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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread V

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Old
02-27-2013, 12:11 PM
  #101
Sturminator
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Good discussion about vsX percentage scores, and I appreciate all the work some are putting in here and in other threads. One thing that hasn't been brought up yet, but I think is important is what should we consider a significant difference when comparing players?

Example
Player A scores 80pts one year and the benchmark is 100pts he gets an 80.

Player B scores 80pts the next year and the benchmark is 98pts he gets an 82.

IMO these two seasons are pretty much equal. The 2 point difference in the benchmark is nothing over the course of an entire season, and could easily come from things like player A's team having more PP opportunities, more empty net opportunities, etc.

So my question is, at what percentage difference can you clearly say one player's season is better than another?
You're perfectly right that the difference between an 80 and an 82 is very small over the course of a single season. Over the course of an entire career, however, one player scoring a couple points higher in percentage every season becomes meaningful. This data is most useful when looked at longitudinally, on a career level.


Last edited by Sturminator: 02-27-2013 at 02:23 PM. Reason: spelling
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02-27-2013, 01:06 PM
  #102
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Seeing Dick Irvin go (after Lester Patrick and Tommy Ivan already went, to say nothing about Toe Blake) made me decide it's time to pull the trigger on getting a coach.

Swamp Devils pick Glen Sather, Coach

Quote:
Originally Posted by legendsofhockey
Sather is famous for his trademark "smirk" behind the bench. While some have described his look as arrogance, consider that Sather has the best winning percentage in the playoffs of any coach in the history of the game. Internationally, he led Team Canada to the 1984 Canada Cup championship and was general manager of the Canadian team that won the World Championship in 1994, Canada's first since 1961.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Times, May 9 , 1998
the Oilers felt that the secret to a happy, successful team in the playoffs was to let the players enjoy the regular season and get their points. When the playoffs arrived, they would naturally tighten up their approach and increase their defensive intensity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Jack Adams winning coach
Glen Sather is my role model. He doesn't operate out of the fear of making a decision but out of a sense of confidence that feeds through the entire organization. That confidence has sometimes been labeled as arrogance, but I have a great deal of respect for it."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Another Jack Adams winning coach
Glen Sather (was my mentor growing up). I liked Glen Sather's ability to coach a bunch of superstars and make them all perform at a high level every single night.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Gretzky on why Sather should get the next banner hanging in Edmonton
Absolutely, Slats should have a banner. How he handled all of us, how he believed in us when we were all 19 or 20 . . . he was like a father to us.

He hung in there with us. He was a mentor, he pushed us. He was the guy. He treated everybody differently. He’s a great example that you don’t treat everyone the same, whether a classroom in school or a hockey team. Every individual is different. Some like to be pushed, some don’t. He understood and accepted that. All and all, at the end of the day, players like playing for him and that goes a long way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Gretzky
My father and Glen Sather were the biggest influences on my hockey career. It's as if my father raised me until age 17, then said to (Sather) 'You take him from here.' It was Sather who would do the pushing. If I got 80 goals, Slats would tell me I could've had 85. He was never satisfied. But he always had faith in me (and) he made me a better player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sports Illustrated, Nov 12, 1990
(Sather) is also smart enough to understand that the most talented team usually wins. In 1982, the Oilers, who had scored what was then a record 417 goals in the regular season, were upset by Los Angeles in the first round of the playoffs. A year later they were swept by the New York Islanders in the finals, causing theorists to question whether an offensively oriented team, no matter how powerful, could win in the traditionally defensive playoffs. Instead, Sather saw his players as immature but inevitable champions, and viewed each setback as a learning experience. He preached defensive responsibility without frustrating creativity, and little by little the message took hold.
...
After Islander G.M. Bill Torrey, speaking at an NHL luncheon during the 1984 finals, dropped a half-kidding remark about the too-early-in-the-morning practice times assigned to his team in Edmonton, Sather wasn't kidding at all when he took his turn at the podium. He criticized New York fans, New York weather and the Oilers' practice times in New York. He then predicted that the Islanders, who were then trailing 2-1 in the series, wouldn't win another game. They didn't.

"I don't care what the occasion was," says Sather. "I wasn't going to back down. Not after they had beaten us in the finals the year before. Sure, it was motivational. I was trying to show our team we were there to win."
...
He loved coaching but felt that 10 years with the same teacher was dulling the students
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton Oilers, Against All Odds
To the players, Glen Sather was many things. He was fair, taking a player aside to let him know how he felt about his absymal play, rather than chewing him out in front of his teammates. He could also be ruthless, often in particularly creative way.
The example given - Young Mark Messier one time arrived at the wrong airport in Edmonton for a team flight. He called Sather. Sather said the team would leave without Messier, but don't worry - there would be a ticket waiting for him in the right airport - turns out the ticket Sather left Messier was to the home of the minor league affiliate. Messier was left there for two weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton Oilers, Against All Odds
He was also a master manipulator. No surprise: Slats had studied psychology in college.
...
Later, Kevin Lowe remembered how positive Sather was. More than positive, he could be downright inspirational. On the eve of the finals with the New York Islanders, the team was tense. For months, the players had be reliving the agony of a resounding defeat at the loss of the Stanley Cup the year before. Sather could sense the paranoia.

"You guys are the best team in the NHL!" he exorted. "If you use your heads and play the way we are telling you to play, you're going to win, and you're going to win easy." It wasn't just what he said, it was how he said it.

When he spoke, I got goosebumps," recalled Lowe. "I wanted to get out onto the ice right away
He'll help keep Phil Esposito in line:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edmonton Oilers, Against All Odds
]While on the road, nobody knew when Sather would check player's beds.

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Old
02-27-2013, 01:37 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post

Swamp Devils pick Glen Sather, Coach
Couldn't do better than him as a head coach for getting the best out of a mostly offensive oriented team imo.

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02-27-2013, 01:58 PM
  #104
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I need another good defensive defenseman. This year I am trying to have a more physical defense than last year to protect my star goaltender. And I need one who can kill penalties without taking many himself because I have a couple of crazy eyed guys already.

So I choose: D, Craig Ludwig

He will protect Tretiak from players getting into the slot as well as half the shots hahaha

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02-27-2013, 02:00 PM
  #105
tony d
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3 years in a row I've wanted Ludwig and I always seem to just miss him. I'm leaving work now and will make my pick when I get home in an hour and a half. In the mean time I'll entertain trade offers but if I get none by 5 ESt (6:30 my time) I'll make my pick.

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02-27-2013, 02:13 PM
  #106
TheDevilMadeMe
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I was just scanning the roster thread and noticed Hawkey Town's choice for backup goalie.

Well played, sir

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Old
02-27-2013, 02:33 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Seems like you're a big fan of players from the 40s and 50s, that or the guys that have all been selected are from that era and other eras are represented in the undrafteds.
No, most of the XXX are players between the 1930's to the the 1950's. To each their own, but I prefer to mostly stare away of modern players, especially active players. I like to learn on older players and not select players I can see on daily basis (Sidney Crosby last year was a big exception). Also, a lot of the guys that I drafted multiple times are players that kept falling down in the draft when I first started. Now, most of them gets selected where they belong.

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02-27-2013, 02:34 PM
  #108
seventieslord
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Sorry for the big block of text, hopefully you at least skim it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Yes I realize the gap in draft positions, but to refer to Turgeon as a "steal" because of point totals is just lazy. Did he have a positive impact on teammates? Is he the type of teammate who will make those around him better?
*
Yes, he absolutely made those around him better. Look at the results of his linemates, particularly between 1992 and 1998, and look at how much they typically tended to score.
*
Turgeon led his teams in points by margins of 24, 18, 15, 45, 19 (despite missing 15 games) from 1990-1994, with the players at all close to him usually being the guys he was carrying. In 2000 he was on pace to lead the 1st overall Blues by 29 points. In 2001 he led the team by 9, but that was 37 more than the next forward after Scott Young, who he clearly carried to 40 goals (the only season he scored more than 30 – and the 30 was in 1993). Any forward would be better by being on the same ice as him.
*
From 1997-2001, St. Louis was one of the league’s five best teams and Turgeon was their best offensive weapon. He had the most goals, assists and points, and was the best per-game as well, edging out Brett Hull. The only other guy to be a consistent regular season producer for them during this period barely cracked half a point per game in the playoffs (Turgeon averaged 0.90)
*
Sedin makes his linemates better, but I see no reason to believe he’s done any better a job at making them better than Turgeon did. Plus both his linemates make him better (which is not something anyone has ever claimed about Turgeon). Daniel is just as good a player as him, and it’s a no brainer that playing with Daniel Sedin instead of Derek King is going to make a positive difference for a player. And Burrows obviously scores more by being on the same line as those two, but it’s actually been proven that they both score more with him on the ice too! (see the link posted in the AAA draft, this phenomenon is not isolated to just the Sedins and Burrows)

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
So is a guy who scores 30 goals and 70 assists a better player offensively then a guy who scores 20 goals and 80 assists?

According to 70's he is, and by a large margin.
*
Pardon me??

Quote:
Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
A lot of people would take Forsberg at 25-75-100 over Iginla at 45-55, just as an example.

Although I agree with TDMM the more balanced scorer is more valuable, usually.
*
Maybe, but only because Iginla took 82 games to score those points and Forsberg took 68
*
Otherwise, give me Iginla in that case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
Who do you want to evaluate? Star players, or all players?

If you want to evaluate star players, recognize that certain factors in 1992-93 made is easier for top players to score a higher % of points and use vs2 or vs5 or your metric of choice that uses the top scorers as a benchmark. If you want to evaluate everyone why not just use regular adjusted points with league scoring level as a benchmark?
*
Ideally, all players, but I realize it’s not possible without some sort of logarithmic “size of league” factor in there.
*
The percentage system does a good job but without some intervention in certain seasons it can give crazy results. I try to account for that, and so do others, but we seem to have disagreements on when it’s necessary.
*
I’d really just rather use adjusted points with league scoring level as a benchmark, but as we’ve seen proven with HR’s adjusted points, this skews results in favour of 90s players at the expense of 80s players, much more than most of us are comfortable with. Under your adjusted points system, correct me if I’m wrong, the problem is even worse. (I don’t blame you, I know that it’s just displaying what the perfectly logical formula calculates). There has to be an accepted “adjusted adjusted” points system. I know a few people have put out their own variations, perhaps most notably Czech Your Math.
*
Basically the end result of this system is “adjust the 80s players down, but not to the full extent that league scoring dropped”. I like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gmm View Post
Here's something about longevity. I realize baseball and hockey are extremely different. Hitting is individual and a bad team doesn't lessen it. Hockey scoring is team driven and a bad team affects it.

Although I realize Mike Gartner is a HHoFer, if a baseball player hit 708 home runs and was 6th all time everyone would say he was one of the greatest home run hitters of all time. Compare the way we think and talk about Gartner to the way we do about the 6th biggest HR hitter ever, Ken Griffey Jr. Is it just the difference in the 2 sports or do we hold hockey players to a different (higher?) standard? Do hockey players have to be successful in a way we like (besides winning) and does style matter? Is style one of the reasons Denis Savard is more popular than Gartner imo?
*
More Popular or considered better? As for why any player is more popular than another, there could be many reasons. But Savard is better because he demonstrated on an annual basis that he was much better at providing offense. His 6th-best season was better than Gartner’s best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I was looking at Gartner a bit and he was a real high-volume, low percentage shooter compared to other scoring wingers of his era. And unlike most of those wingers he never played with a star centre. You wonder what he would done if he ever got to play with a good centre - maybe some of those 12% seasons turn into 14% seasons if he has someone who can set him up around the net.
*
However, good point.

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Old
02-27-2013, 02:56 PM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
This stuff is hard, and we really need some kind of standardization. The Vs2 methodology is quite clearly superior to the ranking system, but it would be very helpful if everybody agreed on which numbers we should use. I will have to do the hard work of actually going through NHL results season-by-season as seventies has suggested in order to further the discussion. Ugh...
*
Thanks for putting that thread together, by the way.
*
Just to be sure you’re clear on what I’m asking, I’m looking for a season by season breakdown of how many players reached certain thresholds (65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90 perhaps) so that odd seasons can be identified and discussed.
*
Any system that is a variation (or bastardization) of vs. 2 works for me – as long as we don’t end up with a bunch of seasons where it’s just way too easy or hard to get a good score because of slavish adherence to a formula.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think this method is probably the fairest way to deal with 1992... but god, it's a hell of a lot of work.
.
*
Not really. You just need to change the thresholds in a spreadsheet and you’re done. No more work. We just have to all agree on what they should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Well, I'm up in NH and I forgot my list. Just as well....I was trying to move up because there was a player I wanted and I knew that there was someone here who may possibly pick them again as they had in the past....but I had forgotten the name! So I went back and found him......and then realized he had already been picked!!

So I'm going to fill out my 2nd pairing....a right-hand shot who was known as a rough and ready player in his own end, rush the puck and score (He was #5 among defensemen in scoring and goals and leading or tying in goals on Montreal 6 times in his his decade of play).....and in a pinch, play GK.

The Boston Mules pick Albert "Battleship" Leduc / D.

*
This is really early.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I've only owned Odie Cleghorn one time.

In 10 drafts:

4 times
Gordie Drillon (2ndRW, 1stRW, 2ndRW, 3rdRW)
XXX (13thF, 13thF, 4thLW, 13thF)

3 times
Frank Brimsek (1stG, 1stG, 1stG)
Ralph Backstrom (3rdC, 3rdC, 3rdC)
XXX (13thF, 4thC, 13thF)

2 times
Bobby Bauer (2ndRW, 1stRW)
Woody Dumart (2ndLW, 1stLW)
Milt Schmidt (2ndC, 1stC)
XXX (7thD, 5thD)
XXX (4thC, 13thF)
XXX (3rdRW, 3rdRW)
XXX (4thLW, 14thF)
Glen Harmon (6thD, 7thD)
Bryan Hextall Sr. (1stRW, 1stRW)
Fleming Mackell (3rdC, 4thC)
Ken Mosdell (4thC, 3rdC)
XXX (4thRW, 13thF)
Bert Olmstead (2ndLW, 1stLW)
Jacques Plante (1stG, 1stG)
XXX (4thLW, 4thLW)
Jim Thomson (3rdD, 2ndD)
Roy Worters (2ndG, 1stG)


I've reunited the Kraut line on two occasions.
I've reunited the Army line
I've reunited the Goal-A-Game line
I've reunited the Gold Dust Twin

To my knowledge, those are the only players I've drafted 2 or more times. In 10 drafts, I don't think I've abused taking my favourite players too much.
*
I’d love to know which player has been taken by which GM the most. I have never tracked this. I know that if you count lower drafts, there are two defensemen I’ve had 4 times. I’ve had probably a couple dozen players 3 times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkey Town 18 View Post
Good discussion about vsX percentage scores, and I appreciate all the work some are putting in here and in other threads. One thing that hasn't been brought up yet, but I think is important is what should we consider a significant difference when comparing players?

Example
Player A scores 80pts one year and the benchmark is 100pts he gets an 80.

Player B scores 80pts the next year and the benchmark is 98pts he gets an 82.

IMO these two seasons are pretty much equal. The 2 point difference in the benchmark is nothing over the course of an entire season, and could easily come from things like player A's team having more PP opportunities, more empty net opportunities, etc.


So my question is, at what percentage difference can you clearly say one player's season is better than another?
*
I would say they are pretty much the same thing. No need to split hairs. A player who tended to, on a season basis, score a couple percent more than another player, would likely be the better player though. At that point, external factors have been smoothed out by time… hopefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
And I need one who can kill penalties without taking many himself because I have a couple of crazy eyed guys already.
*
He can kill penalties for sure, but I wouldn’t say he’s that good at avoiding them himself. He averaged 1.07 non-fighting PIMs in his career per game. I think there are many available PK defenseman who would do better, if that was the the sole criterion for this pick.
*
I realize it probably wasn’t, though…

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Old
02-27-2013, 03:04 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
*
Thanks for putting that thread together, by the way.
*
Just to be sure you’re clear on what I’m asking, I’m looking for a season by season breakdown of how many players reached certain thresholds (65, 70, 75, 80, 85, 90 perhaps) so that odd seasons can be identified and discussed.
*
Any system that is a variation (or bastardization) of vs. 2 works for me – as long as we don’t end up with a bunch of seasons where it’s just way too easy or hard to get a good score because of slavish adherence to a formula.
I agree that threshhold data would be highly useful for vetting potential problem seasons, but we are talking about a huge amount of work here.

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02-27-2013, 03:09 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I need another good defensive defenseman. This year I am trying to have a more physical defense than last year to protect my star goaltender. And I need one who can kill penalties without taking many himself because I have a couple of crazy eyed guys already.

So I choose: D, Craig Ludwig

He will protect Tretiak from players getting into the slot as well as half the shots hahaha


I'd say he'll stop more shots than Tretiak with those absurd shin guards.

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02-27-2013, 03:11 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He can kill penalties for sure, but I wouldn’t say he’s that good at avoiding them himself. He averaged 1.07 non-fighting PIMs in his career per game. I think there are many available PK defenseman who would do better, if that was the the sole criterion for this pick.
*
I realize it probably wasn’t, though…
Per 60 minutes of hockey or per game? That sounds awfully high!

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02-27-2013, 03:14 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
He can kill penalties for sure, but I wouldn’t say he’s that good at avoiding them himself. He averaged 1.07 non-fighting PIMs in his career per game. I think there are many available PK defenseman who would do better, if that was the the sole criterion for this pick.
*
I realize it probably wasn’t, though…
Well I guess I should say in the context of my team that compared to Cleghorn and Corbeau he doesn't take nearly as many penalties hahah

I need someone who is not as likely to be in the box to kill the penalties off!

I still wanted someone who was physical too so yeah, Ludwig took penalties but wasn't a nutcase.

My defense will be a lot more physical than the last couple years.

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02-27-2013, 03:34 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Nobody in their right mind would pick Turgeon over Roenick.Turgeon was the king of compiling useless points , and while I don't have numbers to back that up , any habs fans I know remember how Turgeon's real impact wasn't as great as his numbers indicated.

I appreciate the effort you put to defend Turgeon 2 years ago , but there's a reason Turgeon is mostly forgotten , and the reason isn't that he wasn't THE PLAYER of any team (meaning he would supposely lack any true fanbase that emotionnally backs him).Nobody is backing him because he didn't leave an impression on anybody despite putting good numbers.There's an overwhelming amount of players that switched teams regularly that left great impressions on those fanbases , why isn't Turgeon one of them?

I am not criticizing the pick per say , but when you start to compare Turgeon to guys like Roenick it just doesn't make sense at all in the real world.Roenick was a much more impactful players on a hockey team.
*
-****** Turgeon’s supposed compiling of useless points has never been demonstrated in any meaningful way (or in any way at all, actually). It would be a good start if his playoff stats were bad, but they weren’t.
-****** He was a great player for the Habs. He was just not a good captain for them. They desperately wanted him to be the new French Canadian face of the franchise, and he disappointed them, just like Savard did 7 years prior. And this is where this thing comes from.
-****** All you’ve really demonstrated is that Roenick was a more popular player than Turgeon, and that’s obviously a very small part of their overall greatness.
-****** Roenick obviously had some jam to him, but he was not as good a producer. 1992 and 1994 were the only seasons where he produced at a turgeon-like level, but even then, he just missed matching Turgeon’s points per game, and of course in 1993 (his 3rd-best season), he wasn’t close. They were the same age, and 1991 was the only season he definitely showed he was a better scorer. For the next 10 years, he was either even (at best), somewhat behind, or far behind. To his credit, after Turgeon lost it in 2002, Roenick was able to maintain his status as a pretty good scorer for two seasons.
*
I still get the impression that “Turgeon points” are somehow considered a different currency compared to points scored by any literally other player.
*
*
By the way, this was something I’ve been meaning to address. TDMM has made a comment a few times in this draft asking what makes Rick Middleton better than another player. I presume that relatively unimpressive percentage scores are what causes him to wonder this.
*
The thing about Middleton is, he’s a player whose point totals (and adjustments applied to them) really underrate him. He played his whole career on a strong defensive team, in the most competitive and most defensive division, and usually led his team’s forwards in points, by a good margin. This is exactly what is used (correctly) to boost Patrik Elias.
*
Starting in 1979, Middleton was his team’s highest scorer by margins of 6 (in 5 fewer GP), 14, 20, and 2 points (in 5 fewer GP), and when he finally had some real help at center, he began to score even more (on one hand, that center outscored Middleton briefly, but on the other hand, a top line LW was nowhere to be found on these teams)
*
From 1979-1984, his six-year prime, Boston averaged a ranking of 6.5 in the league in goals for, but 3.6 in goals against. He was 5th in points in the league, 2nd among wingers behind Bossy, although players like Stastny, Lafleur, Savard, Kurri and Taylor (thanks to Dionne) had a higher PPG in fewer games.

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02-27-2013, 03:36 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
The thing about Middleton is,
He played both ways and wasn't dependent on his center to create his own offense.

Looking at just his offensive numbers doesn't capture him as a player.

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02-27-2013, 03:39 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I agree that threshhold data would be highly useful for vetting potential problem seasons, but we are talking about a huge amount of work here.
If I gave you a spreadsheet with all scoring lines in nhl history would that help? you can just fill in each benchmark and run a formula from there. After that, counting players is easy, even if done manually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Per 60 minutes of hockey or per game? That sounds awfully high!
Per game.

Source: career regular season and playoff Pim total, minus 29 career fights x5, divided by career regular season and playoff games.


Last edited by seventieslord: 02-27-2013 at 09:52 PM.
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02-27-2013, 03:41 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
He played both ways and wasn't dependent on his center to create his own offense.

Looking at just his offensive numbers doesn't capture him as a player.
In a nutshell, yes.

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02-27-2013, 03:41 PM
  #118
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
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-****** Turgeon’s supposed compiling of useless points has never been demonstrated in any meaningful way (or in any way at all, actually). It would be a good start if his playoff stats were bad, but they weren’t.
-****** He was a great player for the Habs. He was just not a good captain for them. They desperately wanted him to be the new French Canadian face of the franchise, and he disappointed them, just like Savard did 7 years prior. And this is where this thing comes from.
-****** All you’ve really demonstrated is that Roenick was a more popular player than Turgeon, and that’s obviously a very small part of their overall greatness.
-****** Roenick obviously had some jam to him, but he was not as good a producer. 1992 and 1994 were the only seasons where he produced at a turgeon-like level, but even then, he just missed matching Turgeon’s points per game, and of course in 1993 (his 3rd-best season), he wasn’t close. They were the same age, and 1991 was the only season he definitely showed he was a better scorer. For the next 10 years, he was either even (at best), somewhat behind, or far behind. To his credit, after Turgeon lost it in 2002, Roenick was able to maintain his status as a pretty good scorer for two seasons.
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I still get the impression that “Turgeon points” are somehow considered a different currency compared to points scored by any literally other player.
Is there a scoring line player other than Turgeon for whom you use per-game stats for?

Quote:
By the way, this was something I’ve been meaning to address. TDMM has made a comment a few times in this draft asking what makes Rick Middleton better than another player. I presume that relatively unimpressive percentage scores are what causes him to wonder this.
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The thing about Middleton is, he’s a player whose point totals (and adjustments applied to them) really underrate him. He played his whole career on a strong defensive team, in the most competitive and most defensive division, and usually led his team’s forwards in points, by a good margin. This is exactly what is used (correctly) to boost Patrik Elias.
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Starting in 1979, Middleton was his team’s highest scorer by margins of 6 (in 5 fewer GP), 14, 20, and 2 points (in 5 fewer GP), and when he finally had some real help at center, he began to score even more (on one hand, that center outscored Middleton briefly, but on the other hand, a top line LW was nowhere to be found on these teams)
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From 1979-1984, his six-year prime, Boston averaged a ranking of 6.5 in the league in goals for, but 3.6 in goals against. He was 5th in points in the league, 2nd among wingers behind Bossy, although players like Stastny, Lafleur, Savard, Kurri and Taylor (thanks to Dionne) had a higher PPG in fewer games.
That's good and all (and I agree that his raw scoring finishes likely underrate him), but how does it make him better than Alfredsson and Hossa, both of whom finish well ahead of him in any commonly used measure of offense.

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02-27-2013, 03:45 PM
  #119
MadArcand
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Per game.

Source: career regular season and playoff Pim total, minus 29 career fights x5, divided by career regular season and playoff games.
What about misconducts? You should discount those too if you're discounting fighting majors.

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02-27-2013, 03:57 PM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
*
-****** He was a great player for the Habs. He was just not a good captain for them. They desperately wanted him to be the new French Canadian face of the franchise, and he disappointed them, just like Savard did 7 years prior. And this is where this thing comes from.

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I still get the impression that “Turgeon points” are somehow considered a different currency compared to points scored by any literally other player.
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What you're saying is false from my experience , very few people ever thought of Turgeon as a potentiel next french-canadien great star.Turgeon wasn't an arrogant or unpleasant guy either , so the fact that nobody (or very few) thought of him as a potentiel french-canadien star despite his numbers is actually a pretty solid indication that something was wrong with this player , especially considering the Montreal fanbase tendency to glorify their french-canadien players.They did it with Carbonneau , they did it with Damphousse , they even did it with Latendresse , but not with Turgeon.Why? Because nobody ever saw a star or someone who could lead the team even if only in an quiet offensive way in him.

The Turgeon case is a tough one to explain , and that's why you managed to get so far with it , because most people are unable to clearly express what we all saw that was wrong with Turgeon.I'm not hating on Turgeon at all , I have no reasons to hate him.This isn't because you compared to Roenick , we had the same discussion last year when I had nobody that really compared to Turgeon.

Of course Turgeon is an ATD player , and was a fine pick when Dreak and vecens24 picked him.


Last edited by Jafar: 02-27-2013 at 04:04 PM.
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02-27-2013, 04:01 PM
  #121
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What you're saying is simply false , very few people ever thought of Turgeon as a potentiel next french-canadien great star.Turgeon wasn't an arrogant or unpleasant guy either , so the fact that nobody (or very few) thought of him as a potentiel french-canadien star despite his numbers is actually a pretty solid indication that something was wrong with this player , especially considering the Montreal fanbase tendency to glorify their french-canadien players.They did it with Carbonneau , they did it with Damphousse , but not with Turgeon.Why? Because nobody ever saw a star or someone who could lead the team even if only in an quiet offensive role in him.

The Turgeon case is a tough one to explain , and that's why you managed to get so far with it , because most people are unable to clearly express what we all saw that was wrong with Turgeon.I'm not hating on Turgeon at all , I have no reasons to hate him.This isn't because you compared to Roenick , we had the same discussion last year when I had nobody that really compares to Turgeon.
You would know better than me what it was like actually being in Montreal and a Habs fan -- but I do remember at the time of the trade (and thereafter) there was buzz about Turgeon becoming a big star in Montreal because he was a talented French Canadian.

Obviously it didn't turn out that way but I do recall the idea being thrown around in the media anyways

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02-27-2013, 04:06 PM
  #122
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You would know better than me what it was like actually being in Montreal and a Habs fan -- but I do remember at the time of the trade (and thereafter) there was buzz about Turgeon becoming a big star in Montreal because he was a talented French Canadian.

Obviously it didn't turn out that way but I do recall the idea being thrown around in the media anyways
Yeah , when he was traded here maybe , but the hype died down pretty quickly even though Turgeon produced at a decent rate , why is that?

You know maybe we're all wrong about Turgeon , but I'm remaining very skeptical.

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02-27-2013, 04:16 PM
  #123
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Being that there are no offers for my pick I'll make the selection now.

With Pick 433 in the 2013 ATD the Baltimore Blades are proud to select defenseman Steve Smith.



I expect Smith to offer my team's bottom pairing a good 2 way game. He'll play both on the penalty kill and the power play.

Next has been pmed.

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02-27-2013, 04:16 PM
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
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This is really early.
Yeah a bit....but I like him, like his style, I think he'd be great with Lutchenko.

He's a natural righty and after doing searches there really aren't a whole lot of two-way righties left IMO. They're either hard core defensive oriented or PMD's with issues in their own end and I wanted a good partner with the two-way Lutchenko.

Quite frankly there's a few that I like but they're not considered ATD worthy and lordy knows I ain't in the mood for the righteous wrath that doth come down around here....

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02-27-2013, 04:22 PM
  #125
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Boys, the top 9 is complete.

Hall of famer Jack Darragh, RW. What now *****es, PMing next..

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