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Does Henrik Zetterberg have a shot at the Hall?

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02-22-2013, 04:40 PM
  #51
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I would say that for most of their career, the difference in overall performance between Datsyuk and Zetterberg has been paper thin. So if you think Datsyuk is a lock now, Zetterberg is a lock a year from now assuming he continues his "normal" level of play.

Zetterberg captaining a team, especially an O6 team, also helps his HHOF case.
I would put Datsyuk in before Zetterberg. Maybe I spoke too soon saying Datsyuk could be in right now. I am not saying he doesn't have a case though because he strung together some better seasons than Zetterberg. Two years in a row finishing 4th in scoring and still winning the Selke those two years. Throw in 4 Lady Byngs, a total of 3 Selkes, some good playoff performances to make up for his early years where he choked a lot. Also the fact he is one of the more talented players to ever lace up a pair of skates. Also has two Cups.

Keep in mind he also wasn't much worse than Zetterberg in the 2008 Cup run. He too had a fine performance. Plus he is aging rather well. I can see more good years. If he ends up getting over 1000 points with 3 Selkes to his name and some championships then I can't see how he would be kept out.

I'll say one thing though, a true HHOFer does not need "credit" for a locked out season. I don't really like that term at all. I am not a big fan for rewarding a person for doing nothing.

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02-22-2013, 04:43 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I would put Datsyuk in before Zetterberg. Maybe I spoke too soon saying Datsyuk could be in right now. I am not saying he doesn't have a case though because he strung together some better seasons than Zetterberg. Two years in a row finishing 4th in scoring and still winning the Selke those two years. Throw in 4 Lady Byngs, a total of 3 Selkes, some good playoff performances to make up for his early years where he choked a lot. Also the fact he is one of the more talented players to ever lace up a pair of skates. Also has two Cups.

Keep in mind he also wasn't much worse than Zetterberg in the 2008 Cup run. He too had a fine performance. Plus he is aging rather well. I can see more good years. If he ends up getting over 1000 points with 3 Selkes to his name and some championships then I can't see how he would be kept out.

I'll say one thing though, a true HHOFer does not need "credit" for a locked out season. I don't really like that term at all. I am not a big fan for rewarding a person for doing nothing.
But when the HHOF looks at career milestones like 500 goals or 1200 points, it certainly makes a difference that a player missed a season and a half.

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02-22-2013, 04:50 PM
  #53
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But when the HHOF looks at career milestones like 500 goals or 1200 points, it certainly makes a difference that a player missed a season and a half.
I can think of a few players who have 500 goals and should never get into the HHOF. Whatever the kangaroo court of the committee decides is less important to me than what they SHOULD be judging it on. I think we talked about this before and I just don't see many players where a lockout is something that could cost them a shot at the HHOF. Hossa is still playing and playing rather well. Elias always had those up and down seasons and even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and say he has a PPG in those years he is still miles away from a PPG player in his career. Maybe it'll hurt Alfredsson or maybe he gets in anyway. He is the one it could have hurt the most. In my mind the lockout "might" cost one singular player a chance at the HHOF.

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02-22-2013, 04:55 PM
  #54
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I'm not sold on Z. Assuming his next few years are average, he's going to be a borderline case. I wouldn't be upset if he made it, but also wont be up in arms if he doesn't.

Datsyuk is definitely closer. Maybe not a lock yet, but should be soon. Definitely has a strong case already.

Wouldn't be surprised if both make it eventually.

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02-22-2013, 08:00 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I would put Datsyuk in before Zetterberg. Maybe I spoke too soon saying Datsyuk could be in right now. I am not saying he doesn't have a case though because he strung together some better seasons than Zetterberg. Two years in a row finishing 4th in scoring and still winning the Selke those two years. Throw in 4 Lady Byngs, a total of 3 Selkes, some good playoff performances to make up for his early years where he choked a lot. Also the fact he is one of the more talented players to ever lace up a pair of skates. Also has two Cups.

Keep in mind he also wasn't much worse than Zetterberg in the 2008 Cup run. He too had a fine performance. Plus he is aging rather well. I can see more good years. If he ends up getting over 1000 points with 3 Selkes to his name and some championships then I can't see how he would be kept out.

I'll say one thing though, a true HHOFer does not need "credit" for a locked out season. I don't really like that term at all. I am not a big fan for rewarding a person for doing nothing.
So how do you treat guys that missed time for WWII?

The reality is that players missed seasons and some are close to HHOF material, surely 1 full season in any players peak is going to make a difference.

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02-22-2013, 09:33 PM
  #56
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Tough Luck, but no credit for locked out seasons. That said Datsyuk IMO is a lock, short of a total meltdown and, more on topic, Zetterberg is not too far off, but needs to keep it going. Neither of these players game should be judged on milestones in any case, so the lockout shouldn't kill them.


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02-22-2013, 09:41 PM
  #57
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Tough Luck, but no credit for locked out seasons. That said Datsyuk IMO is a lock, short of a total meltdown and, more on topic, Zetterberg is not too far off, but needs to keep it going. Neither of these players game should be judged on milestones in any case, so the lockout shouldn't kill them.
I think the HHOF Committee pays too much attention to milestones too, but you have to admit, they do care about them.

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02-22-2013, 11:14 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Keep in mind he also wasn't much worse than Zetterberg in the 2008 Cup run.
This is not accurate. Datsyuk was at best the fourth-best player on the Wings in that run, depending on how you rank him vs. Rafalski and Franzen. Zetterberg, Osgood, and Lidstrom were the clear 1-2-3 with separation above the rest.

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He too had a fine performance. Plus he is aging rather well. I can see more good years. If he ends up getting over 1000 points with 3 Selkes to his name and some championships then I can't see how he would be kept out.

I'll say one thing though, a true HHOFer does not need "credit" for a locked out season. I don't really like that term at all. I am not a big fan for rewarding a person for doing nothing.
No, and Z doesn't need credit. He'll be in the Hall.

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02-22-2013, 11:33 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
This is not accurate. Datsyuk was at best the fourth-best player on the Wings in that run, depending on how you rank him vs. Rafalski and Franzen. Zetterberg, Osgood, and Lidstrom were the clear 1-2-3 with separation above the rest.
I'd have put Zetterberg, Lidstrom and Datsyuk in the top 3. Osgood was rather ordinary and fell into the same trap he always seemed to get into (good enough on a top flight team but not a game changer)

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
So how do you treat guys that missed time for WWII?

The reality is that players missed seasons and some are close to HHOF material, surely 1 full season in any players peak is going to make a difference.
To be honest I don't think there are players outside of the HHOF where anyone said "Geez if only they didn't go to war." The great ones didn't need it. The Bentley brothers, Syl Apps, Turk Broda, Schmidt, etc. all did fine. The likes of Bauer and Dumart are the only ones that strike a bit of a question mark. They are in, but did they get some credit because they missed time due to the war? I don't know, but they were on hockey's best line at one time so that helps. So you might have a maximum of two players from the War era. From the lockout era it remains to be seen. Maybe Markus Naslund? Who knows? But we still don't know if this will effect the Hossa, Alfredsson crew.

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02-22-2013, 11:51 PM
  #60
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I'd have put Zetterberg, Lidstrom and Datsyuk in the top 3. Osgood was rather ordinary and fell into the same trap he always seemed to get into (good enough on a top flight team but not a game changer)
Osgood is the reason the Wings weren't a first-round upset that year. Hasek **** the bed two games in a row and Babcock switched to Osgood (who was better in the regular season, started the all-star game, and got Vezina and AS votes) and the Wings switched from a stumbling bumbling team to an unstoppable machine.

Also... you consider .930 and 1.55 "rather ordinary" goaltending? It's comparable to Roy's Smythe run in 2001. It's as good or better than Ward, Ranford, Hextall, Vernon.

But because it was Osgood, it was "rather ordinary". I suppose it's to be expected. I mean he's only Chris Osgood, right?

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02-23-2013, 12:01 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
This is not accurate. Datsyuk was at best the fourth-best player on the Wings in that run
My goodness that is pathetic.


It's honestly not even worth debating with you about anything Zetterberg (or Yzerman or Hudler) related. You're just so over the top when it comes to them that your reality is badly skewed.

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02-23-2013, 12:24 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Osgood is the reason the Wings weren't a first-round upset that year. Hasek **** the bed two games in a row and Babcock switched to Osgood (who was better in the regular season, started the all-star game, and got Vezina and AS votes) and the Wings switched from a stumbling bumbling team to an unstoppable machine.

Also... you consider .930 and 1.55 "rather ordinary" goaltending? It's comparable to Roy's Smythe run in 2001. It's as good or better than Ward, Ranford, Hextall, Vernon.

But because it was Osgood, it was "rather ordinary". I suppose it's to be expected. I mean he's only Chris Osgood, right?
How is it comparable to Roy in 2001?

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02-23-2013, 01:09 AM
  #63
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How is it comparable to Roy in 2001?
The numbers are similar both raw and in terms of ranking, and the performances were dominant?

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02-23-2013, 01:10 AM
  #64
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My goodness that is pathetic.


It's honestly not even worth debating with you about anything Zetterberg (or Yzerman or Hudler) related. You're just so over the top when it comes to them that your reality is badly skewed.
Hey silky; mirror x Datsyuk x you.

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02-23-2013, 03:18 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Hey silky; mirror x Datsyuk x you.
You watch hockey through a different set of eyes than most of us when it comes to certain players.

I'll be the first person to tell you that I'm fascinated by Datsyuk as a hockey player. I think he's one of the most skilled and creative players the game has ever seen, I think he's the best 2-way forward of his era, and I'm amazed at just how much he developed his overall game from day 1 until now. But none of these opinions are really "out there." I simply call it as I see it and I'm sure many people would agree with them.

I'll also tell you flaws to his game. He's too passive. I think he could still play as responsible as he does while asserting himself more often offensively. When he gets into the mindset that he's going to take over a game his game goes to a different level. I wish he'd play that aggressive more consistently, but he goes through stretches where it feels like he's babysitting the ice and allowing his wingers to create offense. He'd be even better if he were a little more selfish IMO. He also has average stamina. I wish he could be a horse like Fedorov was or like Kovalchuk, but he tires out at the end of shifts.

I have watched at least 90% of the games that both Datsyuk and Zetterberg have played in the NHL. I'm a hockey nut. That's why I watch practically every Detroit game, several other games throughout a season, every second that i can of the postseason regardless of teams, and read and post on HFBoards. I'm addicted. And Zetterberg's a great player. I love his motor and will, I love how he steps up his game during the biggest stages, and I love what he's done for Detroit. I just happen to think that up until this point in time Datsyuk has been the better player.

If anything I've said makes me biased, than it is what it is. The difference is that there's a lot of similar posters as me. I have rarely, however, met another poster who considers Yzerman a top 10 player of all time. And I've never met anybody who considered Zetterberg deserving of the Hart in 2011. Or anybody who considered Datsyuk the 4th best Red Wing at best during the 2008 run. All of that is "out there."

Like I stated at the beginning, we clearly see the game through a different set of eyes and mind when it comes to certain players.

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02-23-2013, 09:52 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
If anything I've said makes me biased, than it is what it is. The difference is that there's a lot of similar posters as me. I have rarely, however, met another poster who considers Yzerman a top 10 player of all time. And I've never met anybody who considered Zetterberg deserving of the Hart in 2011. Or anybody who considered Datsyuk the 4th best Red Wing at best during the 2008 run. All of that is "out there."
It's not an unreasonable opinion. Zetterberg won the Conn Smythe after all. Franzen broke Gordie Howe's playoff goal scoring record and outscored the entire Avalanche team during their series. Lidstrom was Lidstrom. And Osgood posted great numbers.

That doesn't mean Datsyuk isn't an all-world player. The team was just loaded.

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02-23-2013, 10:07 AM
  #67
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I'll say one thing though, a true HHOFer does not need "credit" for a locked out season. I don't really like that term at all. I am not a big fan for rewarding a person for doing nothing.
Zetterberg has played through-out both lock-outs. In 2004-2005 he won the SEL scoring title playing against about 75 NHL players.

I'm sure won't matter to the HHOF committe, but it's not literally "doing nothing".

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02-23-2013, 10:19 AM
  #68
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Zetterberg has played through-out both lock-outs. In 2004-2005 he won the SEL scoring title playing against about 75 NHL players.

I'm sure won't matter to the HHOF committe, but it's not literally "doing nothing".
Sadly, it has little to no value in HHOF induction.
I think it is reasonable to think that Z would have had an "average" year on his standards.

But usually one year should not be the difference between making it in or not.

Actually, i have not checked but does somebody know how many inductees there have been that were most likely left out without their best year?

I would reckon not many.

Edit:
Maybe Bure? But he is a different case since then the question is about longevity and not level of play.


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02-23-2013, 10:27 AM
  #69
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Actually, i have not checked but does somebody know how many inductees there have been that were most likely left out without their best year?

I would reckon not many.
I think all of 2011's inductees could have been left out without their best year.

Take away 1992-93 from Gilmour, 1985-86 from Howe, 1988-89 or 1998-99 from Nieuwendyk, and 1990-91 or 1998-99 from Belfour. There's a good chance none of them make it.

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02-23-2013, 11:14 AM
  #70
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I think all of 2011's inductees could have been left out without their best year.

Take away 1992-93 from Gilmour, 1985-86 from Howe, 1988-89 or 1998-99 from Nieuwendyk, and 1990-91 or 1998-99 from Belfour. There's a good chance none of them make it.
interesting question. gilmour without his best year would be a borderline guy, who still probably would eventually get in due to stats and one monster leafs year ('94). howe probably wouldn't get in, but i think many of us would still be making arguments for him until the end of time (and without '86, that's still two norris runner-ups and his playoff record is still intact). nieuwendyk without the conn smythe, absolutely not.

belfour without his vezina-winning rookie year probably never even sticks in the NHL. i mean, hasek was right there behind him and made the all-rookie team the following year. if belfour doesn't set the league on fire in '91, keenan gets itchy and goes with jacques cloutier, and once that proves itself not to be sustainable, he'll turn to hasek. and if hasek plays well, which he probably does because he's hasek, keenan will just roll with him for 70 games and let all his other goalies fade away on the bench/press box.

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02-23-2013, 11:33 AM
  #71
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Osgood is the reason the Wings weren't a first-round upset that year. Hasek **** the bed two games in a row and Babcock switched to Osgood (who was better in the regular season, started the all-star game, and got Vezina and AS votes) and the Wings switched from a stumbling bumbling team to an unstoppable machine.

Also... you consider .930 and 1.55 "rather ordinary" goaltending? It's comparable to Roy's Smythe run in 2001. It's as good or better than Ward, Ranford, Hextall, Vernon.

But because it was Osgood, it was "rather ordinary". I suppose it's to be expected. I mean he's only Chris Osgood, right?
I did not say Osgood wasn't a "good" goalie. He was good and that's about where I usually leave it. He wasn't someone you thought would beat you when you went against the Red Wings. Osgood finished 11th in Vezina voting in 2008 with one singular 3rd place vote. The word "great" isn't something you usually associate with him. I would associate the word "steady" with him. He didn't rob the other team blind but he was steady. Which is fine, but he is a rather below average Cup winning goalie.

In the 2008 final you have to remember how well Detroit controlled the Pens. They didn't have a lot of scoring chances especially in the first couple of games. Osgood barely made a decent save in the first two games. He didn't have to, which was much of the trademark of his career. I'd have definitely ranked Datsyuk above him in importance.

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02-26-2013, 03:41 PM
  #72
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Zetterberg will make it. It might take some time, but he will make it. People seem to forget that there are very few players that play with above a point / game pace during their careers anymore. And they add 4 players every year to the hall. Sooner or later they will run out of these monster players that have over 1200 career points.

Zetterberg will probably make it to 1000 career points and he has the cup and a olympic goald medal. I would be very surprised if he didn't make it...

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02-26-2013, 08:51 PM
  #73
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I think all of 2011's inductees could have been left out without their best year.

Take away 1992-93 from Gilmour, 1985-86 from Howe, 1988-89 or 1998-99 from Nieuwendyk, and 1990-91 or 1998-99 from Belfour. There's a good chance none of them make it.
Gilmour was borderline even with 92-93; he definitely does not get in without it.

Howe was a first-team All-Star (and should have been Norris winner) in 1983. He was also the third-best defenseman of the 1980s behind Bourque and Coffey.

Nieuwendyk is like Gilmour; borderline as-is, take away his top year and he's a definite no.

Belfour won two Vezinas, was a Hart finalist as a rookie, won a Calder, and won a Cup. Not to mention the massive number of wins he had. Take away 1991 or 1993, and he's still in.

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