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Hockey in Britain part 3

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02-26-2013, 05:02 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Looks decent but no hope of any form of semi-pro hockey there by the looks of it, hopefully they'll be able to put out some junior teams soon and maybe an NIHL2 team, which also gives the kids coming through the Manchester junior setup somewhere to go if they're not good enough to play for Trafford.
I believe intention is for an NL2 team to play out of it next season, and if not definitely by the season after. Should be good for Flintshire, Altrincham and possibly Blackburn's kids to get a chance at senior hockey as well as some of the better rec players from Cheshire and Staffordshire. North West seems to be doing well recently in getting teams and rinks set up, even if the second Blackpool rink doesn't get off the ground.

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02-27-2013, 03:11 AM
  #152
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You're dreaming, they'll just give that ice time to the figure skaters. The only ice available for pickup hockey is after midnight. It's probably illegal to let them on the ice without a coach anyway.
Slovenia is a nation of sportsmen, they have a massive winter sports culture and are actually given funding. We are a nation of couch potatoes, nearly all our Olympic medals came from events where the athlete is sitting down.
This must be tongue in cheek....... right?

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02-27-2013, 05:42 AM
  #153
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This must be tongue in cheek....... right?
I think it's a fair reflection, rising obesity levels in all age groups, in some we are the highest in Europe, I think in the EU there are data levels of average exercise in age groups, again the UK is fairly low in some of those (I remember seeing these back in school some years ago, cant speak to how they are now, I'd assume it's fairly the same).

And yes I believe the majority of the medals come from the rowing and cycling events.

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02-27-2013, 07:46 AM
  #154
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And yes I believe the majority of the medals come from the rowing and cycling events.
We also won a few in canoeing and equestrian.

I say it only half in jest, obviously the athletes in those events are top sportsmen, I just think it's funny because it accurately reflects our society.

I'm just saying Slovenia is not a good country to compare with GB. They have a tiny population, with very high sports participation rates.

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02-27-2013, 08:18 AM
  #155
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Our 18-24 year old men are no fatter than the Slovenians. In fact they're fatter than us up until old age. Not sure where you got your stats from, but they aren't the official EC ones:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/sta...BMI_statistics

I think we're successful across quite a wide variety of sports, immensely so when compared to our population size. The bottom line is that Slovenia over perform in winter sports, we over perform in summer sports. If winter sports were more popular here then we'd also over perform in them (better funding for coaching, better participation, better facilities etc).

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02-27-2013, 08:35 AM
  #156
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Our 18-24 year old men are no fatter than the Slovenians. In fact they're fatter than us up until old age. Not sure where you got your stats from, but they aren't the official EC ones:

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/sta...BMI_statistics

I think we're successful across quite a wide variety of sports, immensely so when compared to our population size. The bottom line is that Slovenia over perform in winter sports, we over perform in summer sports. If winter sports were more popular here then we'd also over perform in them (better funding for coaching, better participation, better facilities etc).
But they aren't that's the point.

Obviously a country with 60 million people would do better than one with 2 million people.


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02-27-2013, 08:49 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
But they aren't that's the point.

Obviously a country with 60 million people would do better than one with 2 million people.
Yeah I agree, of course that's the point... I thought we were "self-slagging off" for being a nation of fat knackers who were rubbish at real sports?

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02-27-2013, 10:32 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
But they aren't that's the point.

Obviously a country with 60 million people would do better than one with 2 million people.
Yes, Slovenia has a somewhat greater avdantage in Winter Sports ...

There is literally no reason for us to excel at winter sports.

And to those who say we specialise in certain sports ... so? Nearly every nation does. Somewhat of a preposterous argument.

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02-27-2013, 01:34 PM
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And to those who say we specialise in certain sports ... so? Nearly every nation does. Somewhat of a preposterous argument.
It was a joke

But it is partly true, we are a fat country. I don't know where he got his stats from but in almost every obesity ranking I've ever seen the UK is in the top 5 and Slovenia is nowhere to be seen. My knowledge of Slovenia comes from my friend in university who is from there, she tells me they are all mad about sport from football to the niche winter sports like ski jumping, and participation is high. She doesn't like hockey but knows a lot about Kopitar and Mursak, she says Kopitar is their national hero and that everyone knows who the top ski jumpers are. A majority of the UK population have no interest in sport outside of football, let alone participate. We are lucky to have a large population which keeps us good at sport at the pro level. Hopefully now after the Olympics things will continue to improve.


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02-27-2013, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
It was a joke

But it is partly true, we are a fat country. I don't know where he got his stats from but in almost every obesity ranking I've ever seen the UK is in the top 5 and Slovenia is nowhere to be seen. My knowledge of Slovenia comes from my friend in university who is from there, she tells me they are all mad about sport from football to the niche winter sports like ski jumping, and participation is high. She doesn't like hockey but knows a lot about Kopitar and Mursak, she says Kopitar is their national hero and that everyone knows who the top ski jumpers are. A majority of the UK population have no interest in sport outside of football, let alone participate. We are lucky to have a large population which keeps us good at sport at the pro level. Hopefully now after the Olympics things will continue to improve.
Sure we're a relatively fat nation. The weight of your average citizen isn't really that important in a climate of elite development.

The majority of the population isn't required for elite sports development. Of course, without statistics, your argument really doesn't mean anything, and just seems to follow the sentiment of thoughts on society.

The UK does very well in sports. Improvements can be made in many areas, but what do you expect? Don't expect many better olympics than the one we just had, you'll be waiting a long time. Statistics/variance suggest other nations with similar wealth/population will beat us at some point, and beating China/US is entirely unattainable. But then who really cares, most of the olympic sports aren't popular. Does anyone really care if we develop medals at Archery, Judo or events such as Pole vault? You might care for 2 weeks, but you aren't following those sports elsewhere so who cares? Team sports are infinitely more popular in consumption than individual sports.

The main problem is youth development in Football. England underachieves substantially in football player production quality relative to other nations.

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02-27-2013, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Sure we're a relatively fat nation. The weight of your average citizen isn't really that important in a climate of elite development.

The majority of the population isn't required for elite sports development. Of course, without statistics, your argument really doesn't mean anything, and just seems to follow the sentiment of thoughts on society.

The UK does very well in sports. Improvements can be made in many areas, but what do you expect? Don't expect many better olympics than the one we just had, you'll be waiting a long time. Statistics/variance suggest other nations with similar wealth/population will beat us at some point, and beating China/US is entirely unattainable. But then who really cares, most of the olympic sports aren't popular. Does anyone really care if we develop medals at Archery, Judo or events such as Pole vault? You might care for 2 weeks, but you aren't following those sports elsewhere so who cares? Team sports are infinitely more popular in consumption than individual sports.

The main problem is youth development in Football. England underachieves substantially in football player production quality relative to other nations.
Football development is toilet now. Big clubs don't need to bother with bringing on youth players when they can just buy in talent, small clubs have no incentive either because big clubs will just buy them.

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02-27-2013, 04:29 PM
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Football development is toilet now. Big clubs don't need to bother with bringing on youth players when they can just buy in talent, small clubs have no incentive either because big clubs will just buy them.
Well this isn't entirely true either. There are many smaller clubs that produce good players. The issue is with coaching/mentality at the younger age.

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02-28-2013, 06:55 AM
  #163
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I have read it, it's worth every penny/cent but I think I paid a little less than that, I just looked on Amazon now and it's 12.
Got it ! I read little more than half and it is simply amazing

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02-28-2013, 08:29 AM
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While CroHabitant is here, my Slovenian friend also says and I quote: "Croatians very sneaky people"



She rants about how Croatia tries to steal their sea and collaborated with the Nazis in WW2


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02-28-2013, 09:30 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Yes, Slovenia has a somewhat greater avdantage in Winter Sports ...

There is literally no reason for us to excel at winter sports.

And to those who say we specialise in certain sports ... so? Nearly every nation does. Somewhat of a preposterous argument.
I can relate this to Canada.
We hunker down in the winter and treat stuff as puritan jobs.
In the 2 or 3 months of simmer we treat as play time.
Soccer/football has higher participation numbers than hockey at youth levels. But we take our kids away from summer sports to go to the cottage/shore/lake/woods every weekend.
Even my local senior baseball has learnt that Sunday night games after 7pm brings a higher attendance as people are coming home from the summer weekend than Fridays when folk are leaving for the weekend.
As someone on here likes to say it's a cultural thing.
But with a lack of natural ice for a month or three just lay down ice pads whether they seat 2 or 20,000.
No ice time no development

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02-28-2013, 09:35 AM
  #166
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While CroHabitant is here, my Slovenian friend also says and I quote: "Croatians very sneaky people"



collaborated with the Nazis in WW2
ww2 in Croatia is very complicated story Better to stay on topic

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02-28-2013, 10:21 AM
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ww2 in Croatia is very complicated story Better to stay on topic
Haha ok

back on topic

The Okanagan Academy is looking to continue next year and are recruiting players. Some of the current players might stay next year. I think it's more than likely Mike Stratford will play for Swindon Wildcats next year, I've seen this kid play since he was a U12, he is a top prospect. I got a chance to see part of an Okanagan game in Slough, the goalie Ethan James is also outstanding.

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02-28-2013, 12:19 PM
  #168
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I can relate this to Canada.
We hunker down in the winter and treat stuff as puritan jobs.
In the 2 or 3 months of simmer we treat as play time.
Soccer/football has higher participation numbers than hockey at youth levels. But we take our kids away from summer sports to go to the cottage/shore/lake/woods every weekend.
Even my local senior baseball has learnt that Sunday night games after 7pm brings a higher attendance as people are coming home from the summer weekend than Fridays when folk are leaving for the weekend.
As someone on here likes to say it's a cultural thing.
But with a lack of natural ice for a month or three just lay down ice pads whether they seat 2 or 20,000.
No ice time no development
Soccer is coming for you guys

Ice hockey is a bizarre sport. It's a sport that relies alot upon climate to fund its development. It's expensive to build the facilities required for the sport, it's an expensive sport to participate in, it's a time consuming sport to practise (Relative to football/basketball etc) and it's a physically challenging sport. It's undoubtedly my favourite sport, but it's not a natural sport and is fundamentally flawed and illogical sport when discussing growth. It's fighting an uphill battle from the start, without even discussing cultural differences and sports competition.

Plus, i enjoy my smile and teeth.

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02-28-2013, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
Soccer is coming for you guys

Ice hockey is a bizarre sport. It's a sport that relies alot upon climate to fund its development. It's expensive to build the facilities required for the sport, it's an expensive sport to participate in, it's a time consuming sport to practise (Relative to football/basketball etc) and it's a physically challenging sport. It's undoubtedly my favourite sport, but it's not a natural sport and is fundamentally flawed and illogical sport when discussing growth. It's fighting an uphill battle from the start, without even discussing cultural differences and sports competition.

Plus, i enjoy my smile and teeth.
Relating to all those factors you listed I find the thing that holds it back the most is the need to start playing at such an early age in order to succeed, due to the wide range of skills and brains required. All the best players are the ones who started extremely young and were put into the game by their parents. I started fairly late (14) and lots of my friends wanted to start playing too but in the end they decided "it's too late to start playing because I won't get anywhere, so I'm not going to bother." Lots of people do start late even as adults but for every 1 of those there are more than 2 who decide there's no point.

It's not like rugby for example where a guy can be thrown straight into the game and be effective because he is strong and/or fast (just look at that American sprinter guy who one day decided to play rugby sevens). Another example is myself in football, because I'm pretty fit and can run I can make myself useful on the pitch despite not being very skilled. To further prove my point, I'm a goalie and I went out as a skater for a scrimmage last week, I can skate well and do all the basic stick skills, but I was terrible because I had no clue what I was doing in terms of positioning and all the mental stuff involved with the game.

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03-02-2013, 11:04 AM
  #170
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It's not like rugby for example where a guy can be thrown straight into the game and be effective because he is strong and/or fast (just look at that American sprinter guy who one day decided to play rugby sevens)
Completely disagree. Rugby takes a lot of game theory and knowledge to play well. The minor nations like the USA have tended to have the athletes but don't do well because their guys just don't have the incisive knowledge of the game. I grew up in the US and played rugby instead of football, so I was "fluent" in the game. There were many opportunities where I took advantage of my ex-gridiron opponents because my mind was that half-second quicker to spot something as compared to an ex-gridiron player trying to translate that situation in his mind.

You can see that in the US vs. Canada. Canada's athletes are less impressive than the US's athletes but they usually beat us at rugby because rugby is more popular there and their players start playing at 10-12 years old while many US players don't pick up the game until college.

Sevens a bit different, it's not really rugby most of the time. Carlin Whatshisname is nice, but what he's doing in rugby is like winning a slam dunk contest and saying you can play basketball.

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03-02-2013, 12:09 PM
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To be honest I think given all the things working against hockey, historically and present day, it is a minor miracle the sport is as 'global' as it is.

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03-02-2013, 04:57 PM
  #172
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Completely disagree. Rugby takes a lot of game theory and knowledge to play well. The minor nations like the USA have tended to have the athletes but don't do well because their guys just don't have the incisive knowledge of the game. I grew up in the US and played rugby instead of football, so I was "fluent" in the game. There were many opportunities where I took advantage of my ex-gridiron opponents because my mind was that half-second quicker to spot something as compared to an ex-gridiron player trying to translate that situation in his mind.

You can see that in the US vs. Canada. Canada's athletes are less impressive than the US's athletes but they usually beat us at rugby because rugby is more popular there and their players start playing at 10-12 years old while many US players don't pick up the game until college.

Sevens a bit different, it's not really rugby most of the time. Carlin Whatshisname is nice, but what he's doing in rugby is like winning a slam dunk contest and saying you can play basketball.
I know everything about the cognitive aspect of rugby, of course you can't do it at the pro level, but I am talking at early ages here and how easy it is compared to hockey. A kid can just show up and play for his school team or local rugby club having never played a game before and be a decent effective player if he's fast and/or strong. I remember playing for my school team we had a new kid who was massive, he was like 6'6" at age 15, he had never played before but we put him on the team anyway and I told him "Right I'm going to pass you the ball and you are just going to run in a straight line and score" and nobody could stop him.

Compare that to hockey, you can't just jump straight into a team. Even kids who can already skate have to go through learn to play or "rookies" as it was at my club for a good amount of time (generally older players were there longer) before the coaches would bring you up to the proper team, and even then it was the team in the B league, and when you made the team, you would ride the pine.

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03-05-2013, 10:36 AM
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I wonder how culturally different my part of Canada is different from the UK?
Battle of Nova Scotia..; Edinburgh Caps would love these jersey's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG-L5tFW9bE

Where else but Nova Scotia would a piper be in a still under construction Community Centre
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9X7yqOTMsOU

Of course maybe Panthers success this year is because of Maritimers.
Corey Neilson from Oromocto NB, David Ling from Halifax NS and Bruce Graham from Moncton NB,
AJ MacLean from Antigonish NS seems to have made a home with the Stars.There are others.......
Yeah not Brit players but they have an impact on Brit hockey...........and I know it bugs xome
You also have the Irish festivals
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5sSjXJzfSw


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03-05-2013, 05:54 PM
  #174
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Relating to all those factors you listed I find the thing that holds it back the most is the need to start playing at such an early age in order to succeed, due to the wide range of skills and brains required. All the best players are the ones who started extremely young and were put into the game by their parents. I started fairly late (14) and lots of my friends wanted to start playing too but in the end they decided "it's too late to start playing because I won't get anywhere, so I'm not going to bother." Lots of people do start late even as adults but for every 1 of those there are more than 2 who decide there's no point.
Many sports require development at an extremely young age. Wouldn't say ice hockey neccessairly requires players to start at a younger age than some other sports. Starting at 14, with the vast majority of high profile sports you aren't coming close to making it without god given physical attributes. Sport is development is about structured technical developmant of a narrow core of young players from an early age. I don't really understand what you mean by brains (Ha, as if the brain can be pluralised in reference to once person). If you're implying hockey players require a more inate sense of awareness and space (as i assume you aren't implying that brains = intelligence) i disagree. It's a fundamental trait that seperates the best from the good, but such defined traits are just as important in a variety of other sports. Decision making isn't inherently more important in Ice Hockey.

Of course a sport with minimal recognition, a small community and it's regeneration is by and large continued by inheritance. No suprise that parents involved in the sport have children involved in the sport (Something that is common in all hockey nations). Considering the sport lacks the reach of other more globalised, accessible sports, this is hardly suprising.

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It's not like rugby for example where a guy can be thrown straight into the game and be effective because he is strong and/or fast (just look at that American sprinter guy who one day decided to play rugby sevens). Another example is myself in football, because I'm pretty fit and can run I can make myself useful on the pitch despite not being very skilled. To further prove my point, I'm a goalie and I went out as a skater for a scrimmage last week, I can skate well and do all the basic stick skills, but I was terrible because I had no clue what I was doing in terms of positioning and all the mental stuff involved with the game.
I hardly think a comparison of you playing football at an extremely low level is comparable to playing in a relatively structured and skilled level. I imagine against competent football players, you'd look severely out of place. At secondary school, we had one player who was involved in the Southamption youth academy, and to say he was significantly better than any other player at our school is an understatement. This player never came close to making it professionally. It may be true to say it's easier to be competent at a sewer level in football relatively to ice hockey, simply because basic skills of football (I,e running and kicking compared to skating and puck handling) are more natural, but when you begin to encroach on a somewhat competent level at either sport (competent doesn't mean professional, or close to) this becomes a non-factor. The seperation between the bad and the above average in ice hockey isn't more defined than in football.

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03-05-2013, 06:18 PM
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Many sports require development at an extremely young age. Wouldn't say ice hockey neccessairly requires players to start at a younger age than some other sports. Starting at 14, with the vast majority of high profile sports you aren't coming close to making it without god given physical attributes. Sport is development is about structured technical developmant of a narrow core of young players from an early age. I don't really understand what you mean by brains (Ha, as if the brain can be pluralised in reference to once person). If you're implying hockey players require a more inate sense of awareness and space (as i assume you aren't implying that brains = intelligence) i disagree. It's a fundamental trait that seperates the best from the good, but such defined traits are just as important in a variety of other sports. Decision making isn't inherently more important in Ice Hockey.

Of course a sport with minimal recognition, a small community and it's regeneration is by and large continued by inheritance. No suprise that parents involved in the sport have children involved in the sport (Something that is common in all hockey nations). Considering the sport lacks the reach of other more globalised, accessible sports, this is hardly suprising.



I hardly think a comparison of you playing football at an extremely low level is comparable to playing in a relatively structured and skilled level. I imagine against competent football players, you'd look severely out of place. At secondary school, we had one player who was involved in the Southamption youth academy, and to say he was significantly better than any other player at our school is an understatement. This player never came close to making it professionally. It may be true to say it's easier to be competent at a sewer level in football relatively to ice hockey, simply because basic skills of football (I,e running and kicking compared to skating and puck handling) are more natural, but when you begin to encroach on a somewhat competent level at either sport (competent doesn't mean professional, or close to) this becomes a non-factor. The seperation between the bad and the above average in ice hockey isn't more defined than in football.
Nearly all of the best hockey players start skating as soon as they can walk, it's pretty much a necessity of the sport, whereas I grew up with guys who have gone on to play professional rugby league in the Super League for Warrington and internationally for England who did not even start playing school level rugby union until age 9 at the earliest and didn't play school rugby league until they were in secondary school, they were both big guys who were quick and strong, they got scouted by Warrington and were then given proper development in rugby league. Of course accessibility plays a part, it's easy to play school level football but not hockey, there is no structured competition here for kids at that level, that's the point.

What I mean by brains is hockey IQ, while some naturally have more than others as shown in the NHL, it takes many years to develop it. I'm a goalie and I have all the basic hockey skills but I play very very low level roller hockey as a skater and I make terrible decisions with the puck and cause turnovers because I lack hockey IQ due to inexperience. It's a very underrated attribute, especially on this website.

The overall point is, if the need to start early in order to make it did not exist, less young teenagers and pre-teenagers would be put off from taking up the sport, and there would be more "mediocre" players developed boosting the overall talent level of the domestic leagues, and then the more talented players could develop better. As of right now, the British junior leagues are all dominated by a select number of players, each team has a couple of top players who do all the scoring and the rest are below average and 80% never make it above NIHL2 level. I have seen it year after year. I've spoken to dozens of young hockey fans and I ask them "why don't you play?" and they all give the same answer: "I thought it was too late to start"


Last edited by Propane Nightmares: 03-05-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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