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2013 Draft Discussion (Mar. 29 article, post #976)

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02-27-2013, 02:56 PM
  #326
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Carlson will probably involve one of our centers, yeah.

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02-27-2013, 03:10 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Carlson will probably involve one of our centers, yeah.
Yeah, though Washington would have to add to get Couturier...

And if it's Laughton, we would have to add decently.


Laughton + our high 1st? If that could get it done, I'd do it.

Carlson is exactly who we need though I don't know how available he is.

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02-27-2013, 03:17 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
Yeah, though Washington would have to add to get Couturier...

And if it's Laughton, we would have to add decently.


Laughton + our high 1st? If that could get it done, I'd do it.

Carlson is exactly who we need though I don't know how available he is.
I'd be cool with that, though I think Carlson could be had for potentially less than the 1st. Maybe a 2nd and a guy like Gus (along with Laughton).

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02-27-2013, 03:20 PM
  #329
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I'd be cool with that, though I think Carlson could be had for potentially less than the 1st. Maybe a 2nd and a guy like Gus (along with Laughton).
If Carlson could be had for less than that 1st, why the hell haven't we done it already?

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02-27-2013, 03:30 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
If Carlson could be had for less than that 1st, why the hell haven't we done it already?
I meant less than Laughton and the first. Something like Laughton, a 2nd, and Gus I could see them taking for Carlson. I don't know why they haven't done it yet, but I could say the same thing about Laughton and 1st. I'd do both deals. Could be wrong though. Certainly wouldn't be the first time. Maybe I am underrating Carlson.

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02-28-2013, 02:00 AM
  #331
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Updated after tonights game;



Added some more columns including columns that project the end of season records of each team based on current pace and how the Flyers would have to perform down the stretch to match them.

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02-28-2013, 03:12 AM
  #332
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Originally Posted by FadeToBlack View Post
Updated after tonights game;



Added some more columns including columns that project the end of season records of each team based on current pace and how the Flyers would have to perform down the stretch to match them.
Small correction : Since we have more games played, we should be at the bottom of the teams with 21 points

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02-28-2013, 03:22 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Krishna View Post
Small correction : Since we have more games played, we should be at the bottom of the teams with 21 points
Please file your complaint with somebody who gives a crap at ESPN, I copy/paste this page's data into the spreadsheet.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/standings/_/group/1

You didn't really think I was putting all that in by hand, did you?

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02-28-2013, 03:31 AM
  #334
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Originally Posted by FadeToBlack View Post
Please file your complaint with somebody who gives a crap at ESPN, I copy/paste this page's data into the spreadsheet.

http://espn.go.com/nhl/standings/_/group/1

You didn't really think I was putting all that in by hand, did you?
You could still do it pretty easily by inserting an extra column and using a calculation to order it by estimated points in 48 games

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02-28-2013, 11:55 AM
  #335
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Too lazy. Since you feel the need to critique the style instead of comment on the content, I will just not post them.

Satisified?

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02-28-2013, 12:23 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by WeekendAtBernies View Post
Have you heard any rumblings about what (besides the first) would be in any of these trades?

You gotta figure that Rundblad AND Gormley would cost us the 1st + Couturier + Meszaros and possibly more.

Myers and Carlson would also have to involve Couturier I would think.
All the trades discussed have included Couturier and the Flyers first. In the case of Phoenix, what I was informed was Couturier, Meszaros, Laughton, the Flyers first and second for the two Phoenix defenders and Phoenix's 1st.

For Carlson, the deal being discussed was Carlson and Neuvirth for Couturier and the Flyers 1st. From what I heard from the scouts, the Flyers want Kuznetsov instead of Neuvirth and they want a draft pick as well from Washington (Washington's 2nd round at a minimum).

The Buffalo deal was Tyler Myers, Ville Leino (even though he's hurt), Buffalo's 2nd for Couturier, Meszaros and Philadelphia's first.

Once again, those were the deals that I heard from the scouts. The scouts seem to think that it isn't Holmgren who is putting together those packages and that Holmgren has no interest in acquiring long term contracts (re: Leino) and that if he's giving up his first, he wants at the very least a high 2nd back.

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02-28-2013, 12:24 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by FadeToBlack View Post
Too lazy. Since you feel the need to critique the style instead of comment on the content, I will just not post them.

Satisified?
I didn't really think he was being malicious in any way...

But to get back on track, say we have a pick between 15-18. Who you do pick?

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02-28-2013, 12:32 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
All the trades discussed have included Couturier and the Flyers first. In the case of Phoenix, what I was informed was Couturier, Meszaros, Laughton, the Flyers first and second for the two Phoenix defenders and Phoenix's 1st.

For Carlson, the deal being discussed was Carlson and Neuvirth for Couturier and the Flyers 1st. From what I heard from the scouts, the Flyers want Kuznetsov instead of Neuvirth and they want a draft pick as well from Washington (Washington's 2nd round at a minimum).

The Buffalo deal was Tyler Myers, Ville Leino (even though he's hurt), Buffalo's 2nd for Couturier, Meszaros and Philadelphia's first.

Once again, those were the deals that I heard from the scouts. The scouts seem to think that it isn't Holmgren who is putting together those packages and that Holmgren has no interest in acquiring long term contracts (re: Leino) and that if he's giving up his first, he wants at the very least a high 2nd back.
As much as the thought of dealing Couturier makes my eye twitch, that first deal seems intriguing, and would go a long way in fixing the barren landscape of top young D prospects. I'm not as enamoured about the prospective deal with Buffalo, particularly as Myers is having a very off season, and Leino would be another cap-anchor salary.

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02-28-2013, 12:38 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
All the trades discussed have included Couturier and the Flyers first. In the case of Phoenix, what I was informed was Couturier, Meszaros, Laughton, the Flyers first and second for the two Phoenix defenders and Phoenix's 1st.

For Carlson, the deal being discussed was Carlson and Neuvirth for Couturier and the Flyers 1st. From what I heard from the scouts, the Flyers want Kuznetsov instead of Neuvirth and they want a draft pick as well from Washington (Washington's 2nd round at a minimum).

The Buffalo deal was Tyler Myers, Ville Leino (even though he's hurt), Buffalo's 2nd for Couturier, Meszaros and Philadelphia's first.

Once again, those were the deals that I heard from the scouts. The scouts seem to think that it isn't Holmgren who is putting together those packages and that Holmgren has no interest in acquiring long term contracts (re: Leino) and that if he's giving up his first, he wants at the very least a high 2nd back.
Well I would hope not. Every deal seems like overpayment by the Flyers.

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02-28-2013, 02:26 PM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
All the trades discussed have included Couturier and the Flyers first. In the case of Phoenix, what I was informed was Couturier, Meszaros, Laughton, the Flyers first and second for the two Phoenix defenders and Phoenix's 1st.

For Carlson, the deal being discussed was Carlson and Neuvirth for Couturier and the Flyers 1st. From what I heard from the scouts, the Flyers want Kuznetsov instead of Neuvirth and they want a draft pick as well from Washington (Washington's 2nd round at a minimum).

The Buffalo deal was Tyler Myers, Ville Leino (even though he's hurt), Buffalo's 2nd for Couturier, Meszaros and Philadelphia's first.

Once again, those were the deals that I heard from the scouts. The scouts seem to think that it isn't Holmgren who is putting together those packages and that Holmgren has no interest in acquiring long term contracts (re: Leino) and that if he's giving up his first, he wants at the very least a high 2nd back.
All these trades sound like they were made on NHL13 or fantasy hockey....

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02-28-2013, 02:35 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
All the trades discussed have included Couturier and the Flyers first. In the case of Phoenix, what I was informed was Couturier, Meszaros, Laughton, the Flyers first and second for the two Phoenix defenders and Phoenix's 1st.

For Carlson, the deal being discussed was Carlson and Neuvirth for Couturier and the Flyers 1st. From what I heard from the scouts, the Flyers want Kuznetsov instead of Neuvirth and they want a draft pick as well from Washington (Washington's 2nd round at a minimum).

The Buffalo deal was Tyler Myers, Ville Leino (even though he's hurt), Buffalo's 2nd for Couturier, Meszaros and Philadelphia's first.

Once again, those were the deals that I heard from the scouts. The scouts seem to think that it isn't Holmgren who is putting together those packages and that Holmgren has no interest in acquiring long term contracts (re: Leino) and that if he's giving up his first, he wants at the very least a high 2nd back.
These deals are all pretty bad, especially the Phoenix deal. 2 NHL regulars, a top prospect, the top 2 picks for two guys who havent even established themselves as NHL players yet and a later first. Couturier alone has more value than Gormley or Rundblad; he is younger, has played in the NHL, and is at a more premium position.


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02-28-2013, 02:44 PM
  #342
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These deals are all pretty bad, especially the Phoenix deal. 2 NHL regulars, a top prospect, the top 2 picks for two guys who havent even established themselves as NHL players yet and a later first. Couturier alone has more value than Gormley or Rundblad; he is younger, has played in the NHL, and is at a more premium position.
Sorry but Laughton isn't a top prospect for anyone but us. He projects as a 3rd line C in the NHL. Gormley is a top prospect. Rundblad is a bit more boom or bust but he has about 30 games of NHL experience. I don't agree with your assessment that C is more of a premium position then D either. I don't understand why we are putting in picks and taking back a pick when they are both likely to be right around the same range. Quite frankly I don't like this proposal much at all either but targetting Gormley wouldn't be a bad move I don't think. I wouldn't want to give up Couturier for him alone though. I think I would attempt to build a package including Laughton, Gus, and picks. If they'd rather have a more NHL ready player then Meszaros rather then Gus. I wouldn't be comfortable moving anyone out of our top 9.

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02-28-2013, 02:53 PM
  #343
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These deals are all pretty bad, especially the Phoenix deal. 2 NHL regulars, a top prospect, the top 2 picks for two guys who havent even established themselves as NHL players yet and a later first. Couturier alone has more value than Gormley or Rundblad; he is younger, has played in the NHL, and is at a more premium position.
Oh I agree. And if these are the types of deals that teams are asking, then yeah, I'd rather the Flyers keep what they have. Part of the problem is that a team like Phoenix will probably be relocated next year. As such, they're going to want to stock the team with a ton of young proven talent to help build a new fanbase wherever they move to. I have no doubts that Phoenix is going to ask the moon for any deal they're involved in.

In terms of the Washington deal, Neuvirth has next to no value and nobody knows if Kuznetsov will ever come over. McPhee is basically grasping at straws and is pretty much trying to unload anything and get something worth value in return. Now, I like Carlson, but not to the point of giving up Couturier AND a first to land him and a suspect goaltender or a prospect who might not even come over to North America.

Finally, the Buffalo deal is just a bad deal. But once again, Regeir and company are known to ask for ridiculous returns for players they are trying to unload. Remember when they wanted to deal Miro Satan to the Flyers and they wanted Simon Gagne in return? Well, that's pretty much what this move would equate to.

Once again, I'm just passing on what I was informed, but yeah, the deals are significantly bad. I'm also wondering if teams are making ridiculous demands because of the offersheet the Flyers submitted to Shea Weber. I know that offer sheets are part of the CBA, but as Jimmy Develano stated in his interview, not many people in hockey were happy with what the Flyers did. Could be repercussion for what Holmgren did. Something to think about anyways.

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02-28-2013, 02:53 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by PALE PWNR View Post
Sorry but Laughton isn't a top prospect for anyone but us. He projects as a 3rd line C in the NHL. Gormley is a top prospect. Rundblad is a bit more boom or bust but he has about 30 games of NHL experience. I don't agree with your assessment that C is more of a premium position then D either. I don't understand why we are putting in picks and taking back a pick when they are both likely to be right around the same range. Quite frankly I don't like this proposal much at all either but targetting Gormley wouldn't be a bad move I don't think. I wouldn't want to give up Couturier for him alone though. I think I would attempt to build a package including Laughton, Gus, and picks. If they'd rather have a more NHL ready player then Meszaros rather then Gus. I wouldn't be comfortable moving anyone out of our top 9.
I'd do Laughton+ for Gormley.

I would not do 1st or Couturier though.

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02-28-2013, 03:01 PM
  #345
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Sorry but Laughton isn't a top prospect for anyone but us. He projects as a 3rd line C in the NHL. Gormley is a top prospect. Rundblad is a bit more boom or bust but he has about 30 games of NHL experience. I don't agree with your assessment that C is more of a premium position then D either. I don't understand why we are putting in picks and taking back a pick when they are both likely to be right around the same range. Quite frankly I don't like this proposal much at all either but targetting Gormley wouldn't be a bad move I don't think. I wouldn't want to give up Couturier for him alone though. I think I would attempt to build a package including Laughton, Gus, and picks. If they'd rather have a more NHL ready player then Meszaros rather then Gus. I wouldn't be comfortable moving anyone out of our top 9.
I disagree on Laughton. Laughton I believe is a top 50 ranked prospect in Hockey News Future Watch according to the prospect board. That's a top prospect in my book. Also Mike Richards was once considered only a 3rd line center his draft year and quickly rose up the ranks after. As far as center being worth more: look at Phoenix's trade with Ottawa. Rundblad + 2nd for Kyle Turris. Rundblad was ranked in the teens on this site that year and Ottawa still had to add. Look what the Flyers got for Richards and Carter, and they are no where near 1st line center calibre. Same with Jordan Staal. Compare those returns to Brett Burns or Dion Phanuef. You can mention Pronger as a bigger return but that is Norris trophy level, which he is the only one I can remember traded in his prime.. Comparable centers, which I cant think of one that was traded, are almost never traded.

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02-28-2013, 03:05 PM
  #346
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Sorry but Laughton isn't a top prospect for anyone but us. He projects as a 3rd line C in the NHL. Gormley is a top prospect. Rundblad is a bit more boom or bust but he has about 30 games of NHL experience. I don't agree with your assessment that C is more of a premium position then D either. I don't understand why we are putting in picks and taking back a pick when they are both likely to be right around the same range. Quite frankly I don't like this proposal much at all either but targetting Gormley wouldn't be a bad move I don't think. I wouldn't want to give up Couturier for him alone though. I think I would attempt to build a package including Laughton, Gus, and picks. If they'd rather have a more NHL ready player then Meszaros rather then Gus. I wouldn't be comfortable moving anyone out of our top 9.
I wouldn't sell Laughton short. He's a complete player who is getting more comfortable and is starting to develop the offensive side of his game. It should be noted that before he left for Flyers training camp, he had something like 33 points in 32 games. In the 12 games since he returned, he's had 18 points and he's playing at a whole other level. On top of it, the guy is already defensively sound. Everyone seems to think that players like Laughton are a dime a dozen, but players who play nearly Selke award winning defense are very rare (see Couturier, Sean). I really like the Laughton pick and he's going to be a guy that a lot of teams will be kicking themselves over for not selecting him.

With that being said, I also get that he's redundant with the depth of centers that the Flyers currently have. If he can help land a potential franchise defenseman, then yes, I think you use him as part of the trade. However, don't think for one second that Laughton isn't a top prospect because that simply isn't true. More and more teams are really starting to become enamored with Laughton and his overall game.

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02-28-2013, 07:50 PM
  #347
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their are obviously two styles of fans

on the flyers board. and i bet their are two styles that go to all the flyer games at wells-fargo. style 1,, the aggressive traders. the guys that have their list of guys who are available from us players-picks. they have the ability to rattle off names of guys they want to land, subban, john carlson types of guys. and i bet they operate their fantasy teams the same way. then their is the other style, old school guys. guys that trade less and only trade if what they receive is great than what they give.and in certain draft years, picks are flexible, more valuable in drafts with good depth and less valuable in weak drafts. as an organization we trade picks in any draft year. we dont seem to put a premium on picks in good draft years. and i fall into the old school category. if we want weber,john carlson,subban then draft them. carlson. we traded umburger for a pick, traded the pick to the caps for steve emminger, of all people. letting carlson slip away from us, and to the caps. the good news for us is we have upgraded our scouting staff, added another dimension. we are used to nailing home runs on forwards and wiffing on dmen. we drafted dmen as well as the new england patriots drafted wide receivers. but having a guy like chris pronger working on drafting dmen, that is gonna greatly increase our chances of winning the cup.

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02-28-2013, 08:03 PM
  #348
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I'd do Laughton+ for Gormley.

I would not do 1st or Couturier though.
I agree, I don't think we have to move Couturier to get a guy like Gormley but he's somebody that we should be targetting, he's a guy on the cusp of being in the NHL, if not overdue to be in it, on a team stacked at his postion and in need of what we have. If we can sell Laughton as the centerpeice for Gormley I'd jump all over it.

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02-28-2013, 08:21 PM
  #349
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For those you have seen these prospects, what defensemen will be ready in a year after the draft, ala Dougie Hamilton? Pulock? Nurse? Haag? Rasti?

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02-28-2013, 09:12 PM
  #350
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For those you have seen these prospects, what defensemen will be ready in a year after the draft, ala Dougie Hamilton? Pulock? Nurse? Haag? Rasti?
Think about what it would take to get Couturier. That's what it would take to get Hamilton.

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