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Old
02-27-2013, 12:10 PM
  #51
ImpressedDAHagent
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Top 5 for me. I like barkov and lindholm enough that its not too much of a concern.

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02-27-2013, 12:11 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Drafting in the Top 3, THIS YEAR, is probably the most important result that can come from this year.

Nothing would have a bigger impact on the franchise going forward.
I agree, as much as it sucks to watch this team lose; the impact in the future could be massive. It's not like we will be finishing bottom 3 next year (i hope). If there is a time to do this it's on a half season with some very promising prospects to be drafted.

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02-27-2013, 12:14 PM
  #53
Der Jaeger
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Originally Posted by RazielMoshman View Post
1 elite player doesn't make a team. A good team that work well together can make a cup though (imho). I think we do need a better second line and we need our youth to keep developing but 1 top 3 overall pick will not help us. It's a pot luck shot that you'll get a stud, media attention and maybe a leader in the future. Our last draft worked wonders for us but I'll always say a good, deep draft with multiple NHL level players who can help and several levels beats 1 eilte player from a crap overall draft.

Remember Miller was a 5th rounder who led the USA to a silver medal and got MVP honors.
One elite player doesn't make a team, but he can sure help. These are roughly the lines this season.

Vanek - Hodgson - Pominville line. Seeing best defensive match ups.
Foligno - Ennis - Stafford line. No longer getting sheltered minutes and struggling.
Ott - Grigorenko - Gerbe line. Getting sheltered minutes but not getting much done.

Add in MacKinnon and shuffle up.

Foligno - MacKinnon - Stafford line. Two-way line and faces top defenders.
Vanek - Hodgson - Pominville line. Not getting sheltered but getting easier minutes.
Ennis - Grigorenko - Ott line. Ennis back to sheltered minutes, Grigorenko gets a talented winger.

Flip the top two lines if you want, either way, you get offensive talent on the second line.

There's a big difference between the matchups for that first group of lines, and the second group of lines.

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02-27-2013, 12:18 PM
  #54
joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
One elite player doesn't make a team, but he can sure help. These are roughly the lines this season.

Vanek - Hodgson - Pominville line. Seeing best defensive match ups.
Foligno - Ennis - Stafford line. No longer getting sheltered minutes and struggling.
Ott - Grigorenko - Gerbe line. Getting sheltered minutes but not getting much done.

Add in MacKinnon and shuffle up.

Foligno - MacKinnon - Stafford line. Two-way line and faces top defenders.
Vanek - Hodgson - Pominville line. Not getting sheltered but getting easier minutes.
Ennis - Grigorenko - Ott line. Ennis back to sheltered minutes, Grigorenko gets a talented winger.

Flip the top two lines if you want, either way, you get offensive talent on the second line.

There's a big difference between the matchups for that first group of lines, and the second group of lines.
Isn't that getting WAY ahead of yourself. Two players struggling badly and a 18 year old rookie are going to be able to handle all that?

Regardless of who we draft, a trade for a defensive/two way top 6 center or at least a 2/3 defensive center is a must. We can't just throw a bunch of kids out at center and expect them to develop

EDIT: also who the top defenders from other teams go up against is determined by the other team's coach not ours. I highly doubt teams will be worried about that line over VHP.


Last edited by joshjull: 02-27-2013 at 12:27 PM.
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Old
02-27-2013, 12:21 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Isn't that getting WAY ahead of yourself. Two players struggling badly and a 18 year old rookie are going to be able to handle all that?
Yeah, if anything, that's the line getting sheltered minutes.

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Old
02-27-2013, 12:30 PM
  #56
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I don't understand how anyone can root for their team to lose.

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02-27-2013, 12:35 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by dire wolf View Post
I don't understand how anyone can root for their team to lose.
Then this is definitely not going to be your thread.

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02-27-2013, 12:35 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by dire wolf View Post
I don't understand how anyone can root for their team to lose.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHq-oSTUoaY

That's how.

(edit: don't know how to embed properly)

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Old
02-27-2013, 12:43 PM
  #59
cybresabre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBriere48 View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHq-oSTUoaY

That's how.

(edit: don't know how to embed properly)

test

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Old
02-27-2013, 12:45 PM
  #60
TheWook
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IF we draft Mackinnon then giving up what it takes to get O`Reilly would be alot easier to stomach, assuming hes still available then. We could build our forwards around Mac/ROR/Hodgson.

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:10 PM
  #61
Der Jaeger
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Isn't that getting WAY ahead of yourself. Two players struggling badly and a 18 year old rookie are going to be able to handle all that?
It's a concept. Which is why I wrote this, second line from the bottom.

Quote:
Flip the top two lines if you want, either way, you get offensive talent on the second line.
Which means VHP could still handle the top line duties if FMS can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Regardless of who we draft, a trade for a defensive/two way top 6 center or at least a 2/3 defensive center is a must. We can't just throw a bunch of kids out at center and expect them to develop
Where does this center fit? The whole idea started with getting MacKinnon.... who doesn't play for Buffalo then? Hodgson? Grigorenko? Do you move MacKinnon to RW?

Besides, top centers of MacKinnon's ilk have a history of doing well their first year in the NHL, if not their second. Stamkos played right after being drafted and scored 23-23-46 as a 2C. Tavares did the same and scored 24-30-54 as their 1C. Jordan Staal did the same and scored 29-13-42 playing a two-way game as their 3C. Duchene the same, 24-31-55 as their 2C. RNH the same, 18-34-52 as their 2C. I won't count Crosby because he went straight in the league after being drafted and went nuts... he's clearly the outlier.

Spezza, Malkin, Toews, and Backstrom took a year... and aside from Spezza, they did well once arriving and shouldered a heavy workload. The only two highly regarded centers recently drafted that came to the NHL immediately after being drafted and didn't shoulder a huge load immediately are Eric Staal and Seguin. Staal assumed his role a year later, and Seguin was protected at LW his first year before contributing to the levels expected of a highly drafted center.

So, recent history suggests that a highly regarded center like MacKinnon can come right in and be effective scoring 1C or 2C, either in 2013-2014 or in 2015.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
EDIT: also who the top defenders from other teams go up against is determined by the other team's coach not ours. I highly doubt teams will be worried about that line over VHP.
It's a concept. I know what you wrote is how it works. Thanks.


Last edited by Der Jaeger: 02-27-2013 at 01:33 PM.
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Old
02-27-2013, 01:12 PM
  #62
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Drouin has some ridiculous passes in that highlight video of MacKinnon, if we could get either of them..I would be ecstatic. Of course there is also Jones as well, but defencemen take awhile to develop and have more risk of busting.

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:19 PM
  #63
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I updated my post on the first page but since the Avs in 2001, not a single team has won without a top 3 pick. The Sabres two leading scorers (Vanek, Hodgson), are the only top 10 picks on the team.

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02-27-2013, 01:20 PM
  #64
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If we were able to land Mackinnon, our lines for the foreseeable future look very good. Assuming we re-sign vanek and pommer, our lines in the future are:

Vanek - MacKinnon - Pominville
Armia - Hodgeson - Foligno
Stafford - Grigorenko - Ennis
Kaleta - Girgenson - Ott


This gives us a LOT of room to make a deal, or even let one of vanek/pommer walk. Personally, if we get Mackinnon, I look into make a deal for ROR. Grigorenko + Stafford for ROR. Add picks into the mix if needed. (This is after the draft) Then our lines going into the future are:

Vanek - MacKinnon - Ennis
Armia - Hodgeson - Pominville
Foligno - ROR - Ott
Kaleta - Girgs - Leino

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:25 PM
  #65
Stop Winnin
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<-----

I know that one player does not make a difference but this franchise the way it is will never win anything. Adding Mackinnon gives us some flexibility to trade some forwards for some help defensively or perhaps to obtain RoR.

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:32 PM
  #66
HiddenInLight
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Originally Posted by Stop Winnin View Post
<-----

I know that one player does not make a difference but this franchise the way it is will never win anything. Adding Mackinnon gives us some flexibility to trade some forwards for some help defensively or perhaps to obtain RoR.
Which also helps defensively

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02-27-2013, 01:34 PM
  #67
Layne Staley
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As long as we get a top 4 pick I'll be happy. Mackinnon, Jones, Drouin or Barkov, all 4 are legit franchise player prospects.If by miracle we do get the #1 pick, could you imagine our center depth?!?

Mackinnon
Grigorenko
Hodgson
Girgensons
And then Ennis moved back to LW

We would go from the worst center core in the league to possibly the best (or atleast deepest) in a mere two seasons. If we draft Mackinnon, that would make Hodgson and Girgs are 3rd and 4th Line centers,not to mention Ennis who could move back to center from his LW spot.

This is the perfect season to tank and finish last, it's a shortened season and practically a throw away one for the Sabres as they practically are out of it/have no chance. Don't **** this up Sabres, I will be furious if we finish with anything other then a top 4 pick.

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:38 PM
  #68
Der Jaeger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiddenInLight View Post
If we were able to land Mackinnon, our lines for the foreseeable future look very good. Assuming we re-sign vanek and pommer, our lines in the future are:

Vanek - MacKinnon - Pominville
Armia - Hodgeson - Foligno
Stafford - Grigorenko - Ennis
Kaleta - Girgenson - Ott


This gives us a LOT of room to make a deal, or even let one of vanek/pommer walk. Personally, if we get Mackinnon, I look into make a deal for ROR. Grigorenko + Stafford for ROR. Add picks into the mix if needed. (This is after the draft) Then our lines going into the future are:

Vanek - MacKinnon - Ennis
Armia - Hodgeson - Pominville
Foligno - ROR - Ott
Kaleta - Girgs - Leino
That's what I'm thinking. If Buffalo gets MacKinnon, it might be time to reconsider moving a center. Grigorenko to Colorado for O'Reilly would balance the centers out in terms of roles.

Vanek - Hodgson - Pominville
Foligno - O'Reilly - Ott
Ennis - MacKinnon - Stafford

Shuffle how you'd like. Replace Vanek and Pominville with Girgensons and Armia when it's time, and a Stafford trade is still possible.

The speed of that third line. . . they'd come over the boards shot out of a cannon.

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:40 PM
  #69
TehDoak
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I think as a fan, you can become indifferent to wins/losses.

However, if you want to root to lose, Columbus isn't too far. You can build a championship team without bottoming out. You really can. Look at Detroit, look at Anaheim in 07. Top picks don't guarantee success either.

Look at Edmonton, Columbus, Washington. All teams loaded with top 5 picks. Look at the Philadelphia Flyers, a team whose situation in 2006-07 mirrors ours. Good coach losses the team, gets canned, team goes into tailspin. Gets 2nd overall pick....gets a good player in JVR, but hardly a franchise guy.

Cups aren't won by hording top 5 picks. Cups are won by careful planning, finding someone who can build a team that will succeed in playoffs, and a bit of luck.

I'm very comfortable with our prospect pool at this point. Yes, I want more good players in there. We've got a good group of young players who are learning still. Hodgson, Ennis, Foligno, Myers. We've got a good stable of prospects who are coming in Grigerenko, Armia, Pysyk, Girgensons, Marakov.

You know what doesn't help players develop, though? Losing. Losing erodes confidence, is demoralizing, and creates a bad environment. It doesn't help anything or anyone.

We aren't a very good team currently. Our veteran group isn't good enough to carry the younger guys right now. We are going to lose our fair share of games. And maybe it is time to sell off some veteran guys, especially if they don't want to suffer through the rebuild. And that's fine. But you know what I'll never do? Root for the team to lose a game. It's stupid. Picking a few picks higher isn't a guarantee of anything. If you want to see a team lose, Columbus is only a few hours away. The seats are cheaper and the fans are used to it.

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:48 PM
  #70
Layne Staley
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post

Cups aren't won by hording top 5 picks. Cups are won by careful planning, finding someone who can build a team that will succeed in playoffs, and a bit of luck.
Pittsburgh:

Crosby 1st overall
Malkin 2nd overall
Fleury 1st overall
Whitney 5th overall

They had a top 5 pick from 02-05. I'll gladly take 2-3 years of rebuilding to become the leagues best team with the 2 best forwards in the league over finishing 9th or 10th 3 years in a row

Every cup winning team in recent history has had a player lead them who was a recent top 5 draft pick. I'll take missing the playoffs badly and getting a Malkin type over missing the playoffs barely and get 4 Drew Stafford type players in a row.

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:54 PM
  #71
tsujimoto74
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IF we draft Mackinnon then giving up what it takes to get O`Reilly would be alot easier to stomach, assuming hes still available then. We could build our forwards around Mac/ROR/Hodgson.
Yes please. Would comfortably free up our ability to use one of our young Cs as trade bait to get ROR here.

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:54 PM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
I think as a fan, you can become indifferent to wins/losses.

However, if you want to root to lose, Columbus isn't too far. You can build a championship team without bottoming out. You really can. Look at Detroit, look at Anaheim in 07. Top picks don't guarantee success either.

Look at Edmonton, Columbus, Washington. All teams loaded with top 5 picks. Look at the Philadelphia Flyers, a team whose situation in 2006-07 mirrors ours. Good coach losses the team, gets canned, team goes into tailspin. Gets 2nd overall pick....gets a good player in JVR, but hardly a franchise guy.

Cups aren't won by hording top 5 picks. Cups are won by careful planning, finding someone who can build a team that will succeed in playoffs, and a bit of luck.

I'm very comfortable with our prospect pool at this point. Yes, I want more good players in there. We've got a good group of young players who are learning still. Hodgson, Ennis, Foligno, Myers. We've got a good stable of prospects who are coming in Grigerenko, Armia, Pysyk, Girgensons, Marakov.

You know what doesn't help players develop, though? Losing. Losing erodes confidence, is demoralizing, and creates a bad environment. It doesn't help anything or anyone.

We aren't a very good team currently. Our veteran group isn't good enough to carry the younger guys right now. We are going to lose our fair share of games. And maybe it is time to sell off some veteran guys, especially if they don't want to suffer through the rebuild. And that's fine. But you know what I'll never do? Root for the team to lose a game. It's stupid. Picking a few picks higher isn't a guarantee of anything. If you want to see a team lose, Columbus is only a few hours away. The seats are cheaper and the fans are used to it.
Personally I like to take a middle ground in this type of situation. If the team starts winning and looking like the team they were supposed to be according to many of the rankings, great. If the team bottoms out, and ends up with a top 3-5 pick, thats a silver lining. Either outcome is good. The one thing I DONT want to see is another middle of the pack finish. It doesn't help us at all. Until all is said and done, I wont root for this team to lose, but I will have fun discussing the door the opens up if that ends up happening.

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:55 PM
  #73
Jame
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
I think as a fan, you can become indifferent to wins/losses.

However, if you want to root to lose, Columbus isn't too far. You can build a championship team without bottoming out. You really can. Look at Detroit, look at Anaheim in 07. Top picks don't guarantee success either.
wow, 2 whole examples?

As someone pointed out earlier... cups are won with elite talent... and the best way to acquire elite talent is at the top of the draft.

Quote:
Look at Edmonton, Columbus, Washington. All teams loaded with top 5 picks. Look at the Philadelphia Flyers, a team whose situation in 2006-07 mirrors ours. Good coach losses the team, gets canned, team goes into tailspin. Gets 2nd overall pick....gets a good player in JVR, but hardly a franchise guy.
Look at LA, Chicago, Boston, etc...

Philly is a terrible comparison. That team has the clout to bring in free agents like Briere, Hartnell, Timmonen, etc.

Quote:
Cups aren't won by hording top 5 picks. Cups are won by careful planning, finding someone who can build a team that will succeed in playoffs, and a bit of luck.
No one is talking about hording top 5 picks. This one of the 2 myths that the " I don't want to lose" crowd constantly uses as a straw man.

No one is saying lets horde top 5 picks for the next 5 years
No one is saying that being bad, automatically leads to being good

Quote:
I'm very comfortable with our prospect pool at this point. Yes, I want more good players in there. We've got a good group of young players who are learning still. Hodgson, Ennis, Foligno, Myers. We've got a good stable of prospects who are coming in Grigerenko, Armia, Pysyk, Girgensons, Marakov.
There are no Staal's or Toews in this pipe. There are no Doughty's our Petriangelo's. There are no Nuges or Couturier's even.

I'm not comfortable with our prospect pool at all. I'm glad it's not barren anymore.. but seriously, stop drinking the kool aid. Have we learned nothing from FES ? Or the "i wouldn't trade Myers for Malkin" nonsens....


Quote:
You know what doesn't help players develop, though? Losing. Losing erodes confidence, is demoralizing, and creates a bad environment. It doesn't help anything or anyone.
Weird since you used Philly as an example (2007).

We aren't a very good team currently. Our veteran group isn't good enough to carry the younger guys right now. We are going to lose our fair share of games. And maybe it is time to sell off some veteran guys, especially if they don't want to suffer through the rebuild. And that's fine. But you know what I'll never do? Root for the team to lose a game. It's stupid. Picking a few picks higher isn't a guarantee of anything. If you want to see a team lose, Columbus is only a few hours away. The seats are cheaper and the fans are used to it.[/QUOTE]

But, if we were drafting 7th, and we had a chance to move up and get Drouin at 3rd at the cost of our 2nd round pick... you would do it.

So, give up assets to get better player... No problem
But, Rooting to get that draft pick for free... UNACCEPTABLE

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:57 PM
  #74
Der Jaeger
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Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
You can build a championship team without bottoming out. You really can. Look at Detroit, look at Anaheim in 07. Top picks don't guarantee success either.
It's possible to build without bottoming out. But LA, Chicago, and Pittsburgh did bottom out and won a Cup with the players they picked. Even the Red Wings, who rebuilt off lower picks, began their rebuild in the early 1980s by bottoming out. They got Yzerman out of that situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TehDoak View Post
Cups aren't won by hording top 5 picks. Cups are won by careful planning, finding someone who can build a team that will succeed in playoffs, and a bit of luck.
Pittsburgh might think otherwise.

Sure, every method to rebuild has risks. There's no sure thing. But in Buffalo's current situation, there's nothing wrong with bottoming out and getting a game breaker. Step backwards to go forwards.

There's also nothing wrong with being a Sabres fan and wanting that to happen.

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02-27-2013, 02:00 PM
  #75
joshjull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Jaeger View Post
It's possible to build without bottoming out. But LA, Chicago, and Pittsburgh did bottom out and won a Cup with the players they picked. Even the Red Wings, who rebuilt off lower picks, began their rebuild in the early 1980s by bottoming out. They got Yzerman out of that situation.



Pittsburgh might think otherwise.

Sure, every method to rebuild has risks. There's no sure thing. But in Buffalo's current situation, there's nothing wrong with bottoming out and getting a game breaker. Step backwards to go forwards.

There's also nothing wrong with being a Sabres fan and wanting that to happen.
They are still a terrible example.

They lucked into Crosby, who is the lynchpin of their success.

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