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Old
02-27-2013, 12:29 PM
  #126
SabreBlood
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
My point was expecting the team prior to the season to waive or trade players to open up a spot for a 6/7dman like Pardy is a bit much. Now is a different story.
It was a different story weeks ago.

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02-27-2013, 12:31 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Completely different players
Completely different situations/timing
Completely different resumes

... but please, take my comments and launch into your own agenda... by all means.
What on earth are you talking about? You may want to stop trying to read so much into my posts like you have been lately.


You said Pardy is another example of an outsider not being given a chance. Sulzer got a chance and he was an outsider when he got here. They were both 6/7 NHL dmen before getting here. Thats all I meant.

Whats so crazy or agenda pushing about that?


Last edited by joshjull: 02-27-2013 at 12:39 PM.
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Old
02-27-2013, 12:39 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
You said Pardy is another example of an outsider not being given a chance. Sulzer got a chance and he was an outsider when he got here. They were both 6/7 NHL dmen before getting here.
Pardy proved his meddle on February 5th.

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02-27-2013, 12:40 PM
  #129
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It was a different story weeks ago.
True


I would love to see Sulzer, Leo and Brennan off this roster but it ain't happening. Regier doesn't roll that way.

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02-27-2013, 01:55 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
You keep using advanced stats as if it's the only thing that matters. There are so many more variables to this sport. Variables that aren't necessarily measured by a mathmatical equation. There are differences in the philosophies of the two head coaches this team has had. Ron Rolston recognizes much of what you have problems with.
We have differing methodologies, and there's no clearer evidence than this excerpt. You believe that I'm "missing something" about Hecht's game. It lies in the subjective, and it pisses you off to no end that I'm just not seeing it. I think you're missing something: the cold, hard fact that the team doesn't get scored on much when Hecht is on the ice--be it the PK or at ES.

To me, that has value. To you, that value--if you believe there's any to it, and I'm not so sure--is negated because of the subjective aspects of his game that you find so irritating.

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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
For instance, last night, he didn't waste Pominville and Hodgson on the PK, unless he absolutely had to. The mini-parade to the penalty box was well under-way before he used them to penalty kill. And what's really interesting about that, is that Hecht STILL wasn't utilized there, regardless of what the advanced stat sheet ever said about it, which Ron Rolston is undoubtedly aware of.
That was smart of him to use Pominville and Hodgson less on the PK. Frankly, they've sucked there by any objective measure. They shouldn't be on it. Period. It was not intelligent of Rolston to remove Hecht from the PK. It is my belief that, based on the objective evidence available, the PK will be worse with Hodgson and Pominville on it, while Hecht is off of it.

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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
Did you notice that Rolston's top penalty killing forwards are now Porter, Kaleta, Ott, and Stafford? In that order, might I add. Hodgson and Pominville are forward PK line 3 for Ron Rolston. Hecht was no where to be found, and the PK was simply better.
One-game sample size.

Your logic is unsound. You continue to argue that PK was better because Hecht was not on it--at least that is what you're pawing at, even if you haven't come out and said it directly. As if to suggest that if Hecht was in the place of Hodgson or Pominville, the results would not have been the same.


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Even with a player that you scoffed at when I mentioned bringing him up, playing more PK minutes than any other forward on the team.
I don't think Kevin Porter is anything more than a replacement-level player. This is, apparently, crazy talk to you. He was pretty good last night. He was a non-factor his first two games.

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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
Let's see where the new and improved PK ranks after 17 more games. It will continue to improve.
It might, and it should by merely using Pardy on the PK instead of Leo/Sulzer and reducing the PK time of Hodgson and Pominville. And it'll be even better if Hecht is out there instead of guys like Hodgson and Pominville, who've been dreadful on the PK.

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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
I'm sure that has something to do with it. You know what else has to do with it? The ridiculous amount of offensively talented players they have on the ice during any given PP. This is irrelevant. The point of the conversation revolves around Hecht's usefullness and importance to the team.
When Hecht is on the ice at ES, we score more than we allow. You can say that about three players on this team: Hecht, Ott, and Vanek. He's a 4th line player making $1m. Yet you expect more from the guy. For a team in 29th place in the NHL, you've identified him as the problem on this club: a 4th line role player who is a good PKer and doesn't get scored on much at ES.

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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
Every day that Rolston has been here, Hecht has been pushed further and further down the depth chart. Eventually, he'll be out. If/when Leino comes back, who's the odd man out? Hecht is far more likely to be that than Porter. Why is that? Because this coach recognizes what Ruff clearly couldn't.
Fallacy of false authority. We should merely accept that it's right because Ron Rolston is doing it? (Or because it worked in one single game.)

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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
As mentioned above, Rolston knows what's up; and Kaleta is being used heavily on Ron's PK. His #1 unit is Porter, Kaleta, Regehr, and Weber.
As Kaleta should be. Because Rolston is correct in doing one thing (playing Kaleta more) doesn't foreclose the possibility that he's incorrect in doing something else (playing guys like Hodgson and Pominville over Hecht).

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Originally Posted by SabreBlood View Post
He is absolutely a problem. For you to continue to argue that he some how makes this team better is pure entertainment.
Sure he is. Of the six regular PKers, the one who's on the ice for the 5th most amount of goals was the problem with the PK. That's your logic. A 4th liner making $1m and winning at ES is the problem.

Your clear bias is all that's entertaining with this to-and-fro.

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Old
02-27-2013, 02:20 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Chainshot View Post
I was all for sending Foligno down earlier in the season when the team needed a collective kick in the pants during their initial losing streak. At this point, he could use the wake-up call. They're giving him the Stafford treatment if one recalls how they dealt with Stafford in his second full season -- pencilled in based on a small production sample from the previous year. He struggled like one could expect a second year player to do and right now, Foligno is doing the same. Perhaps the place to look (again) is at the top of the hockey department food chain, at the man in charge.
Huge difference between Stafford at the stage of his career that Foligno's at now is expectations/style. Stafford was drafted as - and played like as a rookie - a goalscoring finisher. He was expected to carry that over.

Foligno's recipe for success calls for much less in terms of expectations: go north to south, and go through people in doing so. Impose your will physically and on the forecheck, and offense (secondary) is a welcomed bonus. He now believes he can stand still, dangle his face off, and be successful without skating hard, moving the puck, forechecking, or working.

It's pathetic. I used the word 'complacency' at the beginning of the year, but it's greater and more problematic than that now. I don't know if I have a good word for him at the moment.

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02-27-2013, 02:25 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Huge difference between Stafford at the stage of his career that Foligno's at now is expectations/style. Stafford was drafted as - and played like as a rookie - a goalscoring finisher. He was expected to carry that over.

Foligno's recipe for success calls for much less in terms of expectations: go north to south, and go through people in doing so. Impose your will physically and on the forecheck, and offense (secondary) is a welcomed bonus. He now believes he can stand still, dangle his face off, and be successful without skating hard, moving the puck, forechecking, or working.

It's pathetic. I used the word 'complacency' at the beginning of the year, but it's greater and more problematic than that now. I don't know if I have a good word for him at the moment.
If Leino indeed does return this season, Foligno's the guy that should go down to open up a roster spot.

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02-27-2013, 02:27 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Huge difference between Stafford at the stage of his career that Foligno's at now is expectations/style. Stafford was drafted as - and played like as a rookie - a goalscoring finisher. He was expected to carry that over.

Foligno's recipe for success calls for much less in terms of expectations: go north to south, and go through people in doing so. Impose your will physically and on the forecheck, and offense (secondary) is a welcomed bonus. He now believes he can stand still, dangle his face off, and be successful without skating hard, moving the puck, forechecking, or working.

It's pathetic. I used the word 'complacency' at the beginning of the year, but it's greater and more problematic than that now. I don't know if I have a good word for him at the moment.
It could be definition of role and direction from behind the bench. Rolston had him last year and turned him out after a rough start, I suppose Regier will bank on Rolston doing the same this season as well. He's not playing like we know him to from when he's successful... then again, most of the team isn't.

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Old
02-27-2013, 02:35 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
True


I would love to see Sulzer, Leo and Brennan off this roster but it ain't happening. Regier doesn't roll that way.
Sulzer has worn off for me. I like him as a 7. But we've got more than enough depth going forward with guys like McNabb and Pysyk en route. I'd move him at the deadline for someone looking for a little depth.

Brennan should be moved ASAP. Not enough NHL calibur O to go with none existant D. Sure he can snipe in the AHL with his shot, but just like Mancari he can't get it off quick enough in the bigs.

Leo is a personal fav of mine and I was 100% in the re-sign him camp before the season. Granted, he was horrid to start, but before his recent injury I thought he was picking his game up a bit.

I feel he's too far into the majority of this board's doghouse to ever have people agree with me on this, but I'd welcome him back on a short 1 or 2 year deal around 2.5-2.75 per. That being said, I wouldn't be too disappointed if he were moved for a solid piece at the deadline if need be. I do still believe he's a useful piece going forward.

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Old
02-27-2013, 02:45 PM
  #135
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Leopold stopped having a spot on the roster when we signed Ehrhoff. He and Myers make up the right side of the top four, and each should ideally be paired with a defensive defenseman. Leo isn't that. In the rare instances Hoff and Myers play together, the team needs the other top four pairing to be a shutdown pairing, and Leopold has the same issue. He's an overpriced #5 on this team right now, with injury being the only way for him to move into his ideal spot as a poor man's Ehrhoff.

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02-27-2013, 02:46 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Huge difference between Stafford at the stage of his career that Foligno's at now is expectations/style. Stafford was drafted as - and played like as a rookie - a goalscoring finisher. He was expected to carry that over.

Foligno's recipe for success calls for much less in terms of expectations: go north to south, and go through people in doing so. Impose your will physically and on the forecheck, and offense (secondary) is a welcomed bonus. He now believes he can stand still, dangle his face off, and be successful without skating hard, moving the puck, forechecking, or working.

It's pathetic. I used the word 'complacency' at the beginning of the year, but it's greater and more problematic than that now. I don't know if I have a good word for him at the moment.
I think the issue with foligno might have been him starting out against lesser competition in the AHL this year. I went to one of the games at the FNC and noticed way too much of what he's doing now. Maybe he was getting away with all the dangling at that level and thought it could translate back here? Whatever the case is, they need to straighten him out ASAP. When he's on his game, he gives ennis more room to operate and helps keep the puck in the offensive zone. Or he can be a great 3rd line energy player

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02-27-2013, 04:09 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by kirby11 View Post
I think the issue with foligno might have been him starting out against lesser competition in the AHL this year. I went to one of the games at the FNC and noticed way too much of what he's doing now. Maybe he was getting away with all the dangling at that level and thought it could translate back here? Whatever the case is, they need to straighten him out ASAP. When he's on his game, he gives ennis more room to operate and helps keep the puck in the offensive zone. Or he can be a great 3rd line energy player
No, he wasn't. His game was straight lines and physical play, being a road-grader out there. His success last season was simple hockey -- hustle to the puck, win the puck, get the puck to Ennis, go to the net. That was what worked for him with the Wolves, and then again when things started to click with the Amerks last December onward. Simple hockey. None of this one-man-show danglefests we're seeing now. Yes, he has some moves, perhaps more than even he knows. No, he should not be getting away from what worked to try them most of the puck possessions he has.

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Old
02-27-2013, 05:23 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by ZZamboni View Post
Yea but at least you usually write a brief GBU, if not a longer one. Wins or losses. And if you don't, it certainly isn't a pattern.

I think you can guess as to who I mean. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed the "silence" during wins, and the diarrhea of the keyboard during losses.
??? I hope I'm not that silent person ?????

I didn't see last nights game due to my men's league game.

Almost like the Sabres's... we've got a 2 game winning streak going! Longest of the season!

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02-27-2013, 05:45 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by littletonhockeycoach View Post
??? I hope I'm not that silent person ?????

I didn't see last nights game due to my men's league game.

Almost like the Sabres's... we've got a 2 game winning streak going! Longest of the season!
no not you bro.

Two game win streak? Alright

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02-27-2013, 05:47 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
The edit in my previous post is what I think Weber is on his game. I don't really expect that guy to consistently bail out teammates not doing their job defensively.
I don't expect him to either, just stating why I think his game suffers at times.

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02-27-2013, 06:01 PM
  #141
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no not you bro.

Two game win streak? Alright
Got to share this with you all... The game went to a shoot out. The other team has a ringer (more than one) in his late 20's that likes to dangle through everyone. He takes his turn 1 on 0 and works toward our goalie (my son) showing off all of his stickhandling skills....

Our goalie gets pissed and takes 3 gigantic quick strides and poke checks this clown while the DA has his head down... Puck gets sent flying off and the shooter stands there looking like a dumb ***.

Reminded me of the Raiders movie when the muslim swordsman shows off all of his fancy moves and Indiana Jones takes out his pistol and shoots him between the eyes......

Classic!

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02-27-2013, 07:20 PM
  #142
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We deserved to get blown out - the win means little to me. Miller somehow only let 1 get by him despite the brutal coverage around him.

The only positives I can take away from this team at the moment:

-Vanek is having a very productive season.
-Hodgson is showing positive signs although still has BAD games. I'm (very) cautiously optimistic. Shocked to see he has 0 PP points...
-Kaleta is a warrior.


That's about it.

I don't care that Myers blasted that puck into an empty net - his play is absolutely terrible for the most part.

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02-27-2013, 08:29 PM
  #143
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I'm just happy for a win and while I saw some mistakes and fails, I saw some rays of sunshine too..

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02-27-2013, 08:32 PM
  #144
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We have differing methodologies, and there's no clearer evidence than this excerpt. You believe that I'm "missing something" about Hecht's game. It lies in the subjective, and it pisses you off to no end that I'm just not seeing it. I think you're missing something: the cold, hard fact that the team doesn't get scored on much when Hecht is on the ice--be it the PK or at ES.

To me, that has value. To you, that value--if you believe there's any to it, and I'm not so sure--is negated because of the subjective aspects of his game that you find so irritating.
That's pretty much it, in a nutshell. Allthough I'm not pissed off at you or anyone else I converse with about the entire idea of a chronically concussed 35 year old, that hadn't been himself on the ice for about two years prior to this season.

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That was smart of him to use Pominville and Hodgson less on the PK. Frankly, they've sucked there by any objective measure. They shouldn't be on it. Period. It was not intelligent of Rolston to remove Hecht from the PK. It is my belief that, based on the objective evidence available, the PK will be worse with Hodgson and Pominville on it, while Hecht is off of it.
It was intelligent to remove Hecht from it, because going forward, he's likely not going to be around. Nevermind he never should have been here in the first place.

Pominville has typically been a very good penalty killer in the past. I'm not so sure what's gone on with him this season. But perhaps it was the coaching. Ruff has usually had very good penalty killing teams. But just about everything had been suffering during this season and last.

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Your logic is unsound. You continue to argue that PK was better because Hecht was not on it--at least that is what you're pawing at, even if you haven't come out and said it directly. As if to suggest that if Hecht was in the place of Hodgson or Pominville, the results would not have been the same.
It may have been the same result. Maybe. But I will argue the suggestion that I'm debating that the PK was better simply because Hecht wasn't utilized there. I believe the PK is better because we have a new coach, #1. A new coach that happens to be leaning on different players, among other things.

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I don't think Kevin Porter is anything more than a replacement-level player. This is, apparently, crazy talk to you. He was pretty good last night. He was a non-factor his first two games.
It's not crazy talk to me. I'm quite glad he's getting a chance, and I agree he wasn't really a factor in his first two games. He's settling in just like Rolston is. As he gets more comfortable, the better he'll be. Last night was a great glimpse of what he can do for this team moving forward. Same with the coach.

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It might, and it should by merely using Pardy on the PK instead of Leo/Sulzer and reducing the PK time of Hodgson and Pominville. And it'll be even better if Hecht is out there instead of guys like Hodgson and Pominville, who've been dreadful on the PK.
If Ron doesn't want to use Hecht on his 3rd line PK, I'm totally fine with it. Hecht's career actually ended prior to this year. He shouldn't be here. I know I've said that multiple times. It's really just that simple.

Quote:
When Hecht is on the ice at ES, we score more than we allow. You can say that about three players on this team: Hecht, Ott, and Vanek. He's a 4th line player making $1m. Yet you expect more from the guy. For a team in 29th place in the NHL, you've identified him as the problem on this club: a 4th line role player who is a good PKer and doesn't get scored on much at ES.
No. I don't identify Hecht as the problem of this team. I identified Ruff as the problem with his team. Hecht is a symptom of the greater problem, which has since been removed. The jury is still out on Darcy. But showing he was finally capable of moving from Ruff was huge.

Ruff's role for Hecht was far more than a "4th liner role player".

Giving that amount of shifts to a player that you just called a "4th line role player", literally hurt the Sabres chances to win hockey games. With a different heach coach, Hecht's role has been greatly reduced. That's not a coincidence.

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Fallacy of false authority. We should merely accept that it's right because Ron Rolston is doing it? (Or because it worked in one single game.)
Of course I can't prove this, but I highly doubt Ron Rolston is the only coach that would have came in here and phased Hecht out this quickly. Ruff was simply wrong about him.

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As Kaleta should be. Because Rolston is correct in doing one thing (playing Kaleta more) doesn't foreclose the possibility that he's incorrect in doing something else (playing guys like Hodgson and Pominville over Hecht).
On his 3rd PK unit? You couldn't reach any higher.

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Sure he is. Of the six regular PKers, the one who's on the ice for the 5th most amount of goals was the problem with the PK. That's your logic. A 4th liner making $1m and winning at ES is the problem.
Again, no. Just 'A' problem. And there were many. Ruff leaned on the wrong players quite often in his final years here.

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Your clear bias is all that's entertaining with this to-and-fro.
It's fun.


Last edited by SabreBlood: 02-27-2013 at 08:38 PM.
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02-27-2013, 09:54 PM
  #145
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Completely different players
Completely different situations/timing
Completely different resumes

... but please, take my comments and launch into your own agenda... by all means.

Yeah well you can't bash Ruff when it comes to Pardy..... Ruff never got a chance to see him...there was no training camp.... the fact that Brennan was up over him was because of Brennans contract situation as far as being waived...Ruff wanted a good look at him first....there is no conspiracy about "Ruff not giving outsiders chances"...

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02-27-2013, 11:42 PM
  #146
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I re-watched the game and I don't get the Myers hate... some brain farts yes. Overall? Mostly made the safe, smart play. I thought he was fine, and at the very least way better than his average game so far this year.

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02-28-2013, 12:05 AM
  #147
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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Huge difference between Stafford at the stage of his career that Foligno's at now is expectations/style. Stafford was drafted as - and played like as a rookie - a goalscoring finisher. He was expected to carry that over.

Foligno's recipe for success calls for much less in terms of expectations: go north to south, and go through people in doing so. Impose your will physically and on the forecheck, and offense (secondary) is a welcomed bonus. He now believes he can stand still, dangle his face off, and be successful without skating hard, moving the puck, forechecking, or working.

It's pathetic. I used the word 'complacency' at the beginning of the year, but it's greater and more problematic than that now. I don't know if I have a good word for him at the moment.
why is it that Bo-dangles Hodgson gets a pass for his failed attempts at dancing through defenders yet Foligno is crucified?

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02-28-2013, 12:13 AM
  #148
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Originally Posted by DJN21 View Post
why is it that Bo-dangles Hodgson gets a pass for his failed attempts at dancing through defenders yet Foligno is crucified?

I don't get the hate either as far as the "dangles" hate. Yeah...he needs to get back to working hard like he did last year......but there is nothing wrong with the kid trying to "dangle" or make a move.... God Forbid the kid tries to develop and add another part to his game.

Question the effort..yes... Don't question a youngster trying to add additional elements to his game.

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02-28-2013, 04:05 AM
  #149
RazielMoshman
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Question: What does everyone think about swapping Pom and Staff on the RW? Give Staff a chance with Hodgson and try to see if Pom can help ignite Foligno and Ennis. This is based on the idea that it's Hodgson and Vanek that seem to have the real chemisty so it might not hurt the line to much just taking Pom out for a few games.

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02-28-2013, 05:27 AM
  #150
wunderpanda
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I'm all for trying new lines or trying anything new. Whether its Vanek with Ennis or Stafford with Hodgson or Pominville with Ott, there aren't alot of proven commodities on this roster right now and I'm not sold on the Hodgson Vanek chemistry either. The Panthers are a slumping team, so it would be a good game to experiment at least.

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