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02-27-2013, 02:52 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
What exactly is Kreider being asked to do that he hasn't been asked to do before? BC played about as close to a Tortorella-esque system as you'll find in the NCAA. Hard on the forecheck, responsible in your own end. He hasn't managed to do either of those things at this level this season, and you expect the coach to stick him on a line with Nash so he can find open ice? That's entirely unreasonable. We're not asking the kid to kill penalties, or shutdown scoring lines, or even QB the PP.

I find it ironic that you give Kreider a pass for doing the exact same things you crucify Gaborik for. I.e., inconsistent effort on a shift-to-shift basis, being invisible on the ice, not engaging physically, etc. Kreider is of no use to us if he can't play a regular shift without being a liability.

Just because Kreider has great physical and offensive tools, it doesn't mean he gets a pass to a scoring line role. He needs to earn it. Just like everyone else.
Oh please. In Montreal Kreider was one of the only forwards putting a full effort in.

The next game was a less then stellar performance.

This is what rookies are expected to be like.

Gaborik, on the other hand, is an 11 year veteran, earning 7.5 on the cap. Is looked at to be a leader. Is looked at to be a primary scorer. When Gaborik doesn't show up for over a month its a HUGE problem.

When Kreider, who is 21, has 11 regular season games under his belt, has a bad game, it should NOT be a HUGE issue the way it apparently is right now.

Why is it an issue? Why can't a rookie be allowed to develop in the background? Because the primary players have disappeared.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.

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02-27-2013, 02:55 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
So you're saying Torts should still be hands off?

At what point are the subjects of defense and transition broached?
Whenever Kreider's instincts tell him to allow it.

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02-27-2013, 02:57 PM
  #153
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So you're saying Torts should still be hands off?

At what point are the subjects of defense and transition broached?
Who the **** said that?

He's learning the systems. He's adjusting to the speed of the game. He's learning what it means to be an NHL player. He's playing more games per week then he's ever played.

There comes a point when the player has absorbed enough at a certain point, let him go out and play. When he's getting better, add more. Get better, add more.

He has NOT been a liability defensively. He's been OK. He's been able to read plays, cover for pinching defensemen, makes plays in the neutral zone.

He fumbled an awful pass from Bickel in the neutral zone that lead to a goal against. And he took a penalty. OK. Play and learn. Problem? He didn't get to play after that. No chance to correct the mistake.

And where was Gaborik and Richards when the team needed a goal late in the third?

He also needs to learn to use the skills that he was drafted for. And he hasn't gotten that opportunity yet, this season.

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02-27-2013, 02:59 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Who the **** said that?
That was your response to the question: "Why is it that if a young player is not playing well, a certain sect of fans blames the coach and other external forces?"

If you weren't saying that, your response was poorly phrased.

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02-27-2013, 03:01 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
That was your response to the question: "Why is it that if a young player is not playing well, a certain sect of fans blames the coach and other external forces?"

If you weren't saying that, your response was poorly phrased.
No. My response was not poorly worded. Attain a better reading comprehension.

Quote:
Last year he excelled in the same environment.

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02-27-2013, 03:22 PM
  #156
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For whatever the reason, be it Torts or himself, the fact that Kreider hasn't been good exposes our lack of depth.

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02-27-2013, 03:25 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
So you're saying Torts should still be hands off?

At what point are the subjects of defense and transition broached?
i dont think tortorella has broached the subject of transition for any player ever, judging by the way we play in the neutral zone.

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02-27-2013, 03:27 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Oh please. In Montreal Kreider was one of the only forwards putting a full effort in.

The next game was a less then stellar performance.

This is what rookies are expected to be like.

Gaborik, on the other hand, is an 11 year veteran, earning 7.5 on the cap. Is looked at to be a leader. Is looked at to be a primary scorer. When Gaborik doesn't show up for over a month its a HUGE problem.

When Kreider, who is 21, has 11 regular season games under his belt, has a bad game, it should NOT be a HUGE issue the way it apparently is right now.

Why is it an issue? Why can't a rookie be allowed to develop in the background? Because the primary players have disappeared.

This isn't a hard concept to grasp.
The fact that Gaborik's play really has nothing to do with how Kreider is performing and how he should be evaluated certainly seems like a difficult concept to grasp. Kreider can develop in Hartford. Right now, he's not contributing anything to a team that is supposed to be competing for a cup.

"He's a rookie! Look at Gaborik!" doesn't mean a whole lot. Rookies are expected to contribute something and Kreider is not contributing. Blaming Tortorella and building straw men doesn't change that fact.

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02-27-2013, 03:28 PM
  #159
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kreider hasn't even been that bad defensively. where are people getting this from? and sure getting sent down helped del zotto, but lets not forget, DZ was an absolute train wreck when he got sent down. i had to cover my eyes everytime he touched the puck in our zone. kreider is not even close to that level.

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02-27-2013, 03:39 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The fact that Gaborik's play really has nothing to do with how Kreider is performing and how he should be evaluated certainly seems like a difficult concept to grasp. Kreider can develop in Hartford. Right now, he's not contributing anything to a team that is supposed to be competing for a cup.

"He's a rookie! Look at Gaborik!" doesn't mean a whole lot. Rookies are expected to contribute something and Kreider is not contributing. Blaming Tortorella and building straw men doesn't change that fact.
no the point is, Krieders mistakes and lack of production are magnified because our star scorer isn't producing. there is no luxury for mistakes. Krieder should be developing in an environment of success led by proven NHL players. when they struggle and refuse to shoot and make passes to ghosts
the patience of coach John is taxed. so he takes it out on the new guy

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02-27-2013, 03:43 PM
  #161
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no the point is, Krieders mistakes and lack of production are magnified because our star scorer isn't producing. there is no luxury for mistakes. Krieder should be developing in an environment of success led by proven NHL players. when they struggle and refuse to shoot and make passes to ghosts
the patience of coach John is taxed. so he takes it out on the new guy
Kreider's mistakes are magnified because he looks like he has no business being in the National Hockey League right now in limited minutes.

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02-27-2013, 03:47 PM
  #162
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The fact that Gaborik's play really has nothing to do with how Kreider is performing and how he should be evaluated certainly seems like a difficult concept to grasp. Kreider can develop in Hartford. Right now, he's not contributing anything to a team that is supposed to be competing for a cup.

"He's a rookie! Look at Gaborik!" doesn't mean a whole lot. Rookies are expected to contribute something and Kreider is not contributing. Blaming Tortorella and building straw men doesn't change that fact.
It has everything to do with it.

When top players are performing like top players, support cast can do their jobs without as much scrutiny on them.

No one would care if Kreider was struggling, if the top players were our top players and the team were winning.

If they want him in the AHL, fine. Send him down. He needs to play.

You mean to tell me, that the way the team plays has no effect on each player? So when the defense doesn't do their job, it doesn't make Lundqvists' job harder? And I'm building straw men. OK.

If the team were rolling the way they should be, he could play in the top six at times, he can move up and down the lineup. They could afford a rookie learning on the job.

There are many variables to every situation. It's never simple cut and dry.

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02-27-2013, 03:48 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
no the point is, Krieders mistakes and lack of production are magnified because our star scorer isn't producing. there is no luxury for mistakes. Krieder should be developing in an environment of success led by proven NHL players. when they struggle and refuse to shoot and make passes to ghosts
the patience of coach John is taxed. so he takes it out on the new guy
Exactly.

Everything has an effect on everything.

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02-27-2013, 03:50 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The fact that Gaborik's play really has nothing to do with how Kreider is performing and how he should be evaluated certainly seems like a difficult concept to grasp. Kreider can develop in Hartford. Right now, he's not contributing anything to a team that is supposed to be competing for a cup.

"He's a rookie! Look at Gaborik!" doesn't mean a whole lot. Rookies are expected to contribute something and Kreider is not contributing. Blaming Tortorella and building straw men doesn't change that fact.
Agreed, but he is a rookie and some people love shiny new toys.

I think while Torts' leash might be a little short on Kreider, he in no way has shown anything this year that deserves 1st or 2nd line minutes. Players should have to earn their minutes. But, he shouldn't be playing any lower than 3rd line with about 8-10 mpg.

When healthy I would like to see the Kreider-Miller-Cally line be put back together. I think Kreider can benefit alot by playing with Cally, not only skill/smarts wise but energy wise as well.

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02-27-2013, 03:50 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by Ryan McDonut View Post
kreider hasn't even been that bad defensively. where are people getting this from? and sure getting sent down helped del zotto, but lets not forget, DZ was an absolute train wreck when he got sent down. i had to cover my eyes everytime he touched the puck in our zone. kreider is not even close to that level.
Agree.

And to be fair to Michael, he plays a position with much more pressure.

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02-27-2013, 03:50 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by NikC View Post
no the point is, Krieders mistakes and lack of production are magnified because our star scorer isn't producing. there is no luxury for mistakes. Krieder should be developing in an environment of success led by proven NHL players. when they struggle and refuse to shoot and make passes to ghosts
the patience of coach John is taxed. so he takes it out on the new guy
If the team was winning and Kreider was playing the exact same way, the only difference is that he'd look out of place on a winning NHL team, instead of on a losing one.

The kid is not NHL ready. That much was clear when the team sent him down before Nash was injured.

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02-27-2013, 04:03 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
It has everything to do with it.

When top players are performing like top players, support cast can do their jobs without as much scrutiny on them.

No one would care if Kreider was struggling, if the top players were our top players and the team were winning.

If they want him in the AHL, fine. Send him down. He needs to play.
In order to be a part of the supporting cast, you have to support something. He's not scoring, is a liability defensively, and is weak on the fore check. Those things wouldn't change if the team was winning. Problems are problems. Simple as that.

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You mean to tell me, that the way the team plays has no effect on each player? So when the defense doesn't do their job, it doesn't make Lundqvists' job harder? And I'm building straw men. OK.
You just argued against a point I didn't even make. Not only that, you used a straw man against it. There's no correlation between Gaborik scoring and Kreider scoring.

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If the team were rolling the way they should be, he could play in the top six at times, he can move up and down the lineup. They could afford a rookie learning on the job.

There are many variables to every situation. It's never simple cut and dry.
If the team were rolling the way it should be, all that would change is that he'd being outplayed by a legitimate group of top-six wingers instead of not managing to play his way into a top-six role when we're decimated by injuries and two of our best forwards are playing badly.

This situation is pretty cut and dry. Your inability to see that the kid isn't ready for the NHL is the only variable that's changing anything.

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02-27-2013, 04:05 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
If the team was winning and Kreider was playing the exact same way, the only difference is that he'd look out of place on a winning NHL team, instead of on a losing one.

The kid is not NHL ready. That much was clear when the team sent him down before Nash was injured.
I agree. Neither him nor JT are NHL ready right now.

However, the question is if letting them develop in the NHL will hurt them or help them in the long run.

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02-27-2013, 04:05 PM
  #169
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Please stop making excuses for CK, it's just embarrassing. "Hagelin gets the benefit of leaching off of Nash and riding his coat". Are you kidding me? Hagelin has been good whatever line he has been ob, while Kreider have been this years Wolski, loads of talent, but unable to unleash it while looking completely lost. Kreider needs to be better, period, it's up to himself, noone else. Why should CK have his spot handed to him on a silver plate?

Everyone has their own player favorites and agendas, just like Tortorella. CK gets the pass, Gaborik doesnt, etc.

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02-27-2013, 04:08 PM
  #170
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I think this Kreider discussion is ridiculous. Torts has always rewarded good play and punished bad play. This isnt a new thing. And its not about making mistakes, its about going out there and forcing the issue, making a play, dont be afraid to fail.

Richards was benched when he became too afraid to make a play. Gaborik, when he's being lazy, gets benched. it happened to Dubinsky, it happened to Stepan, it happened to Hagelin, he calls out kids, he calls out vets.

hes never had 1 bad thing to say about Kreider. Kreider is doing this to himself, because hes a KID. very few kids can come in and do what he did in the playoffs...he was fantastic, but hes fallen a bit back down to earth. there is a learning process. people forget how Callahan got sent down and wasnt playing well. How about MDZ? Rangers have integrated so much youth, and yet Torts is terrible at developing kids? gimme a break.

Repping this post.

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02-27-2013, 04:14 PM
  #171
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I agree. Neither him nor JT are NHL ready right now.

However, the question is if letting them develop in the NHL will hurt them or help them in the long run.
That's an important question, but the flip side of that is how it effects the success of the team this season. Having two guys on the bench that you don't know if you can trust on the next shift isn't a good situation for anyone.

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02-27-2013, 04:32 PM
  #172
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Play Kreider/don't panic

Nash-Stepan-Kreider/Pyatt
Hagelin-Richards-Gaborik
Pyatt/Kreider-Boyle/Miller-Callahan
Powe-Halpern-Asham

PP1-Nash-Callahan-Richards-Gaborik-Del Zotto
PP2-Hagelin-Stepan-Rotation-Girardi-Staal

PK1-Callahan-Boyle
PK2-Hagelin-Halpern

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02-27-2013, 04:33 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Or a winger who controls the puck. Like Nash.

He hasn't skated one shift with Nash.

Hagelin gets the benefit of leaching off of Nash and riding his coat tails. Kreider needs a confidence booster. Give him a game with Nash when he comes back into the lineup.

Kreider. Stepan. Nash
No need to knock Hags to defend Kreider...

However a lot of the same people knocking CK, were also knocking Hags for not being a scorer...that's not his asset the same way CK's asset is his speed and shot...

As JD used to say dancers dance and plumber plumb

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02-27-2013, 04:39 PM
  #174
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If every talent was sent down because of some inconsistency in their rookie season, we can get rid of the Calder Trophy as well.

Rookies should be allowed to play poor and make mistakes. It's what makes them better. Tyler Seguin wasn't a superstar in his rookie season. He had the same problem as Kreider, but he got a chance to redeem himself and now look where he's at.

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02-27-2013, 04:43 PM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
If every talent was sent down because of some inconsistency in their rookie season, we can get rid of the Calder Trophy as well.

Rookies should be allowed to play poor and make mistakes. It's what makes them better. Tyler Seguin wasn't a superstar in his rookie season. He had the same problem as Kreider, but he got a chance to redeem himself and now look where he's at.
Its obvious a lot of people love Kreider and had inflated expectations of him. His failures have been linked to just about every excuse imaginable.

In your heart of hearts, has Kreider been "inconsistent" or consistently bad? If your answer is the former, then you're just continuing to fool yourself.

Furthermore, if this was game 19 of an 82 game season, I'd have a lot less of a problem with Kreider working out his problems up here - although there'd still be some development and confidence issues I'd be concerned about.

In any event, for the good or the team and the good of Kreider, they should send him down ASAP.

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