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Team Toughness or lack thereof

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Old
02-25-2013, 12:36 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Using hits as the measure of toughness is inappropriate. Taking hits to make plays is IMO a greater indication of toughness.

For example, Carlyle's offensive system relies heavily on set plays and the dump and chase to enter the O-zone.

The concept is simple, use team speed and positioning to allow for uncontested hits on the D. The fundamental purpose is to wear down the opposition's D and over 60 minutes the expectant result is more and more offensive zone time.

This isn't a display of toughness, hitting retreating D is easy prey for the most part. What it is meant to do is breakdown the opposing players focus (intimidate) resulting in turnovers and gain puck possession.

IMO the Sens showed greater toughness in taking the hits while focusing on puck retrieval and movement, which they did with great regularity on Saturday night.

PS taking any statistic out of the context of the game is pointless.
That is incorrect. Your definition much better suits "grit" than it does "toughness". By your definition players like Alfredsson, Silfverberg, Turris and Condra would be considered "tough". Those players are gritty skilled/finesse players but you would be hard pressed to find any respectable GM, coach, scout or executive that would say that any of those players increase the overall toughness of the team.

"Toughness" basically comes down to being difficult to play against in terms of the physical aspects of the game. A "tough player" is someone who the opposition's players are scared to battle with around the net, along the boards or in the corners. A "tough player" is someone who the opposition's players pay attention to when on the ice and keep their heads up so that they don't get run over. Being "tough" has to do with taking away time and space and the ability to take players off their game by hitting, agitating or simply being intimidating to battle against.

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02-25-2013, 09:30 PM
  #202
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I agree the team needs more skill, but I wouldn't be looking to these two guys as the answer. Each guy had a promising season a couple years ago, but since then they have shown nothing remotely close that.

Sure, people can argue that they haven't been able to showcase their skill because of injuries, but I would argue it's because of those injuries that has lead them to play a far too tentative game now.

I doubt either player sees regular time with any team next season.
I'll admit Regin had a pretty strong game. I hope he can keep it up.

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02-25-2013, 09:33 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Larionov View Post
Fun fact - Chicago is dead last in hits in the NHL.
and it's probably because they have most of the puck possession throughout the game is my assumption.

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02-25-2013, 09:35 PM
  #204
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Having a team that doesn't quit & doesn't back down against anyone or any team. It doesn't mean always dropping the gloves but it also means not backing down. This team is very difficult to play against & IMO that is another variable to being a tough team. They don't give an inch & fight for every loose puck. really like watching our team these days & really like what Dzuirzynski brings to the team exactly the definition of toughness. Hard to play against, hits hard, never backs down & fights for every inch & every loose puck.

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02-26-2013, 09:16 AM
  #205
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I'll be the first to admit, I thought we were doomed, but this Team never fails to amaze me!

GO GO

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02-26-2013, 09:20 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
and it's probably because they have most of the puck possession throughout the game is my assumption.
with 3 if the top 4 players league wide in takeaways, why bother making the hit when you can just walk away with the puck.

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02-26-2013, 09:48 AM
  #207
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I have to say I miss seeing a good fight

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02-26-2013, 10:37 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
with 3 if the top 4 players league wide in takeaways, why bother making the hit when you can just walk away with the puck.
That's true too. I need to start watching more Hawks games this season.

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02-26-2013, 10:40 AM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Micklebot View Post
with 3 if the top 4 players league wide in takeaways, why bother making the hit when you can just walk away with the puck.
Doesn't that make them horrible defensively though?

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02-26-2013, 01:57 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by PeterSidorkiewicz View Post
and it's probably because they have most of the puck possession throughout the game is my assumption.
Give the man a prize! When you have the puck, you aren't laying many hits...

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02-26-2013, 02:25 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
That is incorrect. Your definition much better suits "grit" than it does "toughness". By your definition players like Alfredsson, Silfverberg, Turris and Condra would be considered "tough". Those players are gritty skilled/finesse players but you would be hard pressed to find any respectable GM, coach, scout or executive that would say that any of those players increase the overall toughness of the team.

"Toughness" basically comes down to being difficult to play against in terms of the physical aspects of the game. A "tough player" is someone who the opposition's players are scared to battle with around the net, along the boards or in the corners. A "tough player" is someone who the opposition's players pay attention to when on the ice and keep their heads up so that they don't get run over. Being "tough" has to do with taking away time and space and the ability to take players off their game by hitting, agitating or simply being intimidating to battle against.
Based on this definition there are very few tough players in the NHL.

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02-26-2013, 05:42 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Holdurbreathe View Post
Based on this definition there are very few tough players in the NHL.
There aren't really that many. Only of handful of tough players get a crack at the NHL, let alone become NHL regulars. I think Bryan Murray said that tough players that can actually play and contribute in other facets of the game are some of the hardest players to come by.

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02-28-2013, 07:30 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
There aren't really that many. Only of handful of tough players get a crack at the NHL, let alone become NHL regulars. I think Bryan Murray said that tough players that can actually play and contribute in other facets of the game are some of the hardest players to come by.
I agree with this. I take toughness in hockey to mean the same as it is in the street. We have all known tough guys - guys that can handle themselves and have done so enough times that people know not to screw with them. Guys that are so tough they keep other people on their toes, etc...

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02-28-2013, 08:12 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Patizzie View Post
I have to say I miss seeing a good fight
This.

It sucks that Prust didnt want to go when Neil wanted to fight against the Habs.

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02-28-2013, 08:14 AM
  #215
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I miss the good fights.

I do not miss the "Hey, wanna go? okay good luck" fights.

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02-28-2013, 10:01 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Qward View Post
I miss the good fights.

I do not miss the "Hey, wanna go? okay good luck" fights.
So true - fights that come from the energy and battling within a game - not a separate show.

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Old
02-28-2013, 12:55 PM
  #217
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Konopka's first shift of the game - less than five minutes in - NOW IS THE TIME!

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02-28-2013, 09:29 PM
  #218
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I think the Bruins game was a bit of an indication that there is still a need to improve the Senators toughness. We seemed a bit timid out there; we were too concerned with taking a hit and turned over the puck a lot when pressured. We also seemed a bit hesitant to get into puck battles for loose pucks. The Bruins really took away our time and space and we didn't respond all that well. We also gave the Bruins way too much space and that led to a fair amount of scoring chances.

Now with that said, it is still obvious that the priority is fixing the skill level in Ottawa. Even though there is a bit of a need to fix the toughness level, it is not nearly as glaring a need as our lack of offensive skill.

With that said we need a tough player that can actually take a regular shift and play in the playoffs. There really isn't a need for pure enforcer/ goon that can only fight and has basically no skill.

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03-01-2013, 01:46 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Bruiser View Post
I think the Bruins game was a bit of an indication that there is still a need to improve the Senators toughness. We seemed a bit timid out there; we were too concerned with taking a hit and turned over the puck a lot when pressured. We also seemed a bit hesitant to get into puck battles for loose pucks. The Bruins really took away our time and space and we didn't respond all that well. We also gave the Bruins way too much space and that led to a fair amount of scoring chances.

Now with that said, it is still obvious that the priority is fixing the skill level in Ottawa. Even though there is a bit of a need to fix the toughness level, it is not nearly as glaring a need as our lack of offensive skill.

With that said we need a tough player that can actually take a regular shift and play in the playoffs. There really isn't a need for pure enforcer/ goon that can only fight and has basically no skill.
LOOOOOOOOOL, I'm pretty confident that if Karlsson was on the ice controlling the game for 25-30 minutes while Boston kept missing him and Spezza dangling while Gryba/Methot handle the physical play, this post wouldn't be existent.

We have very tough players, we just don't have skill players. They don't look timid, they looked a bit lost in situations due to limited IQ/vision/skills, there's a difference.

I think the overall toughness of the team is very, very underrated even down to Benoit who handled the fore-check marvelously tonight. All we need is one more star forward and I do agree that the more physical type the better and that's why I'm huge advocate for Perry/Ryan type player.

Although I highly doubt one of them will alter the entire dimension of this team's perceived "physical ability." I think it's just fine and tonight we proved we can more than handle it.

Especially when guys like Zibanejad and Silfverberg gain more experience and muscle mass.

The only time physicality and toughness becomes a factor is when we don't have a system to properly play in and everyone goes around searching for heads like Lucic did in last 5 minutes... How did that work out for him?

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03-01-2013, 09:15 AM
  #220
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Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
LOOOOOOOOOL, I'm pretty confident that if Karlsson was on the ice controlling the game for 25-30 minutes while Boston kept missing him and Spezza dangling while Gryba/Methot handle the physical play, this post wouldn't be existent.

We have very tough players, we just don't have skill players. They don't look timid, they looked a bit lost in situations due to limited IQ/vision/skills, there's a difference.

I think the overall toughness of the team is very, very underrated even down to Benoit who handled the fore-check marvelously tonight. All we need is one more star forward and I do agree that the more physical type the better and that's why I'm huge advocate for Perry/Ryan type player.

Although I highly doubt one of them will alter the entire dimension of this team's perceived "physical ability." I think it's just fine and tonight we proved we can more than handle it.

Especially when guys like Zibanejad and Silfverberg gain more experience and muscle mass.

The only time physicality and toughness becomes a factor is when we don't have a system to properly play in and everyone goes around searching for heads like Lucic did in last 5 minutes... How did that work out for him?
totally agreed. you can make the case that we have too many "tough/grinder" type of players. that is why we can't score. just not enough creativity and finishing on the ice.

dd's days are numbered on this team. if michalek and stone come in, he's one of the first people to go. same with daug.

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03-01-2013, 10:09 AM
  #221
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I don't think toughness was an issue last night at all, as to me it was almost a carbon copy of the game against the Habs.

The Bruins were faster and more skilled plus they were bigger and more aggressive. That said, the Senators looked much better overall last night than they did against the Habs but they also showed the glaring lack of skill.

There were far too many give-away's that weren't due to anything other than bad decision making or poor passes. Sure if you are getting pressured a lot you might rush a play when you don't have to and that certainly happened but I don't care how much pressure you have as a pro you don't just throw the puck into the slot in your OWN end...that happened 3 or 4 times last night...same thing with simple, 10 foot passes through the neutral zone or when we were on the PP...easy, basic hockey plays were behind players or in their skates, etc...it was ugly.

Still, to be on point, those plays had nothing to do with not being tough enough and everything to do with not being skilled or quick enough IMO.

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03-01-2013, 01:19 PM
  #222
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The Smith and JOB lines created the most out there last night.
It looked like Julien tried to get Lucic and his gang out against the Turris line all night and it seemed that they were manhandled and hemmed in our zone for the majority of their shift. Just sayin'.

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03-01-2013, 01:23 PM
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patizzie View Post
I have to say I miss seeing a good fight
Hard to fight when your players that can fight (Methot, Smith, Neil) are all very important players on roster missing 2 top 4 defenseman and 2 top line forwards.

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03-01-2013, 09:15 PM
  #224
Rocket Richard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginKarlssonLehner View Post
I'm pretty confident that if Karlsson was on the ice controlling the game for 25-30 minutes while Boston kept missing him and Spezza dangling while Gryba/Methot handle the physical play, this post wouldn't be existent.
I agree to some extent, except for maybe in the Playoffs when the Rangers where using Karlsson as a punching bag, until Carkner stepped in!

We will need more toughness in the Playoffs! Who will handle guys like Lucic in the Playoffs?

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03-01-2013, 11:04 PM
  #225
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I agree to some extent, except for maybe in the Playoffs when the Rangers where using Karlsson as a punching bag, until Carkner stepped in!

We will need more toughness in the Playoffs! Who will handle guys like Lucic in the Playoffs?
not many people can. looks like we got under his skin just fine.

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