out so 4 teams from the Atlantic and 4 teams from the Central make it in. Now, let's say the Flyers win the Atlantic with 110 points, and the Senators win the Central with 105. For the two bottom seeds, the "wild-cards" you have the Isles with 92 points and the Leafs with 88 points. According to what Lebrun is saying, the Flyers, having the better record of the division champs would play the Leafs, the lower seeded wild-card and the Isles would play the Senators in the first round?

This is the stupidest thing in the World. I HOPE this ONLY applies when 5 teams from one division make it in and 3 teams from the other get in. If it is 4 and 4, I hope it is strictly 1 v 4, 2 v 3. Please tell me I am reading this wrong, or please tell me Lebrun left out this detail.
It would be weird to do that, but where that scenario really wouldn't make sense is in the West.

If it's supposed to be divisional, and it's 4 and 4 in any given year, I would think it'll stay in-division. However, there are a lot of different interests in this realignment, so some crazy stuff could happen.

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02-26-2013, 01:50 PM
  #722
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Originally Posted by IceAce View Post
Here's a thought, and this may have been mentioned before so excuse me if it has, but why not take the proposed realignment and just swap the two Florida teams with Carolina and Columbus?

The 2 Florida markets would be happy because they now have 3 NY area teams, and Philly who make up a good deal of their transplants, so they should see increased revenue for all home division games. Not to mention they don't have to "fly over another division" to play their road divisional games. Florida teams are typically in Divisions with teams in the NE corridor in all other major sports.

Carolina goes back to their ancestral home, so to speak, in what's basically the old Adams Division, and while Columbus doesn't get Pitt, they do get geographically close rivals in Buffalo and they keep Detroit in their division and then add the 3 Canadian clubs.
The difference between Toronto/Montreal and the NY-area teams are that the latter fanbases are very balkanized. Non-Rangers games may not sell out and I would think the money earned from 2 extra Devils/Islanders games a year is far less than that from 2 extra Leafs/Habs games.

As for Carolina, their real rivals are in the Northeast. Ask a Canes fan about the Sabres or Bruins and you'll get an earful and a half and do the reverse and you'll get the same. Sabres fans still haven't gotten over 2006 and that lends itself to great hockey plus, as with Florida, you won't get that many Islanders/Devils transplants. When more bad blood came out of one playoff series with the Sabres than four with the Devils, that says a lot.

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02-26-2013, 01:52 PM
  #723
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The other thing that bugs me is Tampa, Miami, Boston, Montreal, etc. being in the "Central" division. But Pittsburgh & Raleigh are in the "Atlantic" division...

They need to man up and separate Pitt and Philly.

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02-26-2013, 01:53 PM
  #724
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Originally Posted by Fleury4ever View Post
The other thing that bugs me is Tampa, Miami, Boston, Montreal, etc. being in the "Central" division. But Pittsburgh & Raleigh are in the "Atlantic" division...
You mean, Columbus and Pittsburgh?

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02-26-2013, 01:53 PM
  #725
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Originally Posted by Fleury4ever View Post
Thank you for pointing this out - this is exactly what I took from it as well, and cannot comprehend the 'divisional playoffs that aren't actually only intra-divisional'.
My hope would be that first place would guarantee a playoff round against a conference opponent.

In other words, if five teams qualify from conference "A" and three from conference "B", the teams pair as follows:

1st "A" vs 5th "A"
2nd "A" vs 4th "A"

1st "B" vs 3rd "B"

2nd "B" vs 3rd "A" - home ice advantage to the team with the best record.

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