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Who is the 5th best NHL player of all time?

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Old
02-27-2013, 06:41 AM
  #226
Crease
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Bobby Hull
Seasons: 15
Led the NHL in Goals: 7x
Top 5 in Goals: 12x
Led the NHL in Points: 3x
Top 5 in Points: 8x
1st Team All-NHL: 10x
2nd Team All-NHL: 2x
Harts: 2x
RS PPG: 1.10
PO PPG: 1.08

Jean Beliveau
Seasons: 20
Led the NHL in Goals: 2x
Top 5 in Goals: 7x
Led the NHL in Points: 1x
Top 5 in Points: 8x
1st Team All-NHL: 6x
2nd Team All-NHL: 4x
Harts: 2x
RS PPG: 1.08
PO PPG: 1.09

Maurice Richard
Seasons: 18
Led the NHL in Goals: 5x
Top 5 in Goals: 12x
Led the NHL in Points: 0x
Top 5 in Points: 9x
1st Team All-NHL: 8x
2nd Team All-NHL: 6x
Harts: 1x
RS PPG: 0.99
PO PPG: 0.95

Doug Harvey
Seasons: 19
1st Team All-NHL: 10x
2nd Team All-NHL: 1x
Norrises: 7x
RS PPG: .49
PO PPG: .53

Dominik Hasek
Seasons: 16
Led NHL in SV%: 6x
Top 5 in SV%: 9x
Led NHL in GAA: 2x
Top 5 in GAA: 9x
1st Team All-NHL: 6x
2nd Team All-NHL: 0x
Vezinas: 6x
Harts: 2x
RS SV%: .922
PO SV%: .925

Very tough to rank these gentlemen. I think I want to give the #5 slot to Hull though.

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02-27-2013, 09:18 AM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post

Of course Richard was a legendary playoff performer, but he still had some duds as well (35 points in 57 PO games, during 6 consecutive POs at ages 27-32). Maybe he was injured during some of those, but then about the only time Jagr didn't have great numbers in the playoffs were when he was injured (e.g. '01 & '06 vs. the Devils) or outside his prime (e.g. '91) or both (2012).
He still lead the league in PO goals during that period (as well as GPG).

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02-27-2013, 03:28 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Richard beat out Gordie Howe a few times.
Until Howe turned 25, aside from what are arguably Richard's two best seasons - which happened to nicely coincide with down years from Howe. And in 55-56, Howe still outscored Richard handily.

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Jagr had a really nice bounceback year in 2005-06, but Richard never had dead years like Jagr's time in Washington. Richard also never lost out a 1st team to a guy like Teemu Selanne as Jagr did
Jagr missed 20 games that season and still scored 95 points. Selanne had a full healthy year and finished second with 109. It's understandable why someone would vote Selanne (there are only two 100-point scorers, and Selanne is one of them!) but Jagr was clearly the better player.

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and yes, Richard certainly faced competition like that in Bernard Geoffrion and Andy Bathgate.
Speaking of Geoffrion... what puts Richard above Geoffrion in 75 other than the fact he lost the scoring title due to a suspension? If you go ahead with GPG and PPG, then you have to acknowledge that Geoffrion was better the prior year, and both Howe and Geoffrion were better the following year. It's an interesting quandary for Richard fans, isn't it?

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Meh, Jagr tied for the scoring lead in 1994-95 with fewer PPG than Lindros
And Mario Lemieux had a higher PPG than Gretzky in 1993-94, but only played 22 games.

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, and everyone knows he was gifted the 2000-01 title by Lemieux's return. I don't find those seasons any more impressive than some of Richard's second place points finishes while being a superior goal scorer (and he has 5 of them).
So what's your opinion on Messier vs. Yzerman in 1989-90? Yzerman had 62 goals and 127 points, Messier had 45 goals and 129 points.

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So it comes down to whether you prefer Jagr's 3 year regular season peak (1997-98 to 1999-2000), where he did hit a level Richard never did (at least in the regular season), or if you prefer Richard's greater consistency as an elite player and superior playoff record. I take Richard's record without a second thought.
"so basically, to determine the better player, you have to decide between the guy who had the much higher play level at his peak and the guy who was surrounded by stars who surpassed at all points of his career."

Richard is legendary for his pimping of French culture in Quebec. But he wasn't a better player than Jagr.

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02-27-2013, 03:36 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Speaking of Geoffrion... what puts Richard above Geoffrion in 75 other than the fact he lost the scoring title due to a suspension? If you go ahead with GPG and PPG, then you have to acknowledge that Geoffrion was better the prior year, and both Howe and Geoffrion were better the following year. It's an interesting quandary for Richard fans, isn't it?
People who watched them play favored Richard in both All Star and Hart voting. I don't really see a quandray, though I can see why Geoffrion did get significant All Star votes.

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So what's your opinion on Messier vs. Yzerman in 1989-90? Yzerman had 62 goals and 127 points, Messier had 45 goals and 129 points.
Messier, easily.

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"so basically, to determine the better player, you have to decide between the guy who had the much higher play level at his peak and the guy who was surrounded by stars who surpassed at all points of his career."

Richard is legendary for his pimping of French culture in Quebec. But he wasn't a better player than Jagr.
Let me guess, you'd throw a fit if someone tried to use the "he's overrated because he played on a stacked team" for any Red Wings player who played after 1995. But because Richard was a rival of a Red Wings player, you use it on him.

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02-27-2013, 04:02 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
People who watched them play favored Richard in both All Star and Hart voting. I don't really see a quandray, though I can see why Geoffrion did get significant All Star votes.
Richard played with better linemates, and posted worse offensive numbers than Geoffrion in 53-54 and 55-56. It's like picking Francis as the first-team C in 1996 instead of Lemieux. Francis had significantly better linemates, yet posted worse numbers.

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Messier, easily.
But you just said (basically) that a second place finish while leading in goals is equivalent to an assist-based first-place finish. That should translate to "a player with seventeen more goals but two fewer points is, at minimum, equal" using logic. Am I wrong? And if so, why?

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Let me guess, you'd throw a fit if someone tried to use the "he's overrated because he played on a stacked team" for any Red Wings player who played after 1995. But because Richard was a rival of a Red Wings player, you use it on him.
The difference is this. Richard, specifically, was a cultural icon. His 50-in-50 was legendary, right? If it was considered so legendary then, why did Elmer Lach beat him for the Hart trophy? In fact... when you hear about the great Canadiens of years past from Canadien fans, who are the ones brought up?

Richard, Beliveau, Lafleur, Roy, Plante, Cournoyer, Geoffrion. Occasionally Harvey and Robinson.

You never hear about Elmer Lach. Even Morenz is hardly mentioned outside of historical "great players" stuff. Frank or Pete Mahovlich? Nope. 60-goal man Steve Shutt? Forget about it. Dickie Moore? Do you ever hear about Toe Blake, as a player?

Have you noticed the pattern yet?

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02-27-2013, 04:21 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Speaking of Geoffrion... what puts Richard above Geoffrion in 75 other than the fact he lost the scoring title due to a suspension? If you go ahead with GPG and PPG, then you have to acknowledge that Geoffrion was better the prior year, and both Howe and Geoffrion were better the following year. It's an interesting quandary for Richard fans, isn't it?... Richard is legendary for his pimping of French culture in Quebec. But he wasn't a better player than Jagr.
Say what now?... the intangibles, everything Maurice Richard brought to the game & the ice, depth of play, a complete game changer in comparison to Boom Boom, and quite a different animal altogether from a Jagr. If you feel JJ is a superior player, and I can empathize, appreciate & do respect such an opinion, no problem. Agree to disagree on that one, but you wont hear me suggesting Jagr is legendary for pimping Czech culture and not hockey, something that in both cases transcends points of origin. Sure, xenophobia exists even still between English & French Canada, Canada & the US, Europe, and it surely is a shame, but to suggest that someone thinks Richard is 5th Best All Time simply because of some dated anachronistic revisionism in buffing his resume' as Hero of Quebec? Well, thats just disingenuous. It belittles the player that he was.

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02-27-2013, 04:27 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Say what now?... the intangibles, everything Maurice Richard brought to the game & the ice, depth of play, a complete game changer in comparison to Boom Boom, and quite a different animal altogether from a Jagr. If you feel JJ is a superior player, and I can empathize, appreciate & do respect such an opinion, no problem. Agree to disagree on that one, but you wont hear me suggesting Jagr is legendary for pimping Czech culture and not hockey, something that in both cases transcends points of origin. Sure, xenophobia exists even still between English & French Canada, Canada & the US, Europe, and it surely is a shame, but to suggest that someone thinks Richard is 5th Best All Time simply because of some dated anachronistic revisionism in buffing his resume' as Hero of Quebec? Well, thats just disingenuous. It belittles the player that he was.
I'm suggesting that he was placed ahead of Geoffrion at the time by Montreal fans and papers due to his "aura" as the "hero of Montreal".

Think about Paul Henderson, and how people want him in the Hall of Fame because of his three goals in the last three games of the Summit Series. Now think about the same kind of "national hero" idea being applied to a player like Richard, who was already one of the best players and not an average second/third liner like Henderson.

Does that make sense to you?

And for the record, I have already stated that I am fine if someone wants to consider Richard 5th; that it's a completely valid position. But what you did in your post was not only bashed a great player in Geoffrion, but labeled me as saying Richard was only getting such a ranking from some due to his "aura" as it were.

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02-27-2013, 04:30 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Have you noticed the pattern yet?
I like patterns, like the one in 1944 in a game against the Leafs, first and last time it ever happened; 1st Star; Maurice Richard. 2nd Star; Maurice Richard. 3rd Star?. Yep. Maurice Richard. This guy was a frikin machine, an a.n.i.m.a.l....

and I mean that in the nicest way.

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02-27-2013, 04:35 PM
  #234
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Richard is arguably the greatest player of all time, and also arguably one of the top 10 best players.

He was a proud Quebecer and proud Canadian. I'm not sure what exactly is meant by "pimping" Quebec culture , but I don't think he did that...he was certainly the Quebec hockey icon and no other player was close...maybe Beliveau for a while in Quebec City when he played for the Aces.

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02-27-2013, 04:55 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I'm suggesting that he was placed ahead of Geoffrion at the time by Montreal fans and papers due to his "aura" as the "hero of Montreal".
Yes, I do understand your point & perspective, its an interesting thought & possibility. That Richard cast a shadow over his line & team mates contemporaneously which grew larger as the decades sailed on by. There is I believe some truth in your observation. However, once distilled down to its essence, flummeries & fictions dispelled, your still left with a larger than life presence, an inimitable talent.... and no, I didnt "bash" Geoffrion, Hell of a player, a reg'lar bon-vivant, just not on the same level as Richard. Occasionally better, absolutely though not consistently enough to equal let alone better Richard in totality. Nowhere near as electric.

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02-27-2013, 05:13 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
I like patterns, like the one in 1944 in a game against the Leafs, first and last time it ever happened; 1st Star; Maurice Richard. 2nd Star; Maurice Richard. 3rd Star?. Yep. Maurice Richard. This guy was a frikin machine, an a.n.i.m.a.l....

and I mean that in the nicest way.
To be fair, in 1944 there weren't many NHL players available to put in those spots due to the war. Maybe Richard was the only one playing that night?

Seriously though, if you're going to bring up 1944:

Hart trophy winner, 1944-45: Elmer Lach, C, Montreal
Art Ross trophy winner, 1944-45: Elmer Lach, C, Montreal
Anyone care to guess who centered Richard from 43-44 through 1952-53?

During that period:

Richard: 571GP, 342-231-573, 1.00PPG
Lach: 527GP, 185-333-518, 0.98PPG

Top finishes:
Richard: 2, 2, 2, 2, 2
Lach: 1, 1, 3, 5, 7

Awards:
Richard: AS1stx8, AS2ndx6, Hartx1,
Lach: AS1stx3, AS2ndx2, Hartx1, Rossx2

Richard had a pretty damn good center, non?

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02-27-2013, 05:17 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Richard is arguably the greatest player of all time, and also arguably one of the top 10 best players.

He was a proud Quebecer and proud Canadian. I'm not sure what exactly is meant by "pimping" Quebec culture , but I don't think he did that...he was certainly the Quebec hockey icon and no other player was close...maybe Beliveau for a while in Quebec City when he played for the Aces.
Ok, let's set Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr aside. Give me the argument that places Richard above Gordie Howe. Because Howe was generally considered the best player in the world by Richard's seventh season.

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02-27-2013, 05:28 PM
  #238
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Until Howe turned 25, aside from what are arguably Richard's two best seasons - which happened to nicely coincide with down years from Howe. And in 55-56, Howe still outscored Richard handily.



Jagr missed 20 games that season and still scored 95 points. Selanne had a full healthy year and finished second with 109. It's understandable why someone would vote Selanne (there are only two 100-point scorers, and Selanne is one of them!) but Jagr was clearly the better player.



Speaking of Geoffrion... what puts Richard above Geoffrion in 75 other than the fact he lost the scoring title due to a suspension? If you go ahead with GPG and PPG, then you have to acknowledge that Geoffrion was better the prior year, and both Howe and Geoffrion were better the following year. It's an interesting quandary for Richard fans, isn't it?



And Mario Lemieux had a higher PPG than Gretzky in 1993-94, but only played 22 games.



So what's your opinion on Messier vs. Yzerman in 1989-90? Yzerman had 62 goals and 127 points, Messier had 45 goals and 129 points.



"so basically, to determine the better player, you have to decide between the guy who had the much higher play level at his peak and the guy who was surrounded by stars who surpassed at all points of his career."

Richard is legendary for his pimping of French culture in Quebec. But he wasn't a better player than Jagr.
Nice.

A truly ignorant statement.

More likely the 82 goals in 133 playoff games that make him a legend.

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02-27-2013, 05:35 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Richard had a pretty damn good center, non?
Oui. The Nokomis Flash. Constantly being injured to boot due to the style he played. An excellent defensive forward as well as having the gift, tape-tape passes, flips, seriously dangerous shooter himself. Rangy. Hard to corral.

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Give me the argument that places Richard above Gordie Howe.
Ya, see, I wouldnt go that far, though there are some who have. I think the op was simply making that point, that there are those who feel that way, albeit of a much older generation, thinking subjectively, emotionally. Richard played with his heart on his sleeve. Hard not to fall in love with that type.

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02-27-2013, 05:40 PM
  #240
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Nice. A truly ignorant statement.
... well, I hafta admit it did pop off the page at me as well. Already dealt with it.

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02-27-2013, 06:21 PM
  #241
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Nice.

A truly ignorant statement.
Did you know that there's a biography out there that compares Richard to Jackie Robinson, in a completely serious manner?

One need only look at the "Richard Riot" in 1955 and the events leading up to it in order to see the myth. Richard was suspended by anglophone Clarence Campbell. He had knocked a linesman unconcious when that linesman tried to stop him from continuing an assault (stick and fist) on a Bruins player. This was not the first time that season he had attacked a linesman.

Montreal fans and writers felt the punishment - suspension for the rest of the season and the playoffs - was too severe. Elsewhere, it was considered just or even too light. Ted Lindsay said he was lucky that he wasn't banned for life, as would likely happen in other sports.

Campbell received death threats, and it was recommended that he not attend the upcoming Montreal/Detroit game. He felt it to be his duty as league president to attend, so he did. Thousands of protestors were there, booing Campbell and holding signs such as "long live Richard" and "our national sport destroyed" (in French of course). The protestors attempted to break through the Montreal Forum doors, but were held back by police. At one point, Campbell was assaulted by a Canadiens fan. Later, a tear gas bomb was set off not far from Campbell. Campbell was able to take refuge in the Forum clinic, and along with Canadiens Gm Frank Selke, they decided the Canadiens would forfeit the game to Detroit, who had been dominating it to that point, "for the protection of the fans". The Forum was ordered closed and the fans were asked to leave. The departing crow joined protestors outside in looting, vandalizing, burning, etc. They chanted "Long live Richard" and "Down with Campbell". The mayor of Montreal blamed Campbell for the riot; a Montreal city councilor wanted him arrested for it.

And let's look at other things aside from the Riot.

Such as Richard's opinion pieces. Richard wrote opinion pieces that included such things as criticizing official NHL scorekeepers. "They get too many assists in Detroit" he complained. Studies have proven him wrong, of course. But don't tell the Quebecois!

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02-27-2013, 06:42 PM
  #242
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But don't tell the Quebecois!
... oh Good Grief euz, is this really necessary? Dredging up the spectre's of Drapeau & Duplessis? Conscription? Baby Factorys in Quebec? "Fixed Assists" & point tallys in Detroit insuring English speaking Great White Hope Saskatchewan Farm Boy wins the scoring title? Ya. Lets just start a Civil War here on hf all over again. Upset every Member from PQ. You cant be serious?... and here I thought I was the **** disturber on this site...

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02-27-2013, 06:57 PM
  #243
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Nice.

A truly ignorant statement.

More likely the 82 goals in 133 playoff games that make him a legend.
Taken out of context his quote looks dumb, but I see what he's getting at. Obviously Richard is a legend by any standard and deserves to be in the top 5 discussion and I don't think eva suit was suggesting otherwise, but I do think there's a cult of personality that you don't see around, say, a Doug Harvey or even a Bobby Hull. The man, the myth, the legend can overshadow what he actually accomplished (or DIDN'T accomplish). Bring up Jaromir Jagr's 5 Art Rosses to Richard's zero and as a retort it's not unusual to get vague second-hand anecdotes about the fire in Richard's eyes or whatever. Everybody loves Richard and some people worship him... Harvey was an Anglophone in a place where the heroes are mainly Francophone... lots of people dislike Jagr... to me, Richard gets a big boost in perception compared to most other guys in this conversation. Personally I consider Harvey and Beliveau to be the greatest Habs.

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02-27-2013, 07:29 PM
  #244
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Personally I consider Harvey and Beliveau to be the greatest Habs.
Well theres a difference there. I too consider Jean Beliveau the "Greatest Hab Ever" (Harvey falling behind Plante and Richard in 4th spot, and oh, did I mention Im a Leafs fan?) but "Overall Top 5 Ever"? Maurice Richard would be my #5 at minimum. You take Gretzky & Lemieux off the charts, #3 behind Howe in 2nd, Orr in 1st.

I like to separate things by position, eras' & teams & so on, compartmentalize if you will. Push my peas over to the side of the plate. Very very few player transcending generations the way The Rocket did & has. Though it's perhaps a tired cliche', I have spoken with those who faced his "Red Glare" from the blue-line on in, still sends chills up my back. These men were afraid of nothing; but that. You tell me thats nothing but Legend? I tell you your full of ****. Throw Gretzky or Lemieux, Orr or Hull, Bossy or whomever at me as a Goaltender, but Momma, Maurice Richard? That man scares me. Drive your head clean on through the cross bar and into the goal lamp. Your remains nothin but yellow, brown & red stains scraped up with a putty knife from the crease.

The guy was Ashes to Ashes. Make no mistake about that. Total Natural Born Killer. Complete package.

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02-27-2013, 07:38 PM
  #245
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The guy was Ashes to Ashes. Make no mistake about that. Total Natural Born Killer. Complete package.
Ashes to ashes, funk to funky.....

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02-27-2013, 08:08 PM
  #246
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Ashes to ashes, funk to funky.....
Ya, well, from all reports having Maurice Richard coming atcha from the oldtimers who were there, faced him and conveyed it to me, was a total Horror Story. Like Beowulf & Grendel. Like having Rick James & James Brown crashing into your crease in a 72 El Dorado loaded with a set of Steerhorns on the hood.

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02-27-2013, 08:13 PM
  #247
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Ya, well, from all reports having Maurice Richard coming atcha from the oldtimers who were there, faced him and conveyed it to me, was a total Horror Story. Like Beowulf & Grendel. Like having Rick James & James Brown crashing into your crease in a 72 El Dorado loaded with a set of Steerhorns on the hood.
Kind of like looking across the ring at Joe Louis and knowing he wants to make it an early night

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02-27-2013, 08:46 PM
  #248
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Kind of like looking across the ring at Joe Louis and knowing he wants to make it an early night
.... pretty much. Not a real fun opponent.

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02-27-2013, 09:25 PM
  #249
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If you mean the Habs had some sort of first pick of French players, no. That's part of this myth that Montreal had access to any french star they wanted. Every player - french and english - was signed by whichever team found them first. There was no draft. Scouts were sent wherever the team perceived there was talent and signed whoever they liked. Boston found Bobby Orr in a small Ontario town and signed him when he was about 12 years old! Montreal obviously had more scouts near home in Quebec and therefore found more french players, but didn't have any proprietary rights over other teams. They had more french players only because they looked for them and found them, fair and square. If the team had been given any extra status by the league, guys like Jean Ratelle, Bernie Parent, Gilbert Perreault, Richard Martin, etc, etc, would've all been Habs.

For a handful of years in the 40s (I think) and then in the 60s, the league added a 'draft' of leftover players who nobody had signed. Of these 'leftovers', Montreal was given a first-shot at Quebec-born players. That's the genesis of the whole "French-Conspiracy" -- that draft of second-tier players where Montreal was indeed given a break. But here's the bottom line: Not one of those french players from the 40's played even one minute for Montreal. Not one. And in the 60s they got Marc Tardiff and Rejean Houle. Tardiff left to play in the WHA, while Houle was a decent 3rd-line forward. So really, that's it, the whole French-Canadian Conspiracy comes down to Rejean Houle!
Actually you have it wrong, all NHL teams had players, from their early to mid teens in some cases, on their reserve clause lists from the early 40's onwards as I recall.

C1958 might have some specific information on the breakdown of players and leagues in Quebec over that time.

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02-27-2013, 09:37 PM
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intylerwetrust
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Hull.... wouldve had 850+goals had he not gone to the WHA

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