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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread V

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Old
02-27-2013, 06:09 PM
  #126
jkrx
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The Firebirds selects: Bobby Holik, C


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02-27-2013, 06:25 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
What you're saying is false from my experience , very few people ever thought of Turgeon as a potentiel next french-canadien great star.Turgeon wasn't an arrogant or unpleasant guy either , so the fact that nobody (or very few) thought of him as a potentiel french-canadien star despite his numbers is actually a pretty solid indication that something was wrong with this player , especially considering the Montreal fanbase tendency to glorify their french-canadien players.They did it with Carbonneau , they did it with Damphousse , they even did it with Latendresse , but not with Turgeon.Why? Because nobody ever saw a star or someone who could lead the team even if only in an quiet offensive way in him.

The Turgeon case is a tough one to explain , and that's why you managed to get so far with it , because most people are unable to clearly express what we all saw that was wrong with Turgeon.I'm not hating on Turgeon at all , I have no reasons to hate him.This isn't because you compared to Roenick , we had the same discussion last year when I had nobody that really compared to Turgeon.

Of course Turgeon is an ATD player , and was a fine pick when Dreak and vecens24 picked him.
Does anything here even matter? I didn't care about selecting a player who would be popular in Montreal. I don't need a leader. I don't need a star.

The only think I needed to select was a guy who could produce points. Turgeon is my 7th best forward, and he is surrounded by intangibles.

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02-27-2013, 07:01 PM
  #128
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The Edmonton Mercurys are proud to select D Lars-Erik Sjoberg. next pmed.



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Sjoberg was making headlines before coming to North America in 1974. He was named Swedish Player of the Year (1969). In 1973 he helped Sweden capture the silver medal at the World Championships. They followed that up with a bronze in 1974, with Sjoberg named as Best Defenseman and named to World Championship All-Star Team (1974)

Sjoberg joined the Jets in 1974-75. Instantly he put up strong offensive numbers, especially in the assist column. In just 4 full seasons in the WHA (he missed most of the 1978-79 season with a torn Achilles tendon) he scored just 25 goals but 169 assists for 194 points in 295 games. In 1978 he was named as the top defenseman in the WHA that season. While the Hot Line of Hull, Hedberg and Nilsson got all the accolades, it was the nimble and crafty Sjoberg who often heated things up with his brainy game.

A very confident individual, Sjoberg was a great leader, too. In addition to being named as Winnipeg's captain in 1976, he was also named captain of the Swedish national team for the 1976 Canada Cup. Hedberg suggested "Everybody talked about Borje Salming at the '76 Canada Cup, and he was great, but, defensively, Lars-Erik was our best player. You just couldn't beat him because he was such a great skater. He was so quick in the corners and he never made a mistake with the puck. He was our reliable guy back there."
http://winnipegjetslegends.blogspot....k-sjoberg.html

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02-27-2013, 07:32 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
The Firebirds selects: Bobby Holik, C

Nice guy to have on your team with Beliveau, Taylor, Ullman, Stastny in your division. Really like what Holik is capable of.

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02-27-2013, 07:46 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post
Nice guy to have on your team with Beliveau, Taylor, Ullman, Stastny in your division. Really like what Holik is capable of.
Beliveau and Stastny sure, but Taylor?

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02-27-2013, 07:49 PM
  #131
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Beliveau and Stastny sure, but Taylor?
Holik was definitely better against big centers than fast centers

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02-27-2013, 07:50 PM
  #132
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Beliveau and Stastny sure, but Taylor?
Holik could match up with the best of them, are you referring to Taylor's speed being too much for him to handle? Which I can see as a valid point because Holik was more of the type to deal with bigger centres, but still doesn't make Bobby obsolete to shadowing him.

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Holik was definitely better against big centers than fast centers
This is what I believe Dreakmur is trying to get across, which yes is a valid statement.

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02-27-2013, 11:08 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by Velociraptor View Post


I'd say he'll stop more shots than Tretiak with those absurd shin guards.
This pic gets brought up every draft! I was wondering, was this a whole-career thing for him, or just late when he was with Dallas? From the few game action pics I can find, it appears to be just the latter. Regardless, pretty funny.

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Is there a scoring line player other than Turgeon for whom you use per-game stats for?
Serious? Yes, of course.

(Turgeon missed a whole 18 games in those two seasons, combined)

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That's good and all (and I agree that his raw scoring finishes likely underrate him), but how does it make him better than Alfredsson and Hossa, both of whom finish well ahead of him in any commonly used measure of offense.
Am I saying that it definitely does? no... but raw finishes aren't the only thing affected. Adjusted points, raw points, percentages, etc, were all affected by his team, competition and linemate situation. Whatever difference exists between him and Alfie/Hossa in all these measures could be reasonably argued to be negated by these factors.

Unless I missed something, Alfie only led a team in scoring by more than a single point in 2010 (13 points). Hossa led his team in scoring by 2+ points only twice - 2007 (20 points) and 2012 (8 points)

I wish it was always as simple as percentages but the Middleton case is a good example of why it's not.

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What about misconducts? You should discount those too if you're discounting fighting majors.
If you know how to do that, please by my guest.

(unless we're talking about players with a disproportionate amount of misconducts, the method I use to calculate NFPIM/G treats them all the same way)

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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
What you're saying is false from my experience , very few people ever thought of Turgeon as a potentiel next french-canadien great star.Turgeon wasn't an arrogant or unpleasant guy either , so the fact that nobody (or very few) thought of him as a potentiel french-canadien star despite his numbers is actually a pretty solid indication that something was wrong with this player , especially considering the Montreal fanbase tendency to glorify their french-canadien players.They did it with Carbonneau , they did it with Damphousse , they even did it with Latendresse , but not with Turgeon.Why? Because nobody ever saw a star or someone who could lead the team even if only in an quiet offensive way in him.

The Turgeon case is a tough one to explain , and that's why you managed to get so far with it , because most people are unable to clearly express what we all saw that was wrong with Turgeon.I'm not hating on Turgeon at all , I have no reasons to hate him.This isn't because you compared to Roenick , we had the same discussion last year when I had nobody that really compared to Turgeon.

Of course Turgeon is an ATD player , and was a fine pick when Dreak and vecens24 picked him.
like BC said, the Montreal fanbase was absolutely excited about him and had very high hopes.

If there is any other player whose offensive production is outright disvalued, please let me know. It's as though he has the market cornered on being a one-dimensional finesse forward, when in reality there have been plenty of those. And it's not like he was ever called a bad person, bad teammate, dressing room cancer, etc. He was just soft. And that makes his points worth less, apparently.

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Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
Quite frankly there's a few that I like but they're not considered ATD worthy and lordy knows I ain't in the mood for the righteous wrath that doth come down around here....
Good man!

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Old
02-27-2013, 11:22 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
If there is any other player whose offensive production is outright disvalued, please let me know. It's as though he has the market cornered on being a one-dimensional finesse forward, when in reality there have been plenty of those. And it's not like he was ever called a bad person, bad teammate, dressing room cancer, etc. He was just soft. And that makes his points worth less, apparently.
Gordie Drillon just had a rough go of it too. I flipped through one random Hockey Scouting Report (book title) earlier today and it was critical of Turgeon's lack of leadership for what was a supposed franchise player. Not that he'll be reprising that role for Vecens and Dreakmur, but it pertains to how he was perceived by teammates.

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Old
02-27-2013, 11:25 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
Gordie Drillon just had a rough go of it too. I flipped through one random Hockey Scouting Report (book title) earlier today and it was critical of Turgeon's lack of leadership for what was a supposed franchise player. Not that he'll be reprising that role for Vecens and Dreakmur, but it pertains to how he was perceived by teammates.
True about Drillon. Although Drillon was admittedly horrible defensively, which actually caused goals against, so I can see why that takes away from his offense. Although Turgeon was nothing special in his own end, if I was asked to name 30 ATD-caliber forwards who were bad defensively, he wouldn't be one of the first 30 to come to mind.

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02-27-2013, 11:26 PM
  #136
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BC - Please for the love of god, move Harry Howell to your 2nd PP unit or draft a #6 defenseman who can replace Bert Corbeau there. Please, promise me you won't let Bert Corbeau play on the PP.

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02-27-2013, 11:51 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord
Am I saying that it definitely does? no... but raw finishes aren't the only thing affected. Adjusted points, raw points, percentages, etc, were all affected by his team, competition and linemate situation. Whatever difference exists between him and Alfie/Hossa in all these measures could be reasonably argued to be negated by these factors.

Unless I missed something, Alfie only led a team in scoring by more than a single point in 2010 (13 points). Hossa led his team in scoring by 2+ points only twice - 2007 (20 points) and 2012 (8 points)

I wish it was always as simple as percentages but the Middleton case is a good example of why it's not.
Yes, but any analysis has to start with the fact that by whatever method you use -adjusted stats, percentages, top 20 finishes, Middleton's regular season offense looks much worse than Alfredsson or Hossa and a little worse than Elias (who is hurt by team situation at least as much as Middleton was).

I find it really hard to believe that Middleton was a better player than any of them. Yes, he was Mr. Intangibles of the 1980s and curbstomped his divisional foes in the 1983 playoffs, but overall the statistical gap is not small.

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BC - Please for the love of god, move Harry Howell to your 2nd PP unit or draft a #6 defenseman who can replace Bert Corbeau there. Please, promise me you won't let Bert Corbeau play on the PP.
I am certainly not a fan of giving Corbeau a big role in the ATD, but you don't think he can handle 2nd unit PP? I realize his numbers aren't that great, but isn't a lot more is written on his offense than defense (though his hitting is what's talked about the most).

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02-27-2013, 11:55 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
like BC said, the Montreal fanbase was absolutely excited about him and had very high hopes.

If there is any other player whose offensive production is outright disvalued, please let me know. It's as though he has the market cornered on being a one-dimensional finesse forward, when in reality there have been plenty of those. And it's not like he was ever called a bad person, bad teammate, dressing room cancer, etc. He was just soft. And that makes his points worth less, apparently.
The fanbase supposely had very high hopes that strangely disappeared even though Turgeon produced at a 96 pts a season rate.How strange is that? Like you said , he wasn't a bad person , he wasn't a bad teammate , he wasn't a dressing room cancer , he was just soft.Why did the Montreal fanbase abandonned his faith in him becoming a french-canadien hero? Guy Lafleur was soft and he wasn't a great leader either.Countless of examples of soft french-canadien players that were successful with the MTL fanbase , why not Turgeon?

Turgeon wasn't just soft , he was basically a soul-less player.That's the best description , as vague as it is , I can give you of him.He was like a ghost.He compiled his points but his impact still seem like zero even if that's doesnt literally make sense , that's the impression he left , and probably one of the players of all-time that had a lot of talent that gave this impression the most.

I do understand my argumentation sounds weak , but I'm far from the only one that is very skeptical of Turgeon , even when facing his numbers.Something was wrong with that guy.I guess that debate is going nowhere , you'll keep your opinion of him based on his numbers and I'll keep mine based on what I saw with my own eyes.This would be hard to settle.

(Take note that this isn't to say Turgeon was a completely useless player , he was a very good 1st line player even taking everything I've said into consideration)


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02-28-2013, 12:03 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yes, but any analysis has to start with the fact that by whatever method you use -adjusted stats, percentages, top 20 finishes, Middleton's regular season offense looks much worse than Alfredsson or Hossa and a little worse than Elias (who is hurt by team situation at least as much as Middleton was).

I find it really hard to believe that Middleton was a better player than any of them. Yes, he was Mr. Intangibles of the 1980s and curbstomped his divisional foes in the 1983 playoffs, but overall the statistical gap is not small.
Yes, I agree that the analysis would start there, but the team situation would adjust it in his favour from there. Would it adjust it enough? Maybe, maybe not. I do think he was even further stifled offensively than Elias. Was Elias ever close to 5th in the league in points over a 6-year period? And what were the 3 best margins he led his team by?

Quote:
I am certainly not a fan of giving Corbeau a big role in the ATD, but you don't think he can handle 2nd unit PP? I realize his numbers aren't that great, but isn't a lot more is written on his offense than defense (though his hitting is what's talked about the most).
ok. maybe. But I'd still hope to have 3 defenseman better than him for that role (luckily he only needs to have 3 since he has Francis)

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02-28-2013, 12:04 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
The fanbase supposely had very high hopes that strangely disappeared even though Turgeon produced at a 96 pts a season rate.How strange is that? Like you said , he wasn't a bad person , he wasn't a bad teammate , he wasn't a dressing room cancer , he was just soft.Why did the Montreal fanbase abandonned his faith in him becoming a french-canadien hero?

Turgeon wasn't just soft , he was basically a soul-less player.That's the best description , as vague as it is , I can give you of him.He was like a ghost.He compiled his points but his impact still seem like zero even if that's doesnt literally make sense , that's the impression he left , and probably one of the players of all-time that had a lot of talent that gave this impression the most.

I do understand my argumentation sounds weak , but I'm far from the only one that is very skeptical of Turgeon , even when facing his numbers.Something was wrong with that guy.
See, there might actually be something to this, and if there is, it's pretty much impossible to prove or demonstrate in any empirical way. It could also be nothing more than a media-driven narrative that began when he didn't join a brawl at 17 and when he failed to be the saviour of the Canadiens while in his prime.

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02-28-2013, 12:10 AM
  #141
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
See, there might actually be something to this, and if there is, it's pretty much impossible to prove or demonstrate in any empirical way. It could also be nothing more than a media-driven narrative that began when he didn't join a brawl at 17 and when he failed to be the saviour of the Canadiens while in his prime.
I don't recall the medias ever throwing Turgeon under the bus , but that is testing the limit of my memory.

As far as empirical evidence , of course we probably won't find it , ever.Maybe we'll put more precise words on that feeling people had of Turgeon , but that's probably the best we could manage.

One thing though , I'm not buying into the whole ''Turgeon isn't defended like the others because he was never THE player of any particular team due to his career path''.This happened to many other players that left good impressions or bad impressions or any kind of impressions on multiple teams.It's like Turgeon never went to New York or Buffalo.


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02-28-2013, 12:17 AM
  #142
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The thing about Middleton is, heís a player whose point totals (and adjustments applied to them) really underrate him. He played his whole career on a strong defensive team, in the most competitive and most defensive division, and usually led his teamís forwards in points, by a good margin. This is exactly what is used (correctly) to boost Patrik Elias.
I agree with you on Middleton, but while you and Reen are on the topic, you do realize that most of the above is true of Jeremy Roenick as well, right? The times Roenick led his team in scoring, and by what margin:

Roenick:

1991-92 (+29)
1992-93 (+34)
1993-94 (+37)
1998-99 (+4)
1999-00 (+27)
2000-01 (+5)
2001-02 (+1)
2002-03 (+7)

and now Elias:

1999-00 (+2)
2000-01 (+13)
2001-02 (+7)
2002-03 (+2)
2003-04 (+9)
2006-07 (+7)
2010-11 (+2)

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02-28-2013, 12:18 AM
  #143
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I do think he was even further stifled offensively than Elias.
How? Boston was a pretty defensive team, but they weren't Philadelphia or Montreal of the time period. And he had Ray Bourque outletting him the puck.

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Was Elias ever close to 5th in the league in points over a 6-year period?
Probably not, but I really don't care to check, since it would be time consuming and something of trivia.

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And what were the 3 best margins he led his team by?
Elias was 1st or 2nd in team scoring every season starting in 2000, except 2006 and 2010 when he missed significant time. These are the margins Elias led the team by

2000: 72-70
2001: 96-83
2002: 61-54
2003: 57-55
2004: 81-70
2007: 69-62
2011: 62-60

He was 2nd in team scoring in 2008, 2009, and 2012, and missed significant time in 2006 and 2010.

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02-28-2013, 12:18 AM
  #144
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I don't recall the medias ever throwing Turgeon under the bus , but that is testing the limit of my memory.

As far as empirical evidence , of course we probably won't find it , ever.Maybe we'll put more precise words on that feeling people had of Turgeon , but that's probably the best we could manage.

One thing though , I'm not buying into the whole ''Turgeon isn't defended like the others because he was never THE player of any particular team due to his career path''.This happened to many other players that left good impressions or bad impressions or whatever , any kind of impressions on multiple teams (Like Roenick ).It's like Turgeon never went to New York or Buffalo.
What you're saying is that you didn't like Turgeon in Montreal, so you are going to ignore everything he accomplished?

You may not like his style. You may not like his personality. You absolutely cannot deny his offensive accomplishments.

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02-28-2013, 12:21 AM
  #145
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What you're saying is that you didn't like Turgeon in Montreal, so you are going to ignore everything he accomplished?

You may not like his style. You may not like his personality. You absolutely cannot deny his offensive accomplishments.
I forgot you had Turgeon (LOL) , I was more facing seventieslord's overall conclusions of Turgeon than facing what Turgeon represented for your team.Turgeon was a fine pick.

I have nothing against Turgeon's personality , I'm not even sure he had one (LOL).I'm not saying I didn't like him in Montreal , I'm saying he was a ghost everywhere he went.His offensive accomplishments won't be denied.

I mean we could maybe try to start a thread on the Buffalo and NYI board just to try to have some perspective on what some 30+ years old fans thought of him , just to clarify the picture a little bit. EDIT: (just did , we'll see if we can get some perspective on the issue from fans of those two teams).


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02-28-2013, 12:21 AM
  #146
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I agree with you on Middleton, but while you and Reen are on the topic, you do realize that most of the above is true of Jeremy Roenick as well, right? The times Roenick led his team in scoring, and by what margin:

Roenick:

1991-92 (+29)
1992-93 (+34)
1993-94 (+37)
1998-99 (+4)
1999-00 (+27)
2000-01 (+5)
2001-02 (+1)
2002-03 (+7)

and now Elias:

1999-00 (+2)
2000-01 (+13)
2001-02 (+7)
2002-03 (+2)
2003-04 (+9)
2006-07 (+7)
2010-11 (+2)
How often was Roenick on a team that was significantly more defensive-minded than the rest of the league? That's where Elias and apparently Middelton are underrated by their raw finishes. I really don't know if I care if a player led a team in scoring that wasn't known specifically for holding back their scoring.

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02-28-2013, 12:21 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
If I gave you a spreadsheet with all scoring lines in nhl history would that help? you can just fill in each benchmark and run a formula from there. After that, counting players is easy, even if done manually.
That would be great. I'll PM you my e-mail. No pron spam!

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02-28-2013, 12:26 AM
  #148
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How often was Roenick on a team that was significantly more defensive-minded than the rest of the league?
When he was in Chicago. From 1990-91 to 1993-94 (basically, Roenick's good years in Chicago), the Hawks finished 1st, 2nd, 1st, 5th in league goals-against. The offense was basically Roenick carrying a bunch of schleps on a very good defensive team, not at all unlike Middleton's Bruins.

In Phoenix, his teams were generally more suck-minded that the rest of the league, but I wouldn't say they were all that great defensively.

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02-28-2013, 12:32 AM
  #149
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I forgot you had Turgeon (LOL) , I was more facing seventieslord's overall conclusions of Turgeon than facing what Turgeon represented for your team.Turgeon was a fine pick.

I have nothing against Turgeon's personality , I'm not even sure he had one (LOL).I'm not saying I didn't like him in Montreal , I'm saying he was a ghost everywhere he went.His offensive accomplishments won't be denied.

I mean we could maybe try to start a thread on the Buffalo and NYI board just to try to have some perspective on what some 30+ years old fans thought of him , just to clarify the picture a little bit. EDIT: (just did , we'll see if we can get some perspective on the issue from fans of those two teams).
Doesn't matter. They can trash him all they want. It doesn't change his offensive accomplishments.

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02-28-2013, 12:33 AM
  #150
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Doesn't matter. They can trash him all they want. It doesn't change his offensive accomplishments.
Nobody denied Turgeon's raw offensive stats.

Did I?

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