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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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Old
02-26-2013, 05:49 PM
  #851
MNNumbers
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And, if it goes 15/15, the what's the matrix??

For 7-teams:
2 x 15 = 30
3 x 8 = 24
4x5 + 2x4 = 28 (Note odd game against 4 div opponents. NHL bylaws already have a provision for this. Many of us hate it, but the League and PA have never objected to this as far as I know.)

For 8- teams:
2 x 15 = 30
3 x 7 = 21
3x5 + 4x4 = 31 (Note same issue with odd games.)

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02-26-2013, 05:50 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by Morris Wanchuk View Post
Fax!

Wow, so much technology
My understanding is that a fax with a signature is a (legal) binding document while a text, email, voicemail, tweet, FB update is not. So if they are counting ballots, it's understandable.

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02-26-2013, 05:50 PM
  #853
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Originally Posted by QuizGuy66 View Post
The 7-team divisions can't have each team playing exactly 29 division games. 7 times 29 = 203. Somebody at the NHL failed basic math.

My guess is they go to 30 divisional games in the western conference divisions (play each team 5 times) and then play 6 of the teams in the other division 3 times each and play 1 of the teams in the other division 2 times (a total of 20 games).

-QG
The math works.

Other Conference: 16 teams x 2 games (home/away) = 32 games

Own Conference: 7 teams x 3 games (home/away/home or vice versa, etc.) = 21 games

Own Division: 5 teams x 5 games = 25 (home/away/home/away/home or vice versa, etc.)
1 team x 4 games = 4 (home/away/home/away) = 4, or 29 games in total.

Combined total is 82 games.


Last edited by Physicist: 02-26-2013 at 05:56 PM.
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02-26-2013, 05:52 PM
  #854
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Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
The math works.

Other Conference: 16 teams x 2 games (home/away) = 32 games

Own Conference: 7 teams x 3 games (home/away/home or vice versa, etc.) = 21 games

Own Division: 5 teams x 5 games = 25 (home/away/home/away/home or vice versa, etc.)
1 team x 4 games = 25 (home/away/home/away) = 4, or 29 games in total.

Combined total is 82 games.
What he is saying is that if each team plays 29 division games, that is a total of 203 team*divisiongames. But, that number has to be even, because there are 2 teams in each game.

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02-26-2013, 06:03 PM
  #855
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Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
The math works.

Other Conference: 16 teams x 2 games (home/away) = 32 games

Own Conference: 7 teams x 3 games (home/away/home or vice versa, etc.) = 21 games

Own Division: 5 teams x 5 games = 25 (home/away/home/away/home or vice versa, etc.)
1 team x 4 games = 4 (home/away/home/away) = 4, or 29 games in total.

Combined total is 82 games.
No it doesn't. let's look at the Central. St. Louis, Chicago, Minnesota, Dallas, Winnipeg, Colorado, Nashville.

Let's say St. Louis and Chicago only play 4 times. Fine.
Minnesota and Dallas only play 4 times. Fine.
Winnipeg and Colorado only play 4 times, Fine.
Well, that means all 6 of those teams are playing Nashville 5 times, so Nashville is playing 30 games in the division.

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02-26-2013, 06:05 PM
  #856
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So how long til we complain about weak semi final games because one division ate itself in early matchups

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02-26-2013, 06:07 PM
  #857
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So how long til we complain about weak semi final games because one division ate itself in early matchups
? I'd imagine the two division winners get the top two seeds, and the rest go in order of points. I don't think the playoffs will be divisional.

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02-26-2013, 06:08 PM
  #858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
What he is saying is that if each team plays 29 division games, that is a total of 203 team*divisiongames. But, that number has to be even, because there are 2 teams in each game.
I'll try and break down my interpretation a bit further.

Each team is playing games against six other teams within it's division, five of which have five games apiece, one of which has four. There's an odd number of games against and odd number of teams. Unsurprisingly, this ends up as an odd number.

In this case, the each team plays against 5 teams within their own division five times, which gives you a cumulative total of 175 games. (7*5*5 = 175)

Each team then plays against 1 team within their own division four times, which gives you a cumulative total of 175 games. (7*1*4 = 28)

175+28 = 203

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02-26-2013, 06:09 PM
  #859
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? I'd imagine the two division winners get the top two seeds, and the rest go in order of points. I don't think the playoffs will be divisional.
Well my bad. Still hate 16 fighting for 8 spots compared to 14 for 8 in the other

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02-26-2013, 06:16 PM
  #860
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Wouldn't Vancouver probably be the worst off team in terms of travel though with the current format and their division?

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02-26-2013, 06:21 PM
  #861
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Originally Posted by Denzil View Post
? I'd imagine the two division winners get the top two seeds, and the rest go in order of points. I don't think the playoffs will be divisional.
go back and read the thread. Divisional play-offs with a chance for a cross-over with the last two teams.

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02-26-2013, 06:31 PM
  #862
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Well that's lame. Only part of this I can't get behind.

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02-26-2013, 06:34 PM
  #863
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
I'll try and break down my interpretation a bit further.

Each team is playing games against six other teams within it's division, five of which have five games apiece, one of which has four. There's an odd number of games against and odd number of teams. Unsurprisingly, this ends up as an odd number.

In this case, the each team plays against 5 teams within their own division five times, which gives you a cumulative total of 175 games. (7*5*5 = 175)

Each team then plays against 1 team within their own division four times, which gives you a cumulative total of 175 games. (7*1*4 = 28)

175+28 = 203
I think you are missing the boat...

In each seven-team division, a pair of teams must play the four games. In a division with an odd number of teams, it may look mathematically possible, but it is impossible:

Los Angeles and Vancouver:
Plays all teams in Pacific five times, except each other only four

Anaheim and Calgary:
Plays all teams in Pacific five times, except each other only four

Phoenix and Edmonton:
Plays all teams in Pacific five times, except each other only four

What about San Jose?

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02-26-2013, 06:36 PM
  #864
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Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
I think you are missing the boat...

In each seven-team division, a pair of teams must play the four games. In a division with an odd number of teams, it may look mathematically possible, but it is impossible:

Los Angeles and Vancouver:
Plays all teams in Pacific five times, except each other only four

Anaheim and Calgary:
Plays all teams in Pacific five times, except each other only four

Phoenix and Edmonton:
Plays all teams in Pacific five times, except each other only four

What about San Jose?
No, Physicist is exactly right. He is explaining why it doesnt work to a poster who said it does. I did the same breakdown as you with the midwest.

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02-26-2013, 06:37 PM
  #865
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Originally Posted by Denzil View Post
Well that's lame. Only part of this I can't get behind.
I take it you are not old enough to remember what the NHL was like in the 80s and early 90s?

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02-26-2013, 06:41 PM
  #866
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
I take it you are not old enough to remember what the NHL was like in the 80s and early 90s?
I am actually. What difference does that make? It's a bad idea that helps clubs in bad divisions while punishing those from good ones.

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02-26-2013, 06:46 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by Denzil View Post
I am actually. What difference does that make? It's a bad idea that helps clubs in bad divisions while punishing those from good ones.
Then if you were watching back then, you should know how much more intense the division rivalries were compared to today.

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02-26-2013, 06:52 PM
  #868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Let's see now. PA was against 4-conference setup because some teams had 4/7 chance to make playoffs and some 4/8. Now, we propose a system where the West has a 8/14 and the East a 8/16. And, the League thinks the PA will sign off on this?

Someone is not thinking ahead, and not using the information at hand.

If they go to a 2-conf, 4-div setup, with Top 3 in each Div, + 2 extras, and the PA is consistent in their thinking, then they have to go to a 15/15 alignment.

That's not my thought. That's just going by what the PA said before.
The same thoughts have been going through my mind. Seems the more time goes on, the bigger of a cluster this whole thing seems to get. Maybe it's part of the leagues strategy...keep putting out screwier and screwier ideas and the PA will concede to the sanest. This latest headache...just screams 'this is what happens when you try to make everyone happy'. I can't see how anyone, BoG OR PA would pass this one. The only semi-good thing is that this 'western conference' is pared down to 3 TZ as opposed to 4.

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02-26-2013, 06:52 PM
  #869
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I still say the PA will be fine with it now, because the 14 is the West, and therefore there is a tradeoff between lower travel and fewer teams.
Yep and with the fact that the west is across 3 time zones with the wild card a team could end up in the playoffs playing every away game til the division finals out of time zone. That's if they win.
Where it really stinks is that means a team winning the division is punished in the first round at times playing 2 time zones away. Which makes no sense.

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02-26-2013, 07:02 PM
  #870
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I have no problem with the four groups.

I have a problem with how those groups are still in Eastern/Western conferences and this wildcard non-sense.

How can you decide your "wildcards" based off points when teams in separate divisions are playing completely different schedules?

The Patrick and Adams are going to play each other home/home vs everyone ONCE. Letting the 5th place Patrick team into the Adams Division playoffs as the 4 seed is horribly stupid. Points are the result of playing your schedule, and you have basically a division-only schedule now.

The East/West Conference playoffs had essentially five "wild cards" based on points, but they played a total of 11 different games.

That isn't not totally fair, but it's also relatively within your control: You play those teams who have a different schedule 40 times total. You can inflict losses on them so they can't catch you even if they go 11-0 vs easier teams in their division.

At least last year's FOUR CONFERENCE proposal, you had like three different games within the conference. It's within your control.

The difference in the new matrix is 24 different games.

I've always argued that that when the 2011 Stars had 95 points and missed the playoffs and the 93-point 2011 Rangers made the playoffs, it was because they didn't play the same schedules. It wasn't totally fair, but it was relatively close. The two teams only played 18 similar games all season; points isn't an apples-to-apples.

Now we're making apples to oranges a yearly thing for the last two playoff spots? That isn't remotely close to fair to anyone.

Fair is when the teams competing for the same prize have the schedule to play to determine the seeding. This is the worst of both worlds.

We need two more teams. Quickly.

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02-26-2013, 07:03 PM
  #871
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No, Physicist is exactly right. He is explaining why it doesnt work to a poster who said it does. I did the same breakdown as you with the midwest.
Nah, Physicist was explaining that it could work to a guy who said it couldn't work; which we all have said... all except for him.

We all (except for that one post) are correctly saying that an odd number of teams cannot play an odd number of games against themselves, no matter how the games are divvied up.

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02-26-2013, 07:10 PM
  #872
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Bill Daly to Renaud Lavoie (RDS) on the appearance of no possible relocation or expansion in the East: "We have to deal now with our current realities, not with hypothetical situations in the future. If and when we have to reconsider alignment in light of changes in franchise make-up and location we will address the relevant issues at that time."


Last edited by Material Defender: 02-26-2013 at 09:11 PM. Reason: Exact quote taken from @RenLavoieRDS
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02-26-2013, 07:22 PM
  #873
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Originally Posted by Crayton View Post
Nah, Physicist was explaining that it could work to a guy who said it couldn't work; which we all have said... all except for him.

We all (except for that one post) are correctly saying that an odd number of teams cannot play an odd number of games against themselves, no matter how the games are divvied up.
jesus, I am just off. went back and read the page, I even pointed out to him that the math doesn't work and I still screwed it up down the line.

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02-26-2013, 07:28 PM
  #874
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The only thing that's stupid is that there will be a 16/14 split. Obviously, there's going to be expansion, but it should have been kept even. That's going to be an awkward conversation in the BOG when they put a team back in Quebec, and the debate becomes which one of Detroit or Columbus moves back to the West against their will, and when Quebec is added, it's clearly going to be Detroit.

The other issue is that if Vancouver ends up with the best record in the conference, and Nashville is the wild card, that's a big disadvantage.

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02-26-2013, 07:40 PM
  #875
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The only thing that's stupid is that there will be a 16/14 split. Obviously, there's going to be expansion, but it should have been kept even. That's going to be an awkward conversation in the BOG when they put a team back in Quebec, and the debate becomes which one of Detroit or Columbus moves back to the West against their will, and when Quebec is added, it's clearly going to be Detroit.

The other issue is that if Vancouver ends up with the best record in the conference, and Nashville is the wild card, that's a big disadvantage.
In the short term, the 16/14 split will be OK. Baseball had it this way for 15 years and made it by.

I think if the league goes to 32 and Quebec is one of the expansion sites, I can see the 4 conference plan being resurrected, since the wings will not be moved to the 'western' conference but a 'mid western' conference.

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