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Should we be surprised by Jeff Carter?

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Old
02-27-2013, 12:17 AM
  #76
Syckle78
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Prove it.

How is he better than:

1.) Sidney Crosby
2.) Evgeni Malkin
3.) Steven Stamkos
4.) Henrik Sedin
5.) Daniel Sedin

Or even:
6.) Jonathan Toews
7.) Ilya Kovalchuk
8.) Claude Giroux
9.) Martin St.Louis
10.) Joe Thornton

..etc
Sedins four and five? Not sure this is reality. Perhaps you are just a Nucks fan that is still sore over that ass whooping? I'll take him over everyone not named Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos.

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02-27-2013, 12:25 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Sedins four and five? Not sure this is reality. Perhaps you are just a Nucks fan that is still sore over that ass whooping? I'll take him over everyone not named Crosby, Malkin and Stamkos.
Leafs and Caps fan, so nope. It has nothing to do with being biased, I'm an impartial fan simply evaluating talent.

The Sedins 4 & 5.. yup. The same guys who have posted more points than Pavel Datsyuk the last 3 seasons. Earned themselves 1x Hart Trophy, 1x Ted Lindsay Award, 2x Art Ross Trophy..etc You know the type of hardware that Datsyuk hasn't even come close to sniffing? Moreover, they've both also eclipsed the 100pt mark, another feat Datsyuk hasn't hit (or even come relatively close to hitting in the past several seasons).

Too bad they didn't have Henrik Zetterberg to put them over the top and win them Game 7 of the SCF so they could have a Stanley Cup ring just like Pavel Datsyuk!

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Old
02-27-2013, 12:32 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
Leafs and Caps fan, so nope. It has nothing to do with being biased, I'm an impartial fan simply evaluating talent.

The Sedins 4 & 5.. yup. The same guys who have posted more points than Pavel Datsyuk the last 3 seasons. Earned themselves 1x Hart Trophy, 1x Ted Lindsay Award, 2x Art Ross Trophy..etc You know the type of hardware that Datsyuk hasn't even come close to sniffing? Moreover, they've both also eclipsed the 100pt mark, another feat Datsyuk hasn't hit (or even come relatively close to hitting in the past several seasons).

Too bad they didn't have Henrik Zetterberg to put them over the top and win them Game 7 of the SCF so they could have a Stanley Cup ring just like Pavel Datsyuk!
Yea you are right. Much better to have the playoff warrior Sedins that flame out every year. Their one long playoff run they folded like cheap rents in the finals when the going got rough. Nothing says top five player like standing there with a stupid look on your face as someone slaps you around.

So basically your entire talent evaluation is look at the top point scorers. That's some in depth analysis. You should be like a scout or a beer vendor.

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02-27-2013, 12:33 AM
  #79
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Say what you want about Carter's lack of "clutchness" as a Flyer, but he scored some clutch goals in the SCF as well as the Kings as a whole during their run. He proved a lot of people wrong last year.

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02-27-2013, 12:36 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Yea you are right. Much better to have the playoff warrior Sedins that flame out every year. Their one long playoff run they folded like cheap rents in the finals when the going got rough. Nothing says top five player like standing there with a stupid look on your face as someone slaps you around.

So basically your entire talent evaluation is look at the top point scorers. That's some in depth analysis. You should be like a scout or a beer vendor.
How can we even discuss postseason success when Pavel Datsyuk really has no leg to stand on? In his 14 SCF games, he has registered a grand total of ONE goal.

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02-27-2013, 12:39 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
How can we even discuss postseason success when Pavel Datsyuk really has no leg to stand on? In his 14 SCF games, he has registered a grand total of ONE goal.
correct me if im wrong but doesnt postseason include the quarter and semi final rounds as well.....

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02-27-2013, 12:45 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by HockeyThoughts View Post
How can we even discuss postseason success when Pavel Datsyuk really has no leg to stand on? In his 14 SCF games, he has registered a grand total of ONE goal.
Wait you were just in another thread pimping Kessel. Now you have the nerve to run down Datsyuk for lack of production in the finals?

Datsyuk was injured for seven of those finals games. Which, ya know, you would be aware of if you didn't evaluate talent based on box scores. Speaking of finals production how did your boy superstar Crosby do in the finals? Good thing he had Geno to put him over the top, eh?

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02-27-2013, 01:00 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Wait you were just in another thread pimping Kessel. 1.) Now you have the nerve to run down Datsyuk for lack of production in the finals?

2.) Datsyuk was injured for seven of those finals games. 3.) Which, ya know, you would be aware of if you didn't evaluate talent based on box scores. 4.) Speaking of finals production how did your boy superstar Crosby do in the finals? Good thing he had Geno to put him over the top, eh?
1.) What does Phil Kessel have anything to do with Pavel Datsyuk? He has never once been mentioned in this entire thread, or even had a SCF run to speak of.

2.) The vast majority of players that have made it to the SCF are fighting a plethora of different injuries. This is why they are paid millions of dollars and we're not. They have developed the ability to play through the pain and win at all costs... At least some players have..

3.) I love this excuse. "Oh you're out of arguments to refute my points? Then you must just be stat-watching and haven't actually seen him play!" Nope, that doesn't fly. I am an absolutely avid hockey fan, I have been since I have been in grade school. I have watched so much hockey I would probably be owned millions of dollars if I had simply worked instead. I have seen every one of Datsyuk's (and Crosby's.. And Toews's..and Bergeron's..etc) SCF games and I feel that I am more then qualified to make an educated analysis on his performance in contrast to his peers.

4.) Lastly, as you requested: Sidney Crosby has posted 3G-9pts over 13 SCF games. Undeniably vastly superior to Pavel Datsyuk's 1G-6pts over 14 SCF games.

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02-27-2013, 01:01 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
correct me if im wrong but doesnt postseason include the quarter and semi final rounds as well.....
I was simply responding to his argument:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Syckle78 View Post
Yea you are right. Much better to have the playoff warrior Sedins that flame out every year. Their one long playoff run they folded like cheap rents in the finals when the going got rough. Nothing says top five player like standing there with a stupid look on your face as someone slaps you around.

So basically your entire talent evaluation is look at the top point scorers. That's some in depth analysis. You should be like a scout or a beer vendor.

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02-27-2013, 01:02 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
There is probably negativity towards him for throwing a hissy fit because he got traded to Columbus. Yes, Columbus sucked, but his bad attitude attributed to that.
In his defense he signed that deal to be a lifetime Flyer then they traded him before the NTC kicked in. And he still showed up every nigh for the blue jackets despite his hissy fit.

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02-27-2013, 01:05 AM
  #86
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Of course he didn't score in game 6 of the 2010 finals, it wasn't even a blowout!

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02-27-2013, 01:08 AM
  #87
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He was one freaking foot. The only hell you are expecting him to do? Lol


In what universe is three points vastly superior? Especially when half the games he was either hobbled, or a third line rookie? Again stop with the box score cut and paste and use context.


The funniest thing about your entire Datsyuk bash-a-palooza is he would easily be the best player on either of teams you are a fan of.

Anyways, back to our regularly scheduled thread. Carter is good at ice hockey and stuff.

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02-27-2013, 01:10 AM
  #88
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Honestly I dont know why there are so much hatred between LA and Philly in this thread. We are all supposed to love each other. Anyhow in regards to Carts, I think he played a vital role for us in the playoffs. He's been stellar so far and has no shown any sign of inconsistency. I understand where Philly fans are coming from but perhaps his inconsistency was a thing of a past. Lets just hope that he continues to dominate for us as Schenn and Simmonds have for you guys.

As for Datsyuk, he's arguably an elite player. He doesnt have the stats to back it up back his talents speak otherwise. I think you dont necessarily have to score a lot of goals to be an elite player. But is he a top 5 forward in the league? No way.

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02-27-2013, 01:17 AM
  #89
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Datsyuk gets a lot more defensive attention in the post season, which in turn opens it up more for his line mates.

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02-27-2013, 01:18 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
Multitude of reasons:

I. He was viewed as a player who never stepped up in the playoffs.

Example A:



Would have given the Flyers a 3-1 lead with less than 10 minutes left. Pens tied it, and won it in OT on a Guerin GWG. Pens went up 2-0 in the series instead of being tied 1-1 going back to Philly.

Example B:



Would have put the Flyers up a goal with a little over a minute left in game 6 against the Hawks. A chance to push the game to game 7, and he blew it. Wide open net but he waited too long to release the puck.

II. He had the body to dominate physically but never did. Much like JvR, and it was maddening for a lot of fans. He's not "soft", but he has the frame to be a horse and he doesn't play that game. Mike Richards, on the other hand, was the antithesis of Carter and we often wondered why Carter couldn't play like that (to a lesser degree, even).
Carter is the clitchiest clutch that ever clutched. Why? Because I can post two videos...





Maybe the Flyers should have held onto him a little longer and those goals could have been theirs. Whatever, I'm not complaining...

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02-27-2013, 01:22 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by kingsholygrail View Post
Datsyuk gets a lot more defensive attention in the post season, which in turn opens it up more for his line mates.
Which you would think would lead to him getting more assists to said linemates yes? Or are you imaging a defensive structure in which 3 people chase around datsyuk and the other 4 red wings just score more without him because of said fractured defensive structure?

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02-27-2013, 01:27 AM
  #92
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Talk about ignorant. I've officially seen it all now that I've seen someone actually come out and defend Roman Cechmanek. Christ almighty.
It's an example of how simpletons point their finger on a single player for the root of an organizations problems and troubles. As if it solely fell on the shoulders of Cechmanek (or Carter in this case) that the Flyers failed to go any further. That irrational line of thinking is why certain fans can't be taken seriously.

I guess some people need a scapegoat to simplify a bigger problem, which is how the organization is run. I guess that goaltending and coaching carousel that is the Flyers isn't the issue, it's just one single player who couldn't score a goal. Whatever helps you guys find a peace of mind.

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02-27-2013, 01:47 AM
  #93
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Wasn't he injured for most of the season with the Jackets? He also netted 15 goals and 29 points in 35 games on a very bad team. Pretty good numbers for a slacker.
No, your numbers are mixed up. He had 25 points in 39 games, on pace for 52 in an 82 game season. Not absolutely horrible, but not up to par either.

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02-27-2013, 02:06 AM
  #94
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Weren't Datsyuk, and to a lesser extent Zetterberg also criticized for their lack of playoff performances in Detroit for a few years?
When they were 3rd and 4th liners.

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02-27-2013, 02:46 AM
  #95
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When they were 3rd and 4th liners.
They weren't 3rd or 4th liners when they were bounced out of the first round in 2006. Datsyuk had 87 points and Zetterberg had 85 points. Detroit had an amazing regular season, then got ousted in 6 games against Edmonton. Red Wings fans ripped Datsyuk to shreds then. Now he's like the second coming of Christ.

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02-27-2013, 03:50 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
A goal scorer of Carter's ilk should definitely finish those goals.

So you're saying you wouldn't be pissed if your supposed top sniper didn't finish a golden chance to send your team to game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals?


Well I wouldn't necessarily use that instance to take anything away from that player... so what, he missed the net and it just so happened to be in an intensely pressuring situation.

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02-27-2013, 04:15 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by wahoowa View Post
Talk about ignorant. I've officially seen it all now that I've seen someone actually come out and defend Roman Cechmanek. Christ almighty.
Ignorant is blaming all of the cechmanek era flyers teams failures on him. Remember when the flyers scored TWO GOALS in a five game series and somehow the blame fell on cechmanek? That was ignorant.

He didn't show up against the sens in his last go around, but he was hardly the doom bringer in net like dan cloutier or something, who somehow got more support and defense despite being a much much much much much worse goalie.

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They weren't 3rd or 4th liners when they were bounced out of the first round in 2006. Datsyuk had 87 points and Zetterberg had 85 points. Detroit had an amazing regular season, then got ousted in 6 games against Edmonton. Red Wings fans ripped Datsyuk to shreds then. Now he's like the second coming of Christ.
Yes, datsyuk used to struggle an enormous amount in the playoffs. Most people ignore this, but it is true. That doesn't change the fact that he's figured it out and he's elevated his game an enormous amount in recent years. I point you to the san jose sharks series and their last cup run. If you want to blame a guy for a broken foot the second year then you can do that but it would make you look rather silly.

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02-27-2013, 05:16 AM
  #98
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The negativity probably stems from him begging to be traded out of Columbus. I suppose in the long run it's best for Columbus to get rid of that loser before he brought the entire team down around him....
They dont need Carter for that.

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02-27-2013, 05:29 AM
  #99
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I would like to see Jeff still put up 30+ goals playing without Richards or Gagne. Hes a good player no doubt but he benefits hugely from his linemates. Hes always had stars to play with.
If you are good, then you also play with good linemates. With such a wrister you always score 25 goals, even with inferior linemates.

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02-27-2013, 05:37 AM
  #100
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Carter's wheels are awesome, gotta say that. Very underrated skater.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
They weren't 3rd or 4th liners when they were bounced out of the first round in 2006. Datsyuk had 87 points and Zetterberg had 85 points. Detroit had an amazing regular season, then got ousted in 6 games against Edmonton. Red Wings fans ripped Datsyuk to shreds then. Now he's like the second coming of Christ.
Zetterberg had 6 goals in those games, he delivered like he basically always has. Datsyuk has turned it on just recently though last year was medicore for he's standards. That knee bothered him, couldn't outskate anyone and didn't take much draws iirc.

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