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Leafs 10th in TSN Power Rankings

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Old
02-26-2013, 02:44 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
They are by no means an old team, but they have 2 players under 25 on the team.

Kadri and Van Riemsdyk are the only 2 players under 25 on the team.

This is not a bad thing, as the results show.
25 and under includes 25? But yeah, I'm getting tired of how we're a young team. Most of the players on the team are close to entering their prime. Most of them are 26-27.

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02-26-2013, 02:45 PM
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25 and under includes 25? But yeah, I'm getting tired of how we're a young team. Most of the players on the team are close to entering their prime. Most of them are 26-27.
I did say under 25, and under 25 is under 25 while 25 is equal to 25.

Most are entering or in their primes. Prime does not start at 28, especially in today's NHL.

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02-26-2013, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by ITM View Post
Cup Finalists will have:

a) Made the playoffs.

b) Won a Conference Quarter-Finals Round

c) Won a Conference Semi-Finals Round

d) Won a Conference Finals Round.

Ignore clubs like Pittsburgh, Carolina, Boston, and a depleted Senators team still winning. Ignore underachieving clubs like Philadelphia, Tampa Bay and Washington.

Toronto has yet to fulfill a nevermind b through d. When a is achieved b is possible and so on.

I love the roster, I'll love it more when it's appropriately enhanced, but we're dealing with a delicate hypothetical...And where impression is concerned, we as "Leafs Nation" need to lay off the rhetoric and strap ourselves to that HNIC cliche: "We're taking it one game at a time."

I'm sure this place will explode if we get to a, but for now, we need to be like a bunch of little Fonzies...

This --wholeheartedly agree.

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02-26-2013, 02:49 PM
  #54
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What might be most impressive about these rankings is we have moved into the top 10 rankings without our starting goaltender, first line left winger, and a player who was 2nd on the team in goals when he got hurt.

Only teams above us in those rankings who are hurting nearly as bad as us is Pittsburgh with the news of Malkin's concussion, and even then they have that guy named Crosby to bail them out.

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02-26-2013, 02:54 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Ten View Post
What might be most impressive about these rankings is we have moved into the top 10 rankings without our starting goaltender, first line left winger, and a player who was 2nd on the team in goals when he got hurt.

Only teams above us in those rankings who are hurting nearly as bad as us is Pittsburgh with the news of Malkin's concussion, and even then they have that guy named Crosby to bail them out.
Ottawa?

Spezza, Karlsson and Michalek?

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02-26-2013, 02:55 PM
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I still have yet to see anyone write a good argument why this current Leafs' team is not going to the Cup Finals. This is not the same roster as before. This is a new line-up of more skill and a lot more toughness.
I'll bite....

You generally see call ups from the AHL playing well their first 10 or even 20 games but then the wheels fall off when the daily grind of the NHL gets to them. Maybe they train extra hard in the off season and come back stronger, but most of the time this is when AHL players are separated from NHL players. Separate the boys from the men, if you will.

Leafs entire defense is made up AHL defensemen. Frazer, Kostka, Holzer are not going to be the players they are now, in the playoffs. They will most likely have poor showings. Guys like Gunnarsson, Phaneuf, Liles and even Komisarek if he's still on the team will be the defensemen who get ice time in the playoffs. Phaneuf and Komisarek are tough, but not enough to intimidate another team.

Orr, McClaren and Brown will all be healthy scratches in the playoffs. Guys like that don't play in the playoffs. Without them or Fraser... how tough are the Leafs?

Lupul Bozak Kessel
JVR Grabo Kulemin
MacArthur Kadri Frattin
Komarov McClement Steckel

Phaneuf Gunnarsson
Liles Franson
Komisarek Gardiner

Does that team look tough to you? The strength in the leafs is having Brown, McClaren and Orr in the line up so that the top 6 can play a couple inches taller. Kulemin is a big boy but he's not going to strike fear into the opponents. Same with Lupul, JVR and Frattin. They can handle their own on the cycle and won't get tossed around, but they aren't going to toss other people around either. Bozak, Kessel, Kadri, MacArthur are all soft-ish players. The fourth line will be mainly penalty killers and an energy line that will only be used sparingly.

When you talk about team toughness, it's not having 3 heavyweight fighters in the line up. It's having toughness and grit in your top 6 forwards and top 4 defensemen, something the Leafs have a fair amount of (Phaneuf, JVR, Kulemin) but it's certainly not their strength.

If Leafs end up playing against Montreal... then they'll be the tougher team in the playoffs. Any other team and Leafs team toughness will be equal or less.

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02-26-2013, 02:56 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by ITM View Post
Cup Finalists will have:

a) Made the playoffs.

b) Won a Conference Quarter-Finals Round

c) Won a Conference Semi-Finals Round

d) Won a Conference Finals Round.

Ignore clubs like Pittsburgh, Carolina, Boston, and a depleted Senators team still winning. Ignore underachieving clubs like Philadelphia, Tampa Bay and Washington.

Toronto has yet to fulfill a nevermind b through d. When a is achieved b is possible and so on.

I love the roster, I'll love it more when it's appropriately enhanced, but we're dealing with a delicate hypothetical...And where impression is concerned, we as "Leafs Nation" need to lay off the rhetoric and strap ourselves to that HNIC cliche: "We're taking it one game at a time."

I'm sure this place will explode if we get to a, but for now, we need to be like a bunch of little Fonzies...
What's Fonzie like?!


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02-26-2013, 02:57 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Deebo View Post
Ottawa?

Spezza, Karlsson and Michalek?
Like I said, the teams ranked above us in those rankings aren't dealing with the injuries we are.

Ottawa is ranked 11th.

While we're at it though, Carolina and LA are struggling through similar injury trouble within TSN's top 15.

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02-26-2013, 03:01 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Ten View Post
Like I said, the teams ranked above us in those rankings aren't dealing with the injuries we are.

Ottawa is ranked 11th.

While we're at it though, Carolina and LA are struggling through similar injury trouble within TSN's top 15.
oops, I thought you meant in the standings, not the rankings.

My mistake.

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02-26-2013, 03:18 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
I'll bite....

You generally see call ups from the AHL playing well their first 10 or even 20 games but then the wheels fall off when the daily grind of the NHL gets to them. Maybe they train extra hard in the off season and come back stronger, but most of the time this is when AHL players are separated from NHL players. Separate the boys from the men, if you will.

Leafs entire defense is made up AHL defensemen. Frazer, Kostka, Holzer are not going to be the players they are now, in the playoffs. They will most likely have poor showings. Guys like Gunnarsson, Phaneuf, Liles and even Komisarek if he's still on the team will be the defensemen who get ice time in the playoffs. Phaneuf and Komisarek are tough, but not enough to intimidate another team.

Orr, McClaren and Brown will all be healthy scratches in the playoffs. Guys like that don't play in the playoffs. Without them or Fraser... how tough are the Leafs?

Lupul Bozak Kessel
JVR Grabo Kulemin
MacArthur Kadri Frattin
Komarov McClement Steckel

Phaneuf Gunnarsson
Liles Franson
Komisarek Gardiner

Does that team look tough to you? The strength in the leafs is having Brown, McClaren and Orr in the line up so that the top 6 can play a couple inches taller. Kulemin is a big boy but he's not going to strike fear into the opponents. Same with Lupul, JVR and Frattin. They can handle their own on the cycle and won't get tossed around, but they aren't going to toss other people around either. Bozak, Kessel, Kadri, MacArthur are all soft-ish players. The fourth line will be mainly penalty killers and an energy line that will only be used sparingly.

When you talk about team toughness, it's not having 3 heavyweight fighters in the line up. It's having toughness and grit in your top 6 forwards and top 4 defensemen, something the Leafs have a fair amount of (Phaneuf, JVR, Kulemin) but it's certainly not their strength.

If Leafs end up playing against Montreal... then they'll be the tougher team in the playoffs. Any other team and Leafs team toughness will be equal or less.
At least 1 of them will be in each game, I could see 2, but in very limited minutes for the 2nd guy.

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02-26-2013, 03:20 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I did say under 25, and under 25 is under 25 while 25 is equal to 25.

Most are entering or in their primes. Prime does not start at 28, especially in today's NHL.
I think the notion that the Leaf's are not a young team is still misleading though.

By your definition:

In 3 years time, Kadri (25), Gardiner (25), JVR (26), and Reimer (27) will not yet be in their primes. Kessel (28), Frattin (28), Franson (28), Bozak (29), Gunnarson (29), Komarov (29), Phaneuf (30), MacArthur (30), Grabovski (32), and Lupul (32) will be in their primes.

To add some perspective, 3 years ago our #1 D pairing was Tomas Kaberle and Francois Beauchemin. Our top forwards were Phil Kessel, Matt Stajan, and Alexei Ponikarovsky. Our goaltenders were Toskala and Gustavsson (in his first season).

3 years suddenly seems like a long time, doesn't it?

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02-26-2013, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Leo Trollmarov View Post
At least 1 of them will be in each game, I could see 2, but in very limited minutes for the 2nd guy.
Seeing how they average 5 or so minutes a game now during the regular season, when the stakes are higher what do you figure they'll average? If they're in the line up, they're a non factor. No one will fight a goon in the playoffs and two fiddy of ice time isn't a factor in evaluating the team's toughness in playoffs.

My point stands IMO.

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02-26-2013, 03:26 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
Seeing how they average 5 or so minutes a game now during the regular season, when the stakes are higher what do you figure they'll average? If they're in the line up, they're a non factor. No one will fight a goon in the playoffs and two fiddy of ice time isn't a factor in evaluating the team's toughness in playoffs.

My point stands IMO.
I think McLaren is better than he gets credit for defensively. I think he will see 4-5 a game, with Orr seeing 2-4. Might not be a huge factor, but having them in the game when things get rough will be a huge advantage for the Leafs. We are where we are in large part to our toughness and great defensive play, I don't see a reason to change the formula, just strengthen it where needed.

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02-26-2013, 03:31 PM
  #64
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What's Fonzie like?!

Correctomundo! And that's what we're gonna be. We're gonna be cool.


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02-26-2013, 05:08 PM
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I'll bite....

You generally see call ups from the AHL playing well their first 10 or even 20 games but then the wheels fall off when the daily grind of the NHL gets to them. Maybe they train extra hard in the off season and come back stronger, but most of the time this is when AHL players are separated from NHL players. Separate the boys from the men, if you will.

Leafs entire defense is made up AHL defensemen. Frazer, Kostka, Holzer are not going to be the players they are now, in the playoffs. They will most likely have poor showings. Guys like Gunnarsson, Phaneuf, Liles and even Komisarek if he's still on the team will be the defensemen who get ice time in the playoffs. Phaneuf and Komisarek are tough, but not enough to intimidate another team.

Orr, McClaren and Brown will all be healthy scratches in the playoffs. Guys like that don't play in the playoffs. Without them or Fraser... how tough are the Leafs?

Lupul Bozak Kessel
JVR Grabo Kulemin
MacArthur Kadri Frattin
Komarov McClement Steckel

Phaneuf Gunnarsson
Liles Franson
Komisarek Gardiner

Does that team look tough to you?When you talk about team toughness, it's not having 3 heavyweight fighters in the line up. It's having toughness and grit in your top 6 forwards and top 4 defensemen, something the Leafs have a fair amount of (Phaneuf, JVR, Kulemin) but it's certainly not their strength.

If Leafs end up playing against Montreal... then they'll be the tougher team in the playoffs. Any other team and Leafs team toughness will be equal or less.
Good post, but I disagree. Those tough guys create an atmosphere in both their teammates and in the opposition. The team in the East which most say is the toughest is Boston. Boston relies heavily on intimidation through players like Thorton, Horton, and Lucic. The Leafs have guys tougher than those three. Consequently, those Bruin bullies mind their manners, and try to stick to hockey, which they are not good at. This means the Leafs skill will overshadow the Bruins skill, and the Leafs will win. That's why I don't see any team in the East stopping the Leafs. I was worried about the Leafs goaltending, but the two young guys have proven they are fully able to handle the load, and carry the team for 4 to 7 games in a row.

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02-26-2013, 05:14 PM
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Boston has destroyed us for the past few seasons. Maybe its a tad premature to claim that the leafs would beat Boston "for certain"
I like the Bruins also, but do believe they rely too heavily on intimidation over skill. The Leafs toughness will certainly cause the Bruins tough guys to answer the bell, leaving them hard pressed to match the Leaf's skill. Plus, I'm not certain Boston players like Lucic would even take on any one of the Leafs toughest players. Buffalo has soundly beaten Boston twice this year. The Boston tough guys had to answer to Scott, and we all saw that result, and so did the Bruin's bench.

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02-26-2013, 05:54 PM
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Good post, but I disagree. Those tough guys create an atmosphere in both their teammates and in the opposition. The team in the East which most say is the toughest is Boston. Boston relies heavily on intimidation through players like Thorton, Horton, and Lucic. The Leafs have guys tougher than those three. Consequently, those Bruin bullies mind their manners, and try to stick to hockey, which they are not good at. This means the Leafs skill will overshadow the Bruins skill, and the Leafs will win. That's why I don't see any team in the East stopping the Leafs. I was worried about the Leafs goaltending, but the two young guys have proven they are fully able to handle the load, and carry the team for 4 to 7 games in a row.
Which Leafs players are tougher than these three? Thornton is 35 now so it's no wonder why he's seeing diminished ice time, but when they won the Stanley Cup he averaged 10 minutes during the regular season and 7 minutes during the playoffs. Colton Orr average 10 minutes over two games and it was practically front page news in Toronto. He's not going to play those minutes on a regular basis.

If you think guys like JVR/Lupul/Kulemin are stronger and grittier than Horton and Lucic, I respectfully disagree.

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02-26-2013, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Leo Trollmarov View Post
I think McLaren is better than he gets credit for defensively. I think he will see 4-5 a game, with Orr seeing 2-4. Might not be a huge factor, but having them in the game when things get rough will be a huge advantage for the Leafs. We are where we are in large part to our toughness and great defensive play, I don't see a reason to change the formula, just strengthen it where needed.
That's fine if that's what you think, but it doesn't make it true. No offense.

Maybe, maaaybe, in the first round you'd see Orr or McClaren or Brown getting 5 minutes a game, but if the Leafs somehow got into the Stanley Cup finals where the stakes would be so incredibly high for this franchise, there's no way they get a single shift. It's way too risky to play guys like that where one defensive mistake, one bad penalty - could result in a lost game and ultimately a lost series. It just doesn't happen, go through the stats if you don't believe me.

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02-26-2013, 06:44 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by BallHockeyLegend View Post
That's fine if that's what you think, but it doesn't make it true. No offense.

Maybe, maaaybe, in the first round you'd see Orr or McClaren or Brown getting 5 minutes a game, but if the Leafs somehow got into the Stanley Cup finals where the stakes would be so incredibly high for this franchise, there's no way they get a single shift. It's way too risky to play guys like that where one defensive mistake, one bad penalty - could result in a lost game and ultimately a lost series. It just doesn't happen, go through the stats if you don't believe me.
And you saying it isn't true, doesn't make it so.

I agree, later rounds they would be used less, but it would also have a lot to d with line matching. If the other team sends out the bruisers and you see them taking out our players, you better be damn sure Carlyle puts them on, double that if we are at home with last change.

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02-26-2013, 06:57 PM
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And you saying it isn't true, doesn't make it so.
Lol, he's an enforcer who averages 5 minutes a game, the onus isn't mine, it's yours.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread over McClaren's defensive prowess. I'll agree to disagree.

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02-26-2013, 07:08 PM
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Lol, he's an enforcer who averages 5 minutes a game, the onus isn't mine, it's yours.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack this thread over McClaren's defensive prowess. I'll agree to disagree.
Onus? I think people under rate what he contributes defensively. There is no onus on anything.

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02-26-2013, 07:14 PM
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I'll bite....

You generally see call ups from the AHL playing well their first 10 or even 20 games but then the wheels fall off when the daily grind of the NHL gets to them. Maybe they train extra hard in the off season and come back stronger, but most of the time this is when AHL players are separated from NHL players. Separate the boys from the men, if you will.

Leafs entire defense is made up AHL defensemen. Frazer, Kostka, Holzer are not going to be the players they are now, in the playoffs. They will most likely have poor showings. Guys like Gunnarsson, Phaneuf, Liles and even Komisarek if he's still on the team will be the defensemen who get ice time in the playoffs. Phaneuf and Komisarek are tough, but not enough to intimidate another team.

Orr, McClaren and Brown will all be healthy scratches in the playoffs. Guys like that don't play in the playoffs. Without them or Fraser... how tough are the Leafs?

Lupul Bozak Kessel
JVR Grabo Kulemin
MacArthur Kadri Frattin
Komarov McClement Steckel

Phaneuf Gunnarsson
Liles Franson
Komisarek Gardiner

Does that team look tough to you? The strength in the leafs is having Brown, McClaren and Orr in the line up so that the top 6 can play a couple inches taller. Kulemin is a big boy but he's not going to strike fear into the opponents. Same with Lupul, JVR and Frattin. They can handle their own on the cycle and won't get tossed around, but they aren't going to toss other people around either. Bozak, Kessel, Kadri, MacArthur are all soft-ish players. The fourth line will be mainly penalty killers and an energy line that will only be used sparingly.

When you talk about team toughness, it's not having 3 heavyweight fighters in the line up. It's having toughness and grit in your top 6 forwards and top 4 defensemen, something the Leafs have a fair amount of (Phaneuf, JVR, Kulemin) but it's certainly not their strength.

If Leafs end up playing against Montreal... then they'll be the tougher team in the playoffs. Any other team and Leafs team toughness will be equal or less.
Ha ha, so in the playoffs your saying Toronto would bench Fraser (top +-) player in the league currently, Holtzer (currently top pairing defenseman) and Kostka (Carlyle's favorite) with 3 that have barely played? They also are going to bench all 3 of their tougher players in Orr, Brown and McClaren who have universally been praised as part of the reason the Team has regained a measure of respectability, and made the Leafs a much harder team to play against?

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02-26-2013, 07:29 PM
  #73
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Ha ha, so in the playoffs your saying Toronto would bench Fraser (top +-) player in the league currently, Holtzer (currently top pairing defenseman) and Kostka (Carlyle's favorite) with 3 that have barely played? They also are going to bench all 3 of their tougher players in Orr, Brown and McClaren who have universally been praised as part of the reason the Team has regained a measure of respectability, and made the Leafs a much harder team to play against?
Yes.

What I said is Kostka, Holzer and Fraser are playing well now, but I don't expect it to last. Same way Ottawa is playing well now icing their AHL team. Players get a chance to play in the NHL and play their hearts out. The adrenaline wears off after a while and their weaknesses start to glare.

Benching or at least severely limiting Orr, McClaren and Brown's ice time is all but a certainty. Show me an enforcer who played 5 minutes a game during the regular season who played any significant amount of time (5 minutes or more) during a deep play off run... it doesn't happen. Regular season is different than playoffs.

I'll further explain, I appreciate Orr, McClaren and Brown probably more than the average fan. I love fighting. During the regular season it keeps your star players injury free over a long 82 game season (assuming Phaneuf doesn't hit them with a slap shot). However, in the playoffs only players who can be relied upon defensively end up playing a regular shift. The stakes are too high in the playoffs to let an enforcer be on the ice. Orr doesn't fight against regular players, he fights against other team's heavyweights. He won't be able to pick someone out for a fight and give the team a boost. If he tries to pick a fight, chances are he'll end up with a roughing or instigator penalty. Therefor, if Orr can't fight.. he's out.

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02-26-2013, 07:31 PM
  #74
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lol yay us.

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02-26-2013, 07:37 PM
  #75
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Onus? I think people under rate what he contributes defensively. There is no onus on anything.
You said he is underrated defensively. By definition that means you think the general consensus is wrong. I am saying if you want to assert that as a point, you need to disprove the general consensus. It is not me who needs to validate the general consensus. That's how debates work.

If he was truly a reliable defensive player, he would play more than 5 minutes a game. That's a fact. If you think that he's better than what his ice time indicates, you need to explain why.

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