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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread V

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Old
02-28-2013, 12:38 AM
  #151
BubbaBoot
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post

Good man!
It's quite silly actually.....I do have other responsibilities.

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02-28-2013, 12:41 AM
  #152
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Yeah, i especially remember being quite impressed by Turgeons playmaking late in his career, although he was often injured then. Maybe he was like that all the time.

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02-28-2013, 12:43 AM
  #153
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Turgeon was a very talented player.

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02-28-2013, 01:01 AM
  #154
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I remember loving Turgeon when he was a Blue. That said, I was quite young (I'm 19)

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02-28-2013, 01:13 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Nobody denied Turgeon's raw offensive stats.

Did I?
Yeah, you keep going back to the meaningless points argument.

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02-28-2013, 01:13 AM
  #156
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Yeah, you keep going back to the meaningless points argument.
That doesn't take his points away.

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02-28-2013, 01:20 AM
  #157
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How? Boston was a pretty defensive team, but they weren't Philadelphia or Montreal of the time period. And he had Ray Bourque outletting him the puck.
I think they would be classed a "defense first" team, however. And most of the time, the other forwards that team had was a joke.

Quote:
Probably not, but I really don't care to check, since it would be time consuming and something of trivia.

Elias was 1st or 2nd in team scoring every season starting in 2000, except 2006 and 2010 when he missed significant time. These are the margins Elias led the team by

2000: 72-70
2001: 96-83
2002: 61-54
2003: 57-55
2004: 81-70
2007: 69-62
2011: 62-60

He was 2nd in team scoring in 2008, 2009, and 2012, and missed significant time in 2006 and 2010.
Yeah, I can't say I'm all that convinced that Elias was the greater talent.

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
I agree with you on Middleton, but while you and Reen are on the topic, you do realize that most of the above is true of Jeremy Roenick as well, right? The times Roenick led his team in scoring, and by what margin:

Roenick:

1991-92 (+29)
1992-93 (+34)
1993-94 (+37)
1998-99 (+4)
1999-00 (+27)
2000-01 (+5)
2001-02 (+1)
2002-03 (+7)

and now Elias:

1999-00 (+2)
2000-01 (+13)
2001-02 (+7)
2002-03 (+2)
2003-04 (+9)
2006-07 (+7)
2010-11 (+2)
18, 24, 15, 45, 19, 9... guess who that is!

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I mean we could maybe try to start a thread on the Buffalo and NYI board just to try to have some perspective on what some 30+ years old fans thought of him , just to clarify the picture a little bit. EDIT: (just did , we'll see if we can get some perspective on the issue from fans of those two teams).
Not surprisingly, it's started out pretty well for him on the Island. He was incredibly dominant there. In Buffalo he earned his "Tin Man" name, and may not come out as nice there.

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That would be great. I'll PM you my e-mail. No pron spam!
But there are all kinds of horny housewives waiting to turn you on!

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Old
02-28-2013, 01:32 AM
  #158
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That doesn't take his points away.
It does devalue them.

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Old
02-28-2013, 01:52 AM
  #159
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Not to get us a way from the annual Turgeon ****storm, but comments on two other guys:

1) Albert Leduc. He's one of the main reasons I'm skeptical of what Sturminator at least once called "the increasing decadence of ATD bios" - long lines of glowing quotes about a player. I completely bought Leaf Forever's Leduc bio from ATD12 and decided he would be an excellent #5 the follpwing draft. Then sometime during the ATD finals (with Leduc still as my #5), Joe Pelletier came out with a new bio of Leduc that basically said that his "Battleship" nickname was because it took him a long time to get up to speed and couldn't really stop, so he crashed around into everything, whether it be players, boards, whatever. Then later, information was presented that Leduc spent most of his career as a spare which is where all the quotes about the crowd cheering when he came onto the ice came from. I'm not sure where Leduc should be drafted, but I doubt it should be here.

2) Lars Erik Sjoberg - I think there's a real chance this guy could be underrated. I know Sturm called him a below average #4 last time, but i really think with a good profile his value could increase quite a bit... or maybe not.

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02-28-2013, 01:56 AM
  #160
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I'll give my two cents on Turgeon as an Islander:

- first things first, Pierre Turgeon improved New York's powerplay considerably. He came to a powerplay headlined by such luminaries as Patrick Flatley and Brad Dalgarno, and immediately made them respectable. The powerplay went from being a horrible joke to pretty average, and that was mainly because of Turgeon.

- Isles fans, when he was not setting up scores on the powerplay, never really cared much for Turgeon in spite of what he brought to the team, for a few reasons, I think.

1) he was guilty of the terrible crime of not being Pat Lafontaine.

2) he had that reputation coming from Buffalo of being soft, and well...that was simply not Islanders hockey.

3) Turgeon was not a particularly good even-strength player on the Island. He didn't really fit into Arbour's checking system, wasn't in the slightest bit physical, and basically took every shift like he was on a powerplay - pecking around the perimeter and trying to make a pretty backdoor pass or set up a one-timer while his linemates did all the work. This was stylistically not what Isles fans were accustomed to, but it is also a legitimate gripe about Turgeon's play. I would say that Turgeon was only New York's best even-strength player in one of his three years on the Island (the one huge scoring season). Other than that, Steve Thomas was definitely better.

I basically view Turgeon as a better version of Brad Richards: a great powerplay ringer (on the half-boards rather than the point), who is a very ho-hum even-strength player for a 2nd line at the ATD level. He's consistently a good value because he always seems to go lower than Richards for some strange reason and I think the hate and the "Tin Man" talk is overblown, but Turgeon is one of those guys who played even-strength hockey like thought he was on a powerplay, and those guys are of limited value. For what it's worth, the Islanders had a bad run of that type of player for a while there after Lafontaine was traded. Ziggy Palffy was cut from the same cloth, though he at least backchecked some.

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02-28-2013, 02:04 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I completely bought Leaf Forever's Leduc bio from ATD12 and decided he would be an excellent #5 the follpwing draft.
Never trust what a Toronto fan says about his players. As a consequence of liking the Leafs, they have a great deal of practice in polishing turds. Leduc is likely an MLD player.

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Old
02-28-2013, 02:06 AM
  #162
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The Whalers select Harry Lumley, G


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Old
02-28-2013, 02:17 AM
  #163
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I basically view Turgeon as a better version of Brad Richards: a great powerplay ringer (on the half-boards rather than the point), who is a very ho-hum even-strength player for a 2nd line at the ATD level. He's consistently a good value because he always seems to go lower than Richards for some strange reason and I think the hate and the "Tin Man" talk is overblown, but Turgeon is one of those guys who played even-strength hockey like thought he was on a powerplay, and those guys are of limited value. For what it's worth, the Islanders had a bad run of that type of player for a while there after Lafontaine was traded. Ziggy Palffy was cut from the same cloth, though he at least backchecked some.
I thought Turgeon was a bit ahead of Richards as a player back in 2011, but is Richards still behind? He's had some strong play since then.

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02-28-2013, 02:24 AM
  #164
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I thought Turgeon was a bit ahead of Richards as a player back in 2011, but is Richards still behind? He's had some strong play since then.
Eh...they may be close at this point, but a four round gap between them is still madness. Of course, Richards should not go in the 10th round, but that is another conversation.

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02-28-2013, 02:24 AM
  #165
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I thought Turgeon was a bit ahead of Richards as a player back in 2011, but is Richards still behind? He's had some strong play since then.
What? Turgeon easily beats Richards.

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02-28-2013, 02:26 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Other than that, Steve Thomas was definitely better.
Are you sure about that? The on-ice numbers don't seem to support that.


1992
Turgeon: 111 total goals - 41 pp goals = 70
Thomas: 93 total goals - 33 pp goals = 60

1993
Turgeon: 166 total goals - 76 pp goals = 90
Thomas: 131 total goals - 58 pp goals = 73

1994
Turgeon: 120 total goals - 46 pp goals = 74
Thomas: 103 total goals - 45 pp goals = 58

1995
Turgeon: 54 total goals - 18 pp goals = 36
Thomas: 33 total goals - 13 pp goals = 20

So unless my numbers are off, Turgeon has 270 non-PP points over and Thomas had 211.

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Old
02-28-2013, 02:32 AM
  #167
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Are you sure about that? The on-ice numbers don't seem to support that.

So unless my numbers are off, Turgeon has 270 non-PP points over and Thomas had 211.
Yes, and Thomas did most of the digging and checking for the line. I am aware of their respective scoring feats, and I'm telling you that for two out of the three seasons that they played together, Thomas was the better even-strength player.

I'll give Turgeon credit, though...those were also Thomas' best offensive seasons playing on a line with Pierre, and I don't think it is a coincidence.

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02-28-2013, 02:38 AM
  #168
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The Whalers select Harry Lumley, G

I offer you this

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Old
02-28-2013, 02:38 AM
  #169
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Sturm and dreak, undrafted much?

And bluesfan, thanks for the bio.

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02-28-2013, 02:46 AM
  #170
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Doesn't matter. They can trash him all they want. It doesn't change his offensive accomplishments.
Agreed. I'll compare players from the post-O6 when scoring was higher. Turgeon played played from 87-07. Roenick played from 88-09. Turgeon had more goals. Kurri played from 80-98 and played with Gretzky. Turgeon had more assists. Perreault played from 70-87. Turgeon had more points. If we had a 32 team post-O6 ATD and offense was the only factor we looked at in our first line centers, Turgeon would be in my top 32 centers draft list.

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02-28-2013, 02:50 AM
  #171
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Sturm and dreak, undrafted much?
Isn't S_T usually an MLD player? I'll stop, but I'm not going to feel too bad about it. Or were you looking at Brad Dalgarno? He was a wicked good diver.

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02-28-2013, 02:55 AM
  #172
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What? Turgeon easily beats Richards.
3 top 10 finishes for Richards vs 2 for Turgeon plus a Conn Smythe for Richards, plus while Richards isn't an intangibles beast by any stretch (it was hilarious seeing one of his previous owners try to portray him as such), he's still better than Turgeon in things that don't involve putting up points. Turgeon may very well be ahead of Richards (he definitely beats him in longevity as an impact player, which I'm sure VS2 scores would show), but is it really by that much?

I think both guys are near the top of the "Hall of Very Good" class of centers.

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02-28-2013, 02:56 AM
  #173
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Isn't S_T usually an MLD player? I'll stop, but I'm not going to feel too bad about it. Or were you looking at Brad Dalgarno? He was a wicked good diver.
I wouldn't put it past some Leafs fans to draft him.

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02-28-2013, 02:57 AM
  #174
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
3 top 10 finishes for Richards vs 2 for Turgeon plus a Conn Smythe for Richards, plus while Richards isn't an intangibles beast by any stretch (it was hilarious seeing one of his previous owners try to portray him as such), he's still better than Turgeon in things that don't involve putting up points. Turgeon may very well be ahead of Richards (he definitely beats him in longevity as an impact player, which I'm sure VS2 scores would show), but is it really by that much?

I think both guys are near the top of the "Hall of Very Good" class of centers.
Richards is closer to Staal than Turgeon, just look at their adjusted points.

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02-28-2013, 03:10 AM
  #175
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Richards is closer to Staal than Turgeon, just look at their adjusted points.
Turgeon is very flattered by adjusted points in that his best season was in 1992-93, (since stars scored a disproportionately high amount of league offense in that year, but adjusted points is adjusted to league average). This is why VS2 is superior to adjusted points for star level players, even if the kinks haven't been worked out yet. Anyway, here are adjusted points by season since I find calculating VS2 to be tedious:

Staal: 98, 89, 82, 78, 77, 75, 71
Richards: 96, 91, 88, 83, 82, 73, 71, 71, 67, 67, 50
Turgeon 106* 92, 89, 89, 88, 86, 84, 80, 78, 74, 72, 72, 71, 53

*All adjusted points of first liners are highly inflated in 1992-93, but a pretty big margin.

Turgeon is definitely still ahead in regular season offense, even if his best 3 seasons aren't that different from Richards.' I think Richards is closer to Turgeon than he is to Staal though, and I do think Richards is better than Turgeon in everything that isn't regular season offense.

I honestly don't know who I would take between Richards and Turgeon, to be honest. Maybe that's unfair to Turgeon who did put up superior regular season numbers from their 4th best seasons on, but in a team building exercise like this... I guess I would say Turgeon is more of an impact player, but he also has to be insulated.

Edit: On the other hand, just saying the words "Turgeon" and "impact player" in the same sentence feels wrong.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-28-2013 at 03:19 AM.
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