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HNIC shows new potential alignment with 16 teams in "east" groupings

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02-27-2013, 08:22 AM
  #951
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Finally. Someone has some sense here. There shouldn't be any agreement unless a contingency plan is part of it or everyone knows what's happening in Phoenix. This all becomes pointless if we're fitting Quebec City back into the East. Although, in the 90s, no one had a problem with an emergency realignment to make sure the Avalanche weren't in the Eastern Conference, for any amount of time.
That was a move across two time zones. Atlanta to Winnipeg is one thing, Quebec/Colorado or Phoenix/Quebec are much different.

I would imagine, like everything else, this realignment plan will be discussed until the last possible hour. When the schedule for next year has to be finished, whenever that is exactly, that's when we'll know what's going on. Until then, the league and PA get to...drum roll...negotiate.

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02-27-2013, 08:23 AM
  #952
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Finally. Someone has some sense here. There shouldn't be any agreement unless a contingency plan is part of it or everyone knows what's happening in Phoenix. This all becomes pointless if we're fitting Quebec City back into the East. Although, in the 90s, no one had a problem with an emergency realignment to make sure the Avalanche weren't in the Eastern Conference, for any amount of time.
There can't be a "contigency plan" because that would mean that the NHL would already have in agreement in place with a new owner for Phoenix, have a local venue in place where they will be playing, etc. Otherwise, it would only be speculation...and anyone who knows lawyers (which Bettman and Fehr are) knows they don't deal with speculation....

And who knows when, or if, Phoenix would ever move? The NHL seems perfectly content to let them stay where they are.

Even the NHLPA knows that you can always deal with "what ifs"...you deal with situations as they arise...and if the Coyotes have to be relocated at some point down the road or if expansion becomes a reality some day...then they may have to deal with realignment again.

It's really not that big of a deal...I wouldn't put too much stock in that little soundbite from Sportsnet.ca.


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02-27-2013, 08:25 AM
  #953
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Originally Posted by IceAce View Post
Don't understand why people talk about QC and Markham like it's some kind of foregone conclusion? If anything, I'd say this realignment shows that's not the case.

Do you really think that the league, after years of Detroit pleading with them to go back East, is going to put the Wings in the East and then yank them back out just a year or two later? Not happening.
This. Can you imagine how angry Detroit would be if QC got a team and they had to move into the new Midwest division after finally getting into the Eastern Conference?

I have to wonder if any relocation to QC was attempted that the Board of Governors would not allow it because of that very reason.

I understand many posters here think QC deserves to be the next city to get a relocated team, but keep in mind the NHL doesn't think like that.

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02-27-2013, 08:30 AM
  #954
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This. Can you imagine how angry Detroit would be if QC got a team and they had to move into the new Midwest division after finally getting into the Eastern Conference?

I have to wonder if any relocation to QC was attempted that the Board of Governors would not allow it because of that very reason.

I understand many posters here think QC deserves to be the next city to get a relocated team, but keep in mind the NHL doesn't think like that.
The Wings problem is not Qc, its the players association and the only place available (IMHO) for a member of their league. The league as a whole created this and does not control their divisions anymore.

You'll say they will put the Coyotes in the Key arena? Fine, but I don't agree.

So, if the Yotes leaving PHX, the Wings will probably stay west.

See, majority of hockey markets are east on this continent, well, at least in the US. Wings and Jackets are between.

Also, not sure the west governors smile to the idea of seeing the Wings leaving for east.


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02-27-2013, 08:31 AM
  #955
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
True on the 95-96 re-alignment. Which is why I do not understand why they couldn't just move Winnipeg to the west and either nashville, columbus, or detroit to the southeast. I know the move was late, but they could have adjusted the schedule. It would not have been that hard. Could have just had Winnipeg swap schedules with whichever team was moving east and make adjustments based on building availability. Could have been done in a day or two.
Because it's either Nashville, Columbus, or Detroit. That's a lot of teams. I doubt Nashville would get the call, as the East isn't going to voluntarily vote in a team from a different time zone. Then there's Columbus, who you can't leave by themselves as the only ETZ in the West. Then you have one of the O6 teams that has wanted to be in the East since the Leafs moved, and probably even before that since the conference playoff format was instituted.

The Thrashers going to Winnipeg wasn't just a normal relocation. The Nordiques to Colorado could be done without having to move anyone else. The Whalers to Carolina, North Stars to Dallas, both the same time zone. Jets to Phoenix, west to west. The Thrashers move opened up a whole can of worms, which is clearly not easy to fix.

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02-27-2013, 08:37 AM
  #956
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Because it's either Nashville, Columbus, or Detroit. That's a lot of teams. I doubt Nashville would get the call, as the East isn't going to voluntarily vote in a team from a different time zone. Then there's Columbus, who you can't leave by themselves as the only ETZ in the West. Then you have one of the O6 teams that has wanted to be in the East since the Leafs moved, and probably even before that since the conference playoff format was instituted.

The Thrashers going to Winnipeg wasn't just a normal relocation. The Nordiques to Colorado could be done without having to move anyone else. The Whalers to Carolina, North Stars to Dallas, both the same time zone. Jets to Phoenix, west to west. The Thrashers move opened up a whole can of worms, which is clearly not easy to fix.
All true...but another thing is that realignment discussions didn't just start taking place after the Thrashers move to Winnipeg...there has been ongoing dialogue now for about 5 years. I know for sure that Dallas and Minnesota have been constantly pushing this issue, and have rec'd support from Detroit and Columbus as well. The move to Winnipeg only created the urgency to finally act.

Which is why it's ludicrous for those fans that have been suggesting the "quick and easy" fix to have Winnpeg join the Central and Nashville or Columbus join the the Southeast...that would NEVER have gotten approval when there have been other teams pushing this agenda for years now. They simply wouldn't roll over and accept that proposal.

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02-27-2013, 08:44 AM
  #957
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Originally Posted by MuckOG View Post
All true...but another thing is that realignment discussions didn't just start taking place after the Thrashers move to Winnipeg...there has been ongoing dialogue now for about 5 years. I know for sure that Dallas and Minnesota have been constantly pushing this issue, and have rec'd support from Detroit and Columbus as well. The move to Winnipeg only created the urgency to finally act.
Exactly. The Thrashers move from Atlanta made every issue from the 1998 realignment come up. Detroit saw it's long wanted chance to move east. Columbus never should've been in the West to begin with. The only reason Dallas was in the Pacific was because Vancouver wanted to stay with Edmonton and Calgary. If Phi/Pit must stay together because they can't just be conference rivals, Vancouver should be able to stay with who they want to with the amount of travel they deal with. Minnesota was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

The 98 realignment was flawed, at least in the West, and that one relocation to Winnipeg dug up every bone from the ground.

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02-27-2013, 08:45 AM
  #958
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Because it's either Nashville, Columbus, or Detroit. That's a lot of teams. I doubt Nashville would get the call, as the East isn't going to voluntarily vote in a team from a different time zone. Then there's Columbus, who you can't leave by themselves as the only ETZ in the West. Then you have one of the O6 teams that has wanted to be in the East since the Leafs moved, and probably even before that since the conference playoff format was instituted.

The Thrashers going to Winnipeg wasn't just a normal relocation. The Nordiques to Colorado could be done without having to move anyone else. The Whalers to Carolina, North Stars to Dallas, both the same time zone. Jets to Phoenix, west to west. The Thrashers move opened up a whole can of worms, which is clearly not easy to fix.
It is not rocket-science. By this logic, you give it to Detroit. ETZ team, and has the seniority over Columbus. That is, IF Detroit would want the Southeast. If that seems too impulsive, get the 3 owners together. Figure out who is interested in moving over. Have them present their case. If you can't decide, lottery.

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02-27-2013, 08:48 AM
  #959
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If everybody understood an expansion is coming in 3 years (they state they will rework divisions in 3 years - Seattle will have new arena etc etc), they could put 2 expansion teams west to bring back Detroit east maybe?

Like Seattle and ??? dunno ??

Will the Panthers still be in Sunrise in 3 years?

We could speculate for hours if not days.

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02-27-2013, 08:53 AM
  #960
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Originally Posted by QcBlizzard View Post
If everybody understood an expansion is coming in 3 years (they state they will rework divisions in 3 years - Seattle will have new arena etc etc), they could put 2 expansion teams west to bring back Detroit east maybe?

Like Seattle and ??? dunno ??

Will the Panthers still be in Sunrise in 3 years?

We could speculate for hours if not days.
Don't quite get the Panthers speculation. Not sure of any indicators of them going anywhere. They have a new arena, and are a very successful loss leader for the arena owners at this point. If they can string together a few more successful seasons, the crowds will return.

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02-27-2013, 08:57 AM
  #961
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Originally Posted by QcBlizzard View Post
If everybody understood an expansion is coming in 3 years (they state they will rework divisions in 3 years), they could put 2 expansion teams west to bring back Detroit east maybe?

Like Seattle and ??? dunno ??
That is the speculation, but it is certainly not set in stone. Neither is a team in Quebec, Toronto, Seattle, Portland, Hamilton, Regina, KC, San Diego, Cancun, or Dublin. For the players to ask for a contingency based on potential moves to me, is pre-mature. Even if they do, no guarantee it will stick. Bettman is going to continue to bend over backwards to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix. Atlanta was a different situation. They had nowhere to play. The owners sold, but also owned the arena and didn't WANT the thrashers playing in Phillips. Usually, it is the direct opposite. It is usually the TEAM that wants out of a lease, NOT the arena.

Look at the Islanders. They had been rumored to KC, Quebec for a few years. Even had some exhibition games planned for KC. All of a sudden, Wang reached an agreement with Prokihov (sp?) for the Isles to play in Brooklyn after agreeing to do some renovations to make it ready for hockey. Now, Isles are staying in NY. The arena situation in Phoenix could get fixed this afternoon for all anyone knows. Not saying it will happen, but they are not going anywhere until they have exhausted EVERY and I mean EVERY possibility.

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02-27-2013, 09:01 AM
  #962
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Yes, I also see Florida more probable to move to Quebec and Tampa to stay at their position.
Why does anyone think the Panthers are going to move? The Panthers owner regards the team as something of a "loss leader" for maintaining primary tenant status in the arena, I believe. That gives said owner primary control over the arena and its bookings which are fairly lucrative.

The only franchise at genuine, severe risk of moving in the short term is the Phoenix Coyotes.

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02-27-2013, 09:04 AM
  #963
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Don't quite get the Panthers speculation. Not sure of any indicators of them going anywhere. They have a new arena, and are a very successful loss leader for the arena owners at this point. If they can string together a few more successful seasons, the crowds will return.
Theres no Panthers rumours. Yes, the team have been successfull in the stands in the past. Dunno in the future. Who can?

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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
That is the speculation, but it is certainly not set in stone. Neither is a team in Quebec, Toronto, Seattle, Portland, Hamilton, Regina, KC, San Diego, Cancun, or Dublin. For the players to ask for a contingency based on potential moves to me, is pre-mature. Even if they do, no guarantee it will stick. Bettman is going to continue to bend over backwards to keep the Coyotes in Phoenix. Atlanta was a different situation. They had nowhere to play. The owners sold, but also owned the arena and didn't WANT the thrashers playing in Phillips. Usually, it is the direct opposite. It is usually the TEAM that wants out of a lease, NOT the arena.

Look at the Islanders. They had been rumored to KC, Quebec for a few years. Even had some exhibition games planned for KC. All of a sudden, Wang reached an agreement with Prokihov (sp?) for the Isles to play in Brooklyn after agreeing to do some renovations to make it ready for hockey. Now, Isles are staying in NY. The arena situation in Phoenix could get fixed this afternoon for all anyone knows. Not saying it will happen, but they are not going anywhere until they have exhausted EVERY and I mean EVERY possibility.
I agree Bettman is trying everything he can. I think this is what he is doing. I mean, nobody could say at this moment he did not.

Then, let's watch together what the PA will do in the next weeks.

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02-27-2013, 09:07 AM
  #964
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
It is not rocket-science. By this logic, you give it to Detroit. ETZ team, and has the seniority over Columbus. That is, IF Detroit would want the Southeast. If that seems too impulsive, get the 3 owners together. Figure out who is interested in moving over. Have them present their case. If you can't decide, lottery.
That's one of the reasons Toronto was in the East instead of Columbus. Even though Toronto, like Detroit, could survive quite well in the West. Leaf fans aren't going anywhere. They're just as, if not more dedicated to their team than Detroit fans.

If it was easy, it would be done already. The league would've figured out something better in 1998 if it was easy. It's certainly not rocket science, but it's also not simple.

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02-27-2013, 09:11 AM
  #965
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
That's one of the reasons Toronto was in the East instead of Columbus. Even though Toronto, like Detroit, could survive quite well in the West. Leaf fans aren't going anywhere. They're just as, if not more dedicated to their team than Detroit fans.

If it was easy, it would be done already. The league would've figured out something better in 1998 if it was easy. It's certainly not rocket science, but it's also not simple.
Columbus wasn't in the league in 1998. Atlanta came in 99, and the Southeast only had 4 teams so it was an easy addition. Minnesota and Columbus entered the league in 2000. The Central had 4 teams as did the Northwest, so it just made sense to move them into their divisions.

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02-27-2013, 09:16 AM
  #966
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I don't see why the league has to kowtow to the Red Wings. They are a draw and the west needs that. Its better for the league as a whole to have Detroit in the west and I don't see why we have to break the playoffs because they are being whinny.

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02-27-2013, 09:19 AM
  #967
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I don't see why the league has to kowtow to the Red Wings. They are a draw and the west needs that. Its better for the league as a whole to have Detroit in the west and I don't see why we have to break the playoffs because they are being whinny.
Detroit might be the most vocal about realignment, but a lot of the teams in the CTZ don't like the current alignment either.

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02-27-2013, 09:21 AM
  #968
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I know this is a little off the wall, but I'd like to take the April regular-season games and convert them into playoff games.

Something like this:

4 conferences x 8 teams each (post-expansion)

Conference winners get a bye for the play-in round

Play-in round consists of the NEXT 6 teams per conference, making a total of 28 teams in the playoff bracket and 4 out (those are your lottery teams).

Play-in is a seven-game series, H-A-H-A-H-A-H, against conference opponents.

After the play-in, re-seed and play a regular 16-team bracket. First two rounds against conference opponents, then a Final Four based on normal seeding.

It's slightly convoluted, but the basic idea is you're just replacing a few regular season games with playoff games. Only 4 teams would actually lose home dates, and those teams are probably drawing flies at that point anyway. The other 28 teams would technically shorten their regular-season schedule, but would get at least 2 more playoff home dates (bearing in mind that 12 of those teams would have 0 playoff games under the current system) and would significantly increase the number of "rivalry" games going forward.

Just a crazy thought I made up on the fly.

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02-27-2013, 09:22 AM
  #969
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Detroit might be the most vocal about realignment, but a lot of the teams in the CTZ don't like the current alignment either.
I get we need some shuffling around for the divisions in the West but it seems like instead of hurting one team's feelings the league is bending over backwards to make a convoluted system instead.

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02-27-2013, 09:26 AM
  #970
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Detroit wasn't the only team with an issue.

Winnipeg, Minnesota, Dallas, Columbus and others were not happy with the current alignment.

I don't think the new alignment is convoluted at all. Outside of maybe swapping Florida and Tampa with Columbus and Carolina, I think it works out pretty well for everyone.

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02-27-2013, 09:36 AM
  #971
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The whole wild card thing seems useless. its not like they have resolved the issue about it being easier to make the playoffs in the west vs the east.

Just leave it at top four in each division.

I think they just want to get people used to the wildcard name for when they add the wildcard play in round.

Also not a fan of the schedule matrix. Should be weighted heavier to divisional games. I wouldn't even bother having that extra game against intra conference opponents.


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02-27-2013, 09:37 AM
  #972
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Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Columbus wasn't in the league in 1998. Atlanta came in 99, and the Southeast only had 4 teams so it was an easy addition. Minnesota and Columbus entered the league in 2000. The Central had 4 teams as did the Northwest, so it just made sense to move them into their divisions.
The league knew Columbus was going to have a team when they realigned in 1998. They knew about Atlanta and Minnesota too. That's why the SE, Central, and NW had 4 teams for a year or two.

The East was great, even the 3 relatively new expansion teams and the relocated Whalers were off in their own little division that nobody respects.

The West was a mess from day 1, and can't even really be called the West, as the entire conference spans all 4 time zones.

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02-27-2013, 09:48 AM
  #973
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So with a more firm proposal in hand, let's at least compare current divisional and scheduling business to the new proposal:

LA, ANA, SJ now
41 home
13 Eastern
11 Central
6 Mountain
3 Arizona
8 Pacific

Vancouver now
41 home
13 Eastern
11 Central
9 Mountain
2 Arizona
6 Pacific

Phoenix now
41 home
13 Eastern
11 Central
6 Mountain
11 Pacific

Calgary/Edmonton now
41 home
13 Eastern
11 Central
6 Mountain
2 Arizona
9 Pacific

LA, ANA, SJ, PHX, VAN, EDM, CGY proposed
41 home
16 Eastern
9 Central
17 Mountain/Ariz/Pacific (all divisional)

It doesn't look as if the proposed Pacific Division's schedule has changed all that much, other than the fact they get everyone else in their building.

Colorado now
41 home
13 Eastern
11 Central
6 Mountain
2 Arizona
9 Pacific

Minnesota now
41 home
13 Eastern
8 Central
9 Mountain
2 Arizona
9 Pacific

Dallas now
41 home
13 Eastern
8 Central
6 Mountain
3 Arizona
11 Pacific

Winnipeg now
41 home
32 Eastern
9 Central/Mountain/Arizona Pacific

Chicago, St. Louis, Nashville now
41 home
15 Eastern
10 Central
6 Mountain
2 Arizona
8 Pacific

CHI/COL/DAL/MIN/NSH/STL/WPG proposed
41 home
16 Eastern
~14 Central (all divisional)
~11 Pacific/Arizona/Mountain

The Midwest Division trades out a chunk of their games west of them, offset by a few games more in the Eastern Conference and a few more in division.

Detroit and Columbus now
41 home
12 Eastern
13 Central
6 Mountain
2 Arizona
8 Pacific

Eastern Conference minus Winnipeg now
41 home
30 (or 29 for SE) Eastern
2 (or 3 for SE) Winnipeg
9 Central/Mountain/Arizona/Pacific

Proposed Eastern Conference
41 home
4 Pacific
1 Arizona
3 Mountain
6 Central
27 Eastern

The proposed Eastern Conference schedule gets to have them feel a little bit more pain that the rest of the League has felt for the past fifteen years, but still nearly not as much as the proposed Western Conference. This is a big improvement for the Red Wings and Blue Jackets.

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02-27-2013, 09:58 AM
  #974
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That's one of the reasons Toronto was in the East instead of Columbus. Even though Toronto, like Detroit, could survive quite well in the West. Leaf fans aren't going anywhere. They're just as, if not more dedicated to their team than Detroit fans.

If it was easy, it would be done already. The league would've figured out something better in 1998 if it was easy. It's certainly not rocket science, but it's also not simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by patnyrnyg View Post
Columbus wasn't in the league in 1998. Atlanta came in 99, and the Southeast only had 4 teams so it was an easy addition. Minnesota and Columbus entered the league in 2000. The Central had 4 teams as did the Northwest, so it just made sense to move them into their divisions.
Think about exactly where we are today, with a firm proposal in hand that will be voted on by both the NHLPA and the NHL BoG...

In June 1997, when the league added the four teams, the proposal in hand was similar to the structure we've had for the past fifteen years. The only difference is that Columbus was to be placed in the Northeast until either 2004 or until they made the playoffs, and Toronto would have stayed in the Central. MLSE President Ken Dryden lobbied really hard and in December 1997, when the realignment vote came, the Leafs were switched at that moment for Columbus.

So keep in mind that although the four teams that were added in 1997 over the course of three years, the alignment for those teams was already set in stone as of December 1997.

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02-27-2013, 09:59 AM
  #975
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The whole wild card thing seems useless. its not like they have resolved the issue about it being easier to make the playoffs in the west vs the east.

Just leave it at top four in each division.

I think they just want to get people used to the wildcard make four when they add the wildcard play in round.

Also not a fan of the schedule matrix. Should be weighted heavier to divisional games. I wouldn't even bother having that extra game against intra conference opponents.
Actually it does increase your chances of making the playoffs somewhat as you can now have 5 in one of the 8 team divisions make it so instead of only 4 in 8, you now have 8 in 16, but for the last two spots you're only competing against 10 of the teams (since the other 6 spots are locked).

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