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Old
02-27-2013, 12:35 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Vetran, high-priced, leaders should NOT get "the benefit of the doubt".

That's a slippery slope toward the 98-2004 vacation resort Rangers.

But, if that's how you like to run teams, more power to you.

Rookies are expected to be inconsistent. They need to be able to play through it.

Your leaders should be carrying the team. Not the rookies.

There is NO excuse for the garbage play of Richards and Gaborik.
Assuming your best players can rebound and actually be your best players is a slippery slope toward the dark ages? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Rookies are expected to be inconsistent, but being inconsistent implies that you actually show some variance in your sample. Kreider has actually shown consistently that he's not ready for the NHL. At least Miller has shown he can create some offense. Kreider has done nothing. I'm not expecting him to carry the team, or even be a consistent factor in the play. I just want the kid to show that he belongs. He hasn't done that this season.

If you want to spoon-feed time to rookies who haven't earned it, then "more power to you".

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02-27-2013, 12:35 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
But giving him more minutes and putting him into more difficult situations will fix all of this, apparently.
Yes. That's how players develop. If he gets the minutes in the Rangers or Hartford lineup, that's an entirely different story.

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02-27-2013, 12:38 PM
  #128
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Kreider has 5 shots in a dozen games and that backcheck glidefest last night was all I needed to see to seal the deal for me. He doesnt get what it takes to play on this team or this coach, right now. he doesn't deserve a spot.
1. The glidefest was Stepan messing up, not Kreider
2. Kreider is not the worst winger on our team, others should be sratched before him
3. Blaming Kreider for not creating enough while being put on the ice with guys like Mashinter, Bickel, Powe and Asham is ridiculous

Hagelin only started to perform when he was brought into the Nash-line. Stepan's passing is the right weapon for Hagelin. I feel it would be better for both Richards and Kreider if they are together on 1 line. Obviously, the Richards-Gaborik combo doesn't work and neither does the Kreider-grinder philosophy of Torts.

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02-27-2013, 12:38 PM
  #129
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Anyone ever see 'The Wanderers' ? "Leave the kid alone." Comes to mind.....

I'm surprised that more people don't recognize that it's his first year Pro, but also in life being away from his comfort zone, New England. NYC and playing for the Ranger's is a world away from what he's known. And why not just throw in the fact of no training camp and an injury right out of the gate.

So he's off to a poor start, it would not be so noticeable if the guys ahead of him were doing their jobs.

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02-27-2013, 12:41 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Assuming your best players can rebound and actually be your best players is a slippery slope toward the dark ages? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Rookies are expected to be inconsistent, but being inconsistent implies that you actually show some variance in your sample. Kreider has actually shown consistently that he's not ready for the NHL. At least Miller has shown he can create some offense. Kreider has done nothing. I'm not expecting him to carry the team, or even be a consistent factor in the play. I just want the kid to show that he belongs. He hasn't done that this season.

If you want to spoon-feed time to rookies who haven't earned it, then "more power to you".
We are the minority, but I'm with you 100%. I've yet to see Kreider take advantage of the wheels he has. I understand the whole "his offensive game is based on playing with talent" argument. I really do. But my issue has NOTHING to do with his offense. That hooking penalty last night was completely lazy and unnecessary. He was in position, and simply had to skate with Jokinen. The shift where Winnipeg was pressuring, and Kreider was running around the defensive zone, too.

He's not ready. At all.

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02-27-2013, 12:46 PM
  #131
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I will respectfully disagree with you. Chris Glider was lazy on his backcheck and took a penalty as result of it. He has not made the case for himself to be promoted or given more Ice time.

Miller has twice the amount of shots Kreider has in almost he same amount of games. That is because he is involved. Kreider is not involved or engaged.

I dont care who he is playing with, you make your own bones as a pro and so far this season Kreider doesnt look like he is ready for the NHL.

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Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
1. The glidefest was Stepan messing up, not Kreider
2. Kreider is not the worst winger on our team, others should be sratched before him
3. Blaming Kreider for not creating enough while being put on the ice with guys like Mashinter, Bickel, Powe and Asham is ridiculous

Hagelin only started to perform when he was brought into the Nash-line. Stepan's passing is the right weapon for Hagelin. I feel it would be better for both Richards and Kreider if they are together on 1 line. Obviously, the Richards-Gaborik combo doesn't work and neither does the Kreider-grinder philosophy of Torts.

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02-27-2013, 12:48 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
1. The glidefest was Stepan messing up, not Kreider
2. Kreider is not the worst winger on our team, others should be sratched before him
3. Blaming Kreider for not creating enough while being put on the ice with guys like Mashinter, Bickel, Powe and Asham is ridiculous

Hagelin only started to perform when he was brought into the Nash-line. Stepan's passing is the right weapon for Hagelin. I feel it would be better for both Richards and Kreider if they are together on 1 line. Obviously, the Richards-Gaborik combo doesn't work and neither does the Kreider-grinder philosophy of Torts.
I wish people would actually understand this. You can't expect Kreider to perform like a 1st/2nd liner in the 3rd or 4th line.

If people think that he's not earned his spot in the first, fine. I get that. Send his ass to Hartford then, and ASAP. Don't know about you guys, but I'd like to actually see this guy develop. But he isn't going to develop by playing 4 minutes per game.

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02-27-2013, 12:52 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Slick Rick 61 View Post
We are the minority, but I'm with you 100%. I've yet to see Kreider take advantage of the wheels he has. I understand the whole "his offensive game is based on playing with talent" argument. I really do. But my issue has NOTHING to do with his offense. That hooking penalty last night was completely lazy and unnecessary. He was in position, and simply had to skate with Jokinen. The shift where Winnipeg was pressuring, and Kreider was running around the defensive zone, too.

He's not ready. At all.
Hopefully one day people will realize that this will be a good thing for Kreider's development. Torts is chomping at the bit to send this kid down and get more minutes, but he cant do it because of the injuries.

The people that are pining not only for Kreider to stay up, but to get more minutes on the top lines are completely out to lunch. Unless you're a top notch goal scorer, players need to have a complete game to compete in the NHL night in and night out. All this whining about putting Kreider on the top line so his offense can shine is useless if he continues to make mistake after mistake on the defensive side of the puck. It would actually cheat his development more than anything.

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02-27-2013, 12:53 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by vstk View Post
I wish people would actually understand this. You can't expect Kreider to perform like a 1st/2nd liner in the 3rd or 4th line.

If people think that he's not earned his spot in the first, fine. I get that. Send his ass to Hartford then, and ASAP. Don't know about you guys, but I'd like to actually see this guy develop. But he isn't going to develop by playing 4 minutes per game.
What choice does Tortorella have? Kreider is only up because of injuries. You think Torts enjoys playing his top prospect 4 minutes a night?

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02-27-2013, 12:54 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Bluenote13 View Post
Anyone ever see 'The Wanderers' ? "Leave the kid alone." Comes to mind.....

I'm surprised that more people don't recognize that it's his first year Pro, but also in life being away from his comfort zone, New England. NYC and playing for the Ranger's is a world away from what he's known. And why not just throw in the fact of no training camp and an injury right out of the gate.

So he's off to a poor start, it would not be so noticeable if the guys ahead of him were doing their jobs.
The Wanderers is a great movie and that statement uttered by Perry is great advice regarding Kreider.
Too bad Torts will never take that advice.

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02-27-2013, 12:54 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
It would actually cheat his development more than anything.
Because players develop by sitting 56 minutes on the bench and playing with the likes of Bickel and Mashinter? That's how you see "player development"?

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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
What choice does Tortorella have? Kreider is only up because of injuries. You think Torts enjoys playing his top prospect 4 minutes a night?
You would think we'd have other guys to fill up the 4th line spot, even with the injuries.

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02-27-2013, 12:55 PM
  #137
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At this point I just want them to do what's best for the kid. Right now he seems to be in purgatory

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02-27-2013, 12:56 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Assuming your best players can rebound and actually be your best players is a slippery slope toward the dark ages? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Rookies are expected to be inconsistent, but being inconsistent implies that you actually show some variance in your sample. Kreider has actually shown consistently that he's not ready for the NHL. At least Miller has shown he can create some offense. Kreider has done nothing. I'm not expecting him to carry the team, or even be a consistent factor in the play. I just want the kid to show that he belongs. He hasn't done that this season.

If you want to spoon-feed time to rookies who haven't earned it, then "more power to you".
I don't call 10:22 ATOI mostly with bottom six players a real chance.

Miller and Kreider are two different kinds of players. I talked at length about what each bring since BEFORE they were drafted.

I knew Miller would be fine because of his physical and polished game.

While Kreider certainly isn't afraid to use his body, and while he certainly isn't an unintelligent player, he is NOT a "heady" player. He is the kind of player that plays on his instincts. He is an offensive player. He can not possibly be expected to play a style of game that he never played before in his life, 100% to perfection, 11 regular season games into his NHL career.

Here's a fact. Kreider is being over coached. He is not getting time in an offensive role, with the team's better offensive players, aside from ONE game with Richards. It wasn't a full game, either. Not one shift with Nash. Not with Stepan. Not with Hagelin.

Brian Boyle, Taylor Pyatt, Jeff Halpern, Brandon Mashinter, Aaron Asham, J.T. Miller, Darroll Powe. These have been his linemates.

Total time on the power play?

You expect to see an offensive player develop in a role unsuited for his style of play.

Again, coach's job is to maximize everyone's ability.

You don't take a java script engineer and ask him to be a graphic designer with zero design experience.

If he were given a shot with Nash, who would open up a TON of space for Kreider, and get him the puck around the net, and Kreider still didn't play well at all. Then we could be having this discussion.

The veteran leadership should ALWAYS be more accountable. More expectation = less accountability? Less expectation = more accountability?

What's backwards thinking now?

If Richards and Gaborik were doing their job, this wouldn't be such an issue. Kreider could ride shot gun with one of the big three and his mistakes wouldn't be under such a microscope.

Two guys earning 14 million on the cap have done nothing and suddenly your support cast is exposed.

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02-27-2013, 12:58 PM
  #139
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Because players develop by sitting 56 minutes on the bench and playing with the likes of Bickel and Mashinter? That's how you see "player development"?
What? If you had read what I wrote, I think its pretty clear I'd like him playing 20 minutes a night in the AHL. And just as soon as the forward corp gets healthy, that will be what happens.

But if my only choice is to play Kreider 4 minutes a night in the NHL instead of 20, then Ill go with the 4 minutes for now. I fail to see how some posters have the chutzpah to declare that Kreider will be better off playing 20 minutes on the top line right now - when, in reality, the much more feasible outcome is that he'll just continue to make the same mistakes - only more of them.

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02-27-2013, 12:59 PM
  #140
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I wish people would actually understand this. You can't expect Kreider to perform like a 1st/2nd liner in the 3rd or 4th line.

If people think that he's not earned his spot in the first, fine. I get that. Send his ass to Hartford then, and ASAP. Don't know about you guys, but I'd like to actually see this guy develop. But he isn't going to develop by playing 4 minutes per game.
Agree.

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02-27-2013, 01:00 PM
  #141
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What? If you had read what I wrote, I think its pretty clear I'd like him playing 20 minutes a night in the AHL. And just as soon as the forward corp gets healthy, that will be what happens.
Why not send his ass down to Hartford to play 20 minutes and get Ferriero to play in the 4th line? You really think Kreider is the only guy in the Rangers system who is capable of playing 4 minutes dumb and chase in the 4th line?

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02-27-2013, 01:00 PM
  #142
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Kreider needs to play. Gernander said Kreider is NHL ready a few weeks ago when Kreider was sent down and then called up. Gernander said Kreider is NHL ready. Rangers brass brought Kreider up when the lockout ended. They think he is ready. Does Torts think Kreider is ready? These disputes between management and the coach ends up with the coach getting fired.

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Play got hairy late in the first, as a series of Portland penalties gave Connecticut sustained five-on-three time. The Pirates’ kill unit came up with another successful effort, but with 1:50 to play in the period, Newbury fought off Louis on the wall and fed Brandon Mashinter on the doorstep for an easy put away. Mashinter went on to say, “It was a good 60 minutes,” with a passing nod to Head Coach Ken Gernander’s mantra for the season. “Eminger is poised back there, (Chris) Kreider (returned to the Whale by the parent New York Rangers Friday afternoon) has great hands and he’s fast. Both those guys are NHL ready and it’s good to have them.”
http://www.ctwhale.com/news/detail/w...n-over-pirates

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02-27-2013, 01:05 PM
  #143
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Kreider needs to play. Gernander said Kreider is NHL ready a few weeks ago when Kreider was sent down and then called up. Gernander said Kreider is NHL ready. Rangers brass brought Kreider up when the lockout ended. They think he is ready. Does Torts think Kreider is ready? These disputes between management and the coach ends up with the coach getting fired.
He doesn't want him .

There should be a duck and cover emoticon.

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02-27-2013, 01:10 PM
  #144
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Why not send his ass down to Hartford to play 20 minutes and get Ferriero to play in the 4th line? You really think Kreider is the only guy in the Rangers system who is capable of playing 4 minutes dumb and chase in the 4th line?
Funny thing about Ferriero.

When he was up here he looked good. Had one subpar game and was sent down to the AHL. Tortorella's handy work.

If Kreider can play 20 minutes per night in the AHL, send him there.

Why would the organization rather have their top prospect sitting on the bench or in the press box. Instead they could have a guy like Haley or Ferriero doing that.

When the Whale get back to playing, send him down. Or give him a legit shot with someone with talent.

Kreider is being mishandled.

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02-27-2013, 01:10 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
This is exactly it.

Anyone who has ever played at a level above beer league or been on the ice developing young players, would understand this.

When your coach expects nothing less then perfection otherwise you're benched, you second guess every move you make on the ice. Think about every play you make. "If I finish my check, I'll lose my assignment" "if I carry the puck and turn it over I'll be benched, better to get rid of it".

What some see as "tentative" play, is the player over analyzing his play while he's on the ice. Results in indecision.

Its the COACH'S job to get the most out of his players.

A coach with common sense would see this issue and allot the player an opportunity to play with confident veteran talent and allow him to gain confidence in his game.

A coach who can't figure out how to properly develop certain players, can't get a power play with three of the league's top offensive forwards of the last decade going, can't figure out a game plan that generates some offense...he's not to blame? It's the 21 year old first year pro with less than half a regular season under his belt fault?
I played college hockey and I disagree. Something doesn't add up.

Why is it that if a young player is not playing well, a certain sect of fans blames the coach and other external forces? Last year he excelled in the same environment. Maybe the coaches became idiots in the off-season.

A player by the time he gets to the NHL has been pretty much formed. Blaming others for an NHL player's shortcomings makes little sense to me.

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02-27-2013, 01:15 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
Really? When last did he bench Richards? Redden 2.0 has been playing every other shift without doing a signle thing right. He has not contributed to our offense at all (And don't pull out the assists, because they are all secondary or shots resulting in rebounds. Richards has not created a goal since game 2.
Shots resulting in rebounds are enormous plusses but you have turned it into a negative. A ton of goals are scored that way. The Rangers could use more shots off rebounds.

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02-27-2013, 01:16 PM
  #147
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When he was up here he looked good. Had one subpar game and was sent down to the AHL. Tortorella's handy work.
I agree, Ferriero did impress me a little. His speed was good and he played good 4th line hockey.

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A player by the time he gets to the NHL has been pretty much formed. Blaming others for an NHL player's shortcomings makes little sense to me.
Then you probably understand that different players have different styles of play. How good you'd think Gaborik would do in 4th line? Physically, after they enter the NHL everything is just tweaking their talent and capabilities to a certain direction. Mentally, whole different story. Physically, nothing wrong with the kid. Now, the question is: How can a kid underperform in a way he is underperformed so far, when he is regarded as one of the hardest working guys in the past? The talent can't just disappear suddenly, can it?

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02-27-2013, 01:38 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
I don't call 10:22 ATOI mostly with bottom six players a real chance.

Miller and Kreider are two different kinds of players. I talked at length about what each bring since BEFORE they were drafted.

I knew Miller would be fine because of his physical and polished game.

While Kreider certainly isn't afraid to use his body, and while he certainly isn't an unintelligent player, he is NOT a "heady" player. He is the kind of player that plays on his instincts. He is an offensive player. He can not possibly be expected to play a style of game that he never played before in his life, 100% to perfection, 11 regular season games into his NHL career.

Here's a fact. Kreider is being over coached. He is not getting time in an offensive role, with the team's better offensive players, aside from ONE game with Richards. It wasn't a full game, either. Not one shift with Nash. Not with Stepan. Not with Hagelin.

Brian Boyle, Taylor Pyatt, Jeff Halpern, Brandon Mashinter, Aaron Asham, J.T. Miller, Darroll Powe. These have been his linemates.

Total time on the power play?

You expect to see an offensive player develop in a role unsuited for his style of play.

Again, coach's job is to maximize everyone's ability.

You don't take a java script engineer and ask him to be a graphic designer with zero design experience.

If he were given a shot with Nash, who would open up a TON of space for Kreider, and get him the puck around the net, and Kreider still didn't play well at all. Then we could be having this discussion.

The veteran leadership should ALWAYS be more accountable. More expectation = less accountability? Less expectation = more accountability?

What's backwards thinking now?

If Richards and Gaborik were doing their job, this wouldn't be such an issue. Kreider could ride shot gun with one of the big three and his mistakes wouldn't be under such a microscope.

Two guys earning 14 million on the cap have done nothing and suddenly your support cast is exposed.
What exactly is Kreider being asked to do that he hasn't been asked to do before? BC played about as close to a Tortorella-esque system as you'll find in the NCAA. Hard on the forecheck, responsible in your own end. He hasn't managed to do either of those things at this level this season, and you expect the coach to stick him on a line with Nash so he can find open ice? That's entirely unreasonable. We're not asking the kid to kill penalties, or shutdown scoring lines, or even QB the PP.

I find it ironic that you give Kreider a pass for doing the exact same things you crucify Gaborik for. I.e., inconsistent effort on a shift-to-shift basis, being invisible on the ice, not engaging physically, etc. Kreider is of no use to us if he can't play a regular shift without being a liability.

Just because Kreider has great physical and offensive tools, it doesn't mean he gets a pass to a scoring line role. He needs to earn it. Just like everyone else.

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02-27-2013, 02:47 PM
  #149
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I played college hockey and I disagree. Something doesn't add up.

Why is it that if a young player is not playing well, a certain sect of fans blames the coach and other external forces? Last year he excelled in the same environment. Maybe the coaches became idiots in the off-season.

A player by the time he gets to the NHL has been pretty much formed. Blaming others for an NHL player's shortcomings makes little sense to me.
Because in the playoffs Tortorella, and he's quoted as saying so, approached Kreider with "hands off".

He said he "didn't want to fill his head with too much about systems".

He let him play on instinct.

Which he is not doing now.

I played hockey at a high level too, and I disagree with you completely about how a player that reaches the NHL is complete?? Really? Players NEVER stop developing, ESPECIALLY when they reach the NHL.

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02-27-2013, 02:51 PM
  #150
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Because in the playoffs Tortorella, and he's quoted as saying so, approached Kreider with "hands off".

He said he "didn't want to fill his head with too much about systems".

He let him play on instinct.

Which he is not doing now.

I played hockey at a high level too, and I disagree with you completely about how a player that reaches the NHL is complete?? Really? Players NEVER stop developing, ESPECIALLY when they reach the NHL.
So you're saying Torts should still be hands off?

At what point are the subjects of defense and transition broached?

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