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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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Old
02-26-2013, 11:03 PM
  #901
Acesolid
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
They just said on sportnets that NHLPA is holding an agreement, wanting to have a contengency plan should the Coyotes move to Québec City.
I just heard it, according to them, one of the things holding up a deal on realignment is that the NHLPA is asking a very good question: what are the contingencies should the Coyotes have to be relocated to Québec?

Looks good for us!

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02-26-2013, 11:09 PM
  #902
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
That could work too, but isn't any more balanced than this approach. And also far more difficult to work out the matrix.
Disagree Tawnos:

Vs Eastern Conference: 32 games
Vs Own Division: 30 games = 5 vs everyone
Vs other division in conference = 20 games. 6x3 =18 + 1x2 =20

As for how you decide that:
Just line them up alphabetically
Ana Chi
Cal Col
Edm Dal
LA Min
Pho Nas
SJ St L
Van Win

Whoever you are across from, you play twice.
Next year, rotate the Midwest Division 1 team, and do the same.

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02-26-2013, 11:16 PM
  #903
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Disagree Tawnos:

Vs Eastern Conference: 32 games
Vs Own Division: 30 games = 5 vs everyone
Vs other division in conference = 20 games. 6x3 =18 + 1x2 =20

As for how you decide that:
Just line them up alphabetically
Ana Chi
Cal Col
Edm Dal
LA Min
Pho Nas
SJ St L
Van Win

Whoever you are across from, you play twice.
Next year, rotate the Midwest Division 1 team, and do the same.
Fair enough. Although the balance point remains: neither version is more or less unbalanced. Either way, this really isn't a huge issue. You like this way. For whatever reason, the league likes the other way.

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02-26-2013, 11:20 PM
  #904
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Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Fair enough. Although the balance point remains: neither version is more or less unbalanced. Either way, this really isn't a huge issue. You like this way. For whatever reason, the league likes the other way.
I agree on the balance issue. I was not aware that the league had released their 'fix' for the issue and that it was as you described. I am sorry.

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02-26-2013, 11:23 PM
  #905
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Originally Posted by Acesolid View Post
I just heard it, according to them, one of the things holding up a deal on realignment is that the NHLPA is asking a very good question: what are the contingencies should the Coyotes have to be relocated to Québec?

Looks good for us!
They also mentioned that per the CBA the players have no say in relocation and expansion. So in theory the NHL doesn't have to give the NHLPA any contingency plan.

That being said though, I can't imagine the Phoenix situation isn't in the back of the NHL's mind. If the Coyotes are soon left with no choice but to relocate, then perhaps this proposal should tell us that Quebec City is not the first option that the NHL is looking at for relocation, but rather somewhere out west.

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02-26-2013, 11:28 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
I agree on the balance issue. I was not aware that the league had released their 'fix' for the issue and that it was as you described. I am sorry.
They haven't, but the answer is pretty obvious if you plug it into a simple matrix. If that is the way they're going, and the memo outlined that, then the solution for the scheduling issue is there. If they change their plans on it, that's fine too.

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02-26-2013, 11:30 PM
  #907
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
They also mentioned that per the CBA the players have no say in relocation and expansion. So in theory the NHL doesn't have to give the NHLPA any contingency plan.

That being said though, I can't imagine the Phoenix situation isn't in the back of the NHL's mind. If the Coyotes are soon left with no choice but to relocate, then perhaps this proposal should tell us that Quebec City is not the first option that the NHL is looking at for relocation, but rather somewhere out west.
Technically they do, because the PA could just vote down their proposal if they refuse to give them one.

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02-26-2013, 11:32 PM
  #908
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
They also mentioned that per the CBA the players have no say in relocation and expansion. So in theory the NHL doesn't have to give the NHLPA any contingency plan.

That being said though, I can't imagine the Phoenix situation isn't in the back of the NHL's mind. If the Coyotes are soon left with no choice but to relocate, then perhaps this proposal should tell us that Quebec City is not the first option that the NHL is looking at for relocation, but rather somewhere out west.
And it makes sense to go somewhere out west. The league will be able to get a bigger franchise fee out of a Canadian market.

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02-26-2013, 11:35 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by tsanuri View Post
And it makes sense to go somewhere out west. The league will be able to get a bigger franchise fee out of a Canadian market.
And those markets are in which part of Canada?

Thus rendering this plan useless. "Well, we'll move two teams East and then leave two spots open in the Western Conference, ignoring that the Canadian markets we're looking at are in the Eastern Time Zone."

Brilliant plan. Hope they vote it down and force to league to quick fix Winnipeg and then just freaking WAIT until they have it right instead of cramming this down everyone's throat.

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02-26-2013, 11:35 PM
  #910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
I can't believe it:

It's actually up on NHL.com.

All divisions as HNIC reported.

Names: ATLANTIC = the New York teams' division
CENTRAL = Montreal and Boston's division

MIDWEST = Minnesota's division
PACIFIC = Los Angeles' division

2 conferences, 4 divisions. Top 3 in each auto-qualify. Each conference gets 2 more.

Matrix = also as reported

To me: 2 problems.

1) There is still a 14/16 split, meaning the western teams have greater likelihood of qualifying for the playoffs. No big deal to me, but I thought the PA was dead against that.

2) Playing matrix still says that the 7-team divisions will play:
Out of conference = home/home = 32 games.
Out of division = 3 games = 21 games.
In division = all other games.

As we have calculated, that makes 82 games, sure, but it's impossible for the in division matrix to work out that way.
Is it april fools day or something? I still can't believe this is a serious proposal. I said it before, I'll say it again. How the hell does thhe league explain any of this to the casual or new fan and have it make sense to them? After all, they're the ones the league is trying to draw in, correct? When it's such a cluster that long time, true, hardcore fans are having problems wrapping our heads around it, I don't see how it can work long term...or short term for that matter. I don't get how 1 more game vs a select conference makes a conference? Especially when you're taking away games from those teams in your own division. How does the absolute worst proposal, next to sticking w the status quo, get approved?? I know it's not official yet, and if there's a higher power I pray it doesn't get approved.

Many have said this regarding the alignment issue, but it should also be used for the scheduling matrix as well. Keep it simple stupid. Apparently the league and possibly even the PA fall somewhere below that moniker.

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02-26-2013, 11:38 PM
  #911
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Originally Posted by garry1221 View Post
Is it april fools day or something? I still can't believe this is a serious proposal. I said it before, I'll say it again. How the hell does thhe league explain any of this to the casual or new fan and have it make sense to them? After all, they're the ones the league is trying to draw in, correct? When it's such a cluster that long time, true, hardcore fans are having problems wrapping our heads around it, I don't see how it can work long term...or short term for that matter. I don't get how 1 more game vs a select conference makes a conference? Especially when you're taking away games from those teams in your own division. How does the absolute worst proposal, next to sticking w the status quo, get approved?? I know it's not official yet, and if there's a higher power I pray it doesn't get approved.

Many have said this regarding the alignment issue, but it should also be used for the scheduling matrix as well. Keep it simple stupid. Apparently the league and possibly even the PA fall somewhere below that moniker.
Casual and new fans don't care about the scheduling matrix. Most "hardcore" fans who post on HF don't really care about it either.

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Old
02-26-2013, 11:39 PM
  #912
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
And those markets are in which part of Canada?

Thus rendering this plan useless. "Well, we'll move two teams East and then leave two spots open in the Western Conference, ignoring that the Canadian markets we're looking at are in the Eastern Time Zone."

Brilliant plan. Hope they vote it down and force to league to quick fix Winnipeg and then just freaking WAIT until they have it right instead of cramming this down everyone's throat.
They would likely be in the U.S. and not Canada (Seattle for example).

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Old
02-26-2013, 11:42 PM
  #913
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Originally Posted by garry1221 View Post
Is it april fools day or something? I still can't believe this is a serious proposal. I said it before, I'll say it again. How the hell does thhe league explain any of this to the casual or new fan and have it make sense to them? After all, they're the ones the league is trying to draw in, correct? When it's such a cluster that long time, true, hardcore fans are having problems wrapping our heads around it, I don't see how it can work long term...or short term for that matter. I don't get how 1 more game vs a select conference makes a conference? Especially when you're taking away games from those teams in your own division. How does the absolute worst proposal, next to sticking w the status quo, get approved?? I know it's not official yet, and if there's a higher power I pray it doesn't get approved.

Many have said this regarding the alignment issue, but it should also be used for the scheduling matrix as well. Keep it simple stupid. Apparently the league and possibly even the PA fall somewhere below that moniker.
Garry,

I still don't know where this will all end, but would this be simple enough for you?
PAC - All PTZ and MTZ teams = 8
CENT - All CTZ teams + 1 of Det/Cmb/Car = 7
EXPLORER DIV - Bos, Buff, Mont, Ott, Tor, Fla, TB = 7 (I call it that because of the early settlement by the English and French along the St Lawrence and in Mass, and by the Spanish in Florida)
ATL - Pit, Phil, Was, Car, NYI, NYR, NJ, the other 2 of Det/Cmb/Car = 8

Schedule = home/home with everyone, the rest in your division.
Playoffs = Top 8 in each half. If Det/Cmb/Car qualify from the CENT, set up the First Round so that they cannot play PTZ.

Easy enough?

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Old
02-26-2013, 11:44 PM
  #914
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
They would likely be in the U.S. and not Canada (Seattle for example).
No, a western market would be reserved for a Coyotes move.... that is what the league would be saying if they didn't make a contingency for QC.

If they bid expansion out, at least one of the teams is going to be a Canadian market in the Eastern Time zone. Probably both. Okay, so what now? We just kick Columbus back out to the Western Conference? Or hope they've relocated in the time between?

Detriot obviously isn't going to be kicked back anywhere, so I guess we'd have to have a Toronto team in the EC and a Toronto team in the WC.

It is not thought out well at all. Fairest system would be 8-7-8-7, the system last year was the most logical looking at where your new markets were going to be in the future.

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02-26-2013, 11:53 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
No, a western market would be reserved for a Coyotes move.... that is what the league would be saying if they didn't make a contingency for QC.
And that's what I'm saying too. Apologies if I wasn't clear enough.

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02-26-2013, 11:54 PM
  #916
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Alternative Eastern Divisions

The newly released schedule matrix makes the Eastern Conference look like the NBA, where divisions really don't matter because you are playing every conference team (except 2) only 3 or 4 times. With more divisions, you get more divisional games in-season. And we all love those rivalries, especially Canadian TV.

4 divisions of 4; play division teams 6 times and all other conference teams 3 times

GREAT LAKES ("Central?")
Buffalo
Pittsburgh
Columbus
Detroit

NORTHEAST
Toronto
Montreal
Ottawa
Boston

ATLANTIC
Philadelphia
NY Rangers
NY Islanders
New Jersey

SOUTHEAST
Washington
Carolina
Florida
Tampa Bay

Should the Philadelphia/Pittsburgh rivalry be maintained, these teams will play each other as well as their division rivals 5 times. That would leave the remaining Great Lakes and Atlantic division teams a game short of 82. Adding a 7th Columbus vs. Detroit game, and a rotating 4th Buffalo vs. NY/NJ game (along with a 7th game between the two other NY/NJ teams) would then give all teams 82 games.

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02-26-2013, 11:55 PM
  #917
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OK - I know this will never happen. But, if they want some travel equity, then the solution is to distribute the CTZ teams across the 3 Easternmost conferences.

The CTZ teams come in pairs: Min/Win; Chi/StL; Dal/Nas.

However, given that the SE teams have struggled since their inception, and the Dal/Nas pair might be the least stable of the 3 pairs, I think it wrong to put them together to form a new SE. So, I choose this:
PAC = PTZ + MTZ.
EAST 1 = Mont, Bos, Tor, Buf, Ott, Dal, Nas
EAST 2 = Chi, StL, Flo, TB, Was, Car, Det
EAST 3 = Win, Min, NYR, NYI, NJ, Cmb, Pit, Phil

Obviously, this is a little more travel than is optimal, but it would be more equal.

Schedule would be as proposed in Dec 2011.

Playoffs: PAC = Top 4 (4/8 = 50%)
EAST 1,2,3 = Top 3 + next 3 teams (12/22 =55.5%)
Seed the East with the champions being guaranteed home ice in Round 1 only.
Play 2 rounds, you have 4 teams left. Reseed, and go for the Cup in 2 rounds.

Playoff qualification more fair if PHX moves to QUE. Then the west has 57%, and the east is 12/23 = 52.4%, plus the wild card, which smoothes that a little bit.

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02-26-2013, 11:56 PM
  #918
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crayton View Post
The newly released schedule matrix makes the Eastern Conference look like the NBA, where divisions really don't matter because you are playing every conference team (except 2) only 3 or 4 times. With more divisions, you get more divisional games in-season. And we all love those rivalries, especially Canadian TV.
Divisions do matter anyway. You're playing each divisional opponent either 33% or 66% more than conference opponents. That's a significant difference, even if you minimize it by looking at the number of games.

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02-26-2013, 11:59 PM
  #919
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Originally Posted by guyincognito View Post
No, a western market would be reserved for a Coyotes move.... that is what the league would be saying if they didn't make a contingency for QC.

If they bid expansion out, at least one of the teams is going to be a Canadian market in the Eastern Time zone. Probably both. Okay, so what now? We just kick Columbus back out to the Western Conference? Or hope they've relocated in the time between?

Detriot obviously isn't going to be kicked back anywhere, so I guess we'd have to have a Toronto team in the EC and a Toronto team in the WC.

It is not thought out well at all. Fairest system would be 8-7-8-7, the system last year was the most logical looking at where your new markets were going to be in the future.
Agreed. Maybe quick fix this time around is best until Phoenix and expansion issues are sorted.

Winnipeg to Central
Nashville to South East

Then come back when all other pieces fall into place.

Personally, if forced to have 4 conference set up now, I would have gone with

VAN CGY EDM SJ LA ANA COL PHX/SEA

WPG MIN CHI DET TOR OTW STL

MTL BOS NYI NYR NJ BUF CLM

DAL NAS TB FLO CAR WAS PIT PHI

Reason being: relativley spread out for travel, 2 time zones max, keeps slots open for GT2 and QUE expansion, regroups original six rivalries DET CHI TOR and MTL BOS NYR, keeps SE competitive with some major markets.

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02-27-2013, 12:11 AM
  #920
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
I’m probably being a broken record with this, but seriously, now that we know what seems to be getting close to the final result for the 4 Divisions alignment, wouldn’t a 3-Conference structure with this scheduling matrix truly have been better? And as for the 84 games, hell there for a short while it seemed that they were going to consider an extra wildcard play-in round, so 84 games doesn’t seem to be a big stretch.

3 Conferences (only Minnesota gets screwed) alignment and scheduling matrix, 6 Divisions, 30 teams, 84 games
6 x 4
4 x 5
2 x 20
1st two Rounds are Conference Playoffs, within each 10 team/2-Division Conference, with only 1 crossover matchup in both Rounds. The 3rd Round is a Conference Elimination Round in which one of the 3 Conferences is eliminated.

Alignment:
West Central East
PACIFICMIDWESTATLANTIC
VancouverDallasNY Rangers
San JoseSt LouisNY Islanders
Los AngelesChicagoNew Jersey
AnaheimDetroitPhiladelphia
PhoenixColumbusPittsburgh
NORTHWESTSOUTHEASTNORTHEAST
EdmontonWashingtonBoston
CalgaryCarolinaMontreal
ColoradoNashvilleOttawa
WinnipegTampa BayToronto
MinnesotaFloridaBuffalo

And if you ask about expansion, I'll reply... What about Quebec City with this planned 4 Division alignment? Good luck getting Detroit and Columbus back in the West.
Not half bad, could definitely live with this alignment.

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02-27-2013, 12:16 AM
  #921
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Conferences are arraigned by time zone, without regard to equal number of teams, or chances of any given team of making the playoffs. This alignment is strictly about time zones, nothing more, other considerations had to be thrown out the window. As for scheduling regular season play, it will be flexible, as the three western-most conferences are generally treated as one conference for scheduling proposes, with certain adjustments being made to maintain a fair number of EST-CST match-ups. (This, admittedly, also contradicts my previous argument of needing a wide variety of playoff match-ups, at least as far as three of the conferences go, but oh well. This alignment also goes completely out the window - likely to be thrown out - if Phoenix is moved anywhere out of the Mountain time zone, but I'm counting on that not happening. It is ready-made to accommodate expansion markets in any the three western-most zones - preferably both in the CST if odds of making the playoffs are an absolute consideration - though this might result in one or two conferences having an odd number of teams, and makes no consideration for the possibilities of Quebec or a second Toronto team.)

EST (16 teams, no divisions - Top eight make the playoffs, & play in their own bracket)

CST (6 teams - Top four make the playoffs, & play in their own bracket in the first two rounds)

MST (4 teams - Top two make the playoffs, & play in the first round, meets PST winner in second round *see note above about

PST (4 teams, same deal as MST)

The first-round of the playoffs in 2012, assuming all else was equal, would have looked like this:

EST
01 NY Rangers vs. 08 Washington
04 Boston vs. 05 Detroit
------
02 Pittsburgh vs. 07 Florida
03 Philadelphia vs. 06 New Jersey

CST
01 St. Louis vs. 04 Dallas
02 Nashville vs. 03 Chicago

MST
01 Phoenix vs. 02 Calgary

PST
01 Vancouver vs. 02 San Jose

(You'll notice the eventual Cup winner in real-time, LA, doesn't make it in under this alignment. Well, they were the eight-seed, and there are a lot of scenarios where they wouldn't have made it in under the proposed alignments floated about. If standings were arraigned, firstly, but number of wins as it should be, LA wouldn't have made it under the current alignment. And, yes, occasionally a real dog like last year's Calgary & Dallas teams might make it in, in lieu of perhaps most deserving teams in other conferences, but that's really no different than it is now.)

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02-27-2013, 12:18 AM
  #922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucky_Hoyt View Post
Agreed. Maybe quick fix this time around is best until Phoenix and expansion issues are sorted.

Winnipeg to Central
Nashville to South East

Then come back when all other pieces fall into place.

Personally, if forced to have 4 conference set up now, I would have gone with

VAN CGY EDM SJ LA ANA COL PHX/SEA

WPG MIN CHI DET TOR OTW STL

MTL BOS NYI NYR NJ BUF CLM

DAL NAS TB FLO CAR WAS PIT PHI

Reason being: relativley spread out for travel, 2 time zones max, keeps slots open for GT2 and QUE expansion, regroups original six rivalries DET CHI TOR and MTL BOS NYR, keeps SE competitive with some major markets.
You'd probably have to move a couple of teams to keep the current system going.

I'll say Detriot/Winnipeg/Dallas/Vancouver and see what happens.

Atlantic - Stays the same
Northeast - Stays the same
Southeast - DET, WSH, CAR, TB, FL (you wanted to be ET, you got it, stop whining)
Central - CHI, NSH, STL, CBJ, DAL
Northwest - MIN, WPG, EDM, CAL, COL
Pacific - LA, ANA, PHX, SJ, VAN

Use that as a placeholder to fix *some* concerns while waiting until you know where Phoenix and teams 31-32 are going to play.

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02-27-2013, 12:23 AM
  #923
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Why are we calling a division with Boston and Montreal a "Central" division? Unless Central has less to do with geography and more to do with being the center of the hockey universe
It's because the Red Wings have major pull with the NHL. Not only do they get to move to the Eastern Conference, they get to take their division with them!

I guess all those "Central Division Champion" banners won't look obsolete.

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02-27-2013, 12:26 AM
  #924
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MNNumbers View Post
Disagree Tawnos:

Vs Eastern Conference: 32 games
Vs Own Division: 30 games = 5 vs everyone
Vs other division in conference = 20 games. 6x3 =18 + 1x2 =20

As for how you decide that:
Just line them up alphabetically
Ana Chi
Cal Col
Edm Dal
LA Min
Pho Nas
SJ St L
Van Win

Whoever you are across from, you play twice.
Next year, rotate the Midwest Division 1 team, and do the same.
So for East Conference

Vs West Conference: 28
Vs own Division: 35 - 5 vs all
Vs other division: 19 5x2=10 + 3x3=9

Close to the matrix you used for the West. Unsure of how to do the rotation for the 19 games. Roughly the same schedule. Conferences differ by 4 games

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02-27-2013, 12:34 AM
  #925
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Originally Posted by garry1221 View Post
So for East Conference

Vs West Conference: 28
Vs own Division: 35 - 5 vs all
Vs other division: 19 5x2=10 + 3x3=9

Close to the matrix you used for the West. Unsure of how to do the rotation for the 19 games. Roughly the same schedule. Conferences differ by 4 games
Sorry. I was replying to Tawnos. He or she said that although a strict
2x32, 3x7 and the rest in the division can't work, that it's easier to do
3x7 + 1 for one team and cut one game off another team's in division matrix than to do a matrix for a 32 + 20 + 30 where you play everyone in the divisoin 5 times.
It's the matrix the NHL is proposing, I guess.

For the East, I think it's:
2x14 = 28
3 x 8 = 24, leaving 30 games.
30 games with 7 teams means 5teamsx4games + 2teamsx5games.
?? how do you make that work out?
Answer, using the proposed Central:
Line everyone up by alphabet:
Bos
Buf
Det
Flo
Mont
Ott
TB
Tor
The 2 teams you play 5 times are the team directly above you and directly below you on this list. For Tor, Bos is directly below them. The extra game is played at the home of the higher team.

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