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Gomez vs Kessel trade - Which one was worse?

View Poll Results: Which trade was worse?
Gomez 181 72.40%
Kessel 69 27.60%
Voters: 250. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-28-2013, 10:08 AM
  #51
jaffy27
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Honestly, why are trying to justify our poor trade like this? At end of the day, they still got a good player, we got nothing. They gave 2 good young players for 1, we gave 1 for 0 and cap problems.
exactly!!!!

Then you compound these bad trades with Rask to Boston for Raycroft...WTF!!!!
Then the 1st round draft pick to San Jose for Toskala (SJ picked Logan Couture)

Leaf Management should be hung by their feet and beaten

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Old
02-28-2013, 10:12 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Seguin and Hamilton...
Gonna have to go with that one.

Seguin is better than Kessel, they added in Hamilton who'll be just as good as Mcdo if not more.
No question they got the worse deal.

Gomez was crap, but at least him and Pyatt were part of our team that went to the ECF.
The Leafs got 0 results with Kessel.

I know Habs fans are still bitter and pissed, but it's not even close IMO.
we didn't go to the eastern conference final on there sweat and blood that's for sure, Cammalleri and Halak were the horses

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02-28-2013, 10:12 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
How is seguin better than Kessel? Kessel hit 30+ goals several times and hit PPG last year. 7th in goals, 6th in points last year. What do you expect from Seguin? 4th in goals and 4th in points? There's only 4 guys in the NHL who hit 35+ goals and PPG. Stamkos, Malkin, Kessel and Neal. So yes, at the very least, approx isn't a bad thing to say. They are both offensive minded players who aren't physical. I'll admit seguin is a little more well rounded but not enough to suggest he's actually that much better. I stick to approx.

I don't get it, you feel the Kessel one is worst because Seguin is better than Kessel? Hmm, but Gomez is better than Mcdonagh? I get your point that they gave hamilton and company away too but we gave Mcdonagh, higgins and valentenko away and got cap problems and a buyout.

At the end of the day we can say whatever we like about leafs giving more, but they also got more. The ratio between quality of assets given:quality of assets recieved is dramatically better for the leafs than the habs. At the worst, it's a 1:2 ratio. For the habs it's like 1:10.
Seguin is producing despite having a rather full lineup in front of him and thus having less TOI to produce points. He posted 29 goals last season and 67 points in 81 games, a similar pace to Kessel prior to Lupul. Kessel did not become a PPG player until he joined up with Lupul.

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02-28-2013, 10:15 AM
  #54
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Kessel at least is a top line player. We got nothing.

Toronto loses two potentially great players, we lose one.

Both trades are awful but at least Toronto gets something out of it.


So uh... we WIN!


On the plus side, we didn't give away Rask...

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02-28-2013, 10:21 AM
  #55
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Biggest winner? Boston
Biggest loser: Montreal.
Overall, Gomez trade is worse, because we'd still be stuck with a useless 7 M$ player if not for the new CBA.

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02-28-2013, 10:22 AM
  #56
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The 43 goals that Chris Higgins has scored since this trade obviously isn't enough to count him as a player that we lost.

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02-28-2013, 10:23 AM
  #57
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The Gomez trade was worse on paper but the Kessel trade set Bcak Toronto like 2-3 years in their rebuild...maybe more depending on what happens the next 18 months.

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02-28-2013, 10:24 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prallchengher View Post
Seguin is producing despite having a rather full lineup in front of him and thus having less TOI to produce points. He posted 29 goals last season and 67 points in 81 games, a similar pace to Kessel prior to Lupul. Kessel did not become a PPG player until he joined up with Lupul.
Well, FWIW, Seguin played 3 mil less per game last year but with significantly better linemates. I think Kessel helped Lupul more than other way around.

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02-28-2013, 10:37 AM
  #59
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In terms of who was worse between Gainey and Burke, I'd go with Gainey because he knew all the parameters of the trades, while Toronto gave picks that they likely expected would be at least a few ranks higher than that.

But which team will be the most hurt in the long run, I think it's definitely Toronto. Not only did they lose Seguin (already a significantly better player than Kessel that would be much better to build around), they also lost Hamilton that imo is also better than McD (remains to be seen though).

But if they actually stayed with their picks and got Seguin, they likely would've done even WORSE in the year where the Bruins picked Hamilton, and they might've gotten another top 5 pick instead. So what they lost is not really Seguin + Hamilton, more like Seguin/Hall + Huberdeau/Couturier/Larsson... Those would give them likely 2 elite centers to build around, instead of a top tier winger. And their team REALLY REALLY needed that.

The Leafs were in a pure rebuild mode, with nearly no good player anywhere on their roster or nearly and a weak prospect bank. They NEEDED high draft picks, and they traded them away for a very good but not elite player.

For Habs the trade was definitely a setback, and a damn stupid one, but in the long run the Habs still have a deeper roster of skilled young players that will make up for McD, and Gomez is gone. So with hindsight, Toronto imo had the worse trade, by quite a bit too. Without hindsight though, I would've picked Montreal cause at least Toronto got Kessel, but Burke just overrated his team in a rebuild trying to use a shortcut instead of taking the patient road and get top draft picks.

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02-28-2013, 10:39 AM
  #60
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The results of this poll are a ****ing embarassment to Habs fans everywhere.

How the Kessel trade gets any votes is beyond my comprehension.

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02-28-2013, 10:45 AM
  #61
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I know this may sound weird on paper and impact to the respective teams Kessel trade was worst but in terms of a hockey trade (reality) ours was much worst! That Gomez trade thank god hasnt set us back much, Kessel trade set back the leafs a few years imo.

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02-28-2013, 11:06 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
How is seguin better than Kessel? Kessel hit 30+ goals several times and hit PPG last year. 7th in goals, 6th in points last year. What do you expect from Seguin? 4th in goals and 4th in points? There's only 4 guys in the NHL who hit 35+ goals and PPG. Stamkos, Malkin, Kessel and Neal. So yes, at the very least, approx isn't a bad thing to say. They are both offensive minded players who aren't physical. I'll admit seguin is a little more well rounded but not enough to suggest he's actually that much better. I stick to approx.
Seguin is more well rounded as you pointed out. I think you know well enough that who's the better player isn't determined by how many goals or points one has brought forth in one season.
Kessel is a pure sniper, I don't expect Seguin to ever outscore him. If we were arguing about who's the better goal scorer, than yea, Kessel. But that's not what we're arguing about now are we?
We are not even arguing about who was the better player last year, or even today.
You're talking about a trade involving one NHL player for draft picks.
Kessel will reach 500 games if he's healthy this year. Seguin will get 200.

To me, there's no question, Seguin is the better player of the two. He lead the Bruins in pts, in a defensive system, as a sophomore without even getting top minutes.
He will only improve.

So ya, Seguin>Kessel already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
I don't get it, you feel the Kessel one is worst because Seguin is better than Kessel? Hmm, but Gomez is better than Mcdonagh? I get your point that they gave hamilton and company away too but we gave Mcdonagh, higgins and valentenko away and got cap problems and a buyout.
No, I feel the Kessel one is worst because the Leafs gave up Seguin+McDo+Knight.

You say we gave up Higgins, well NYR gave up Pyatt. Considering the way Higgins played in NYR, that's a wash.
Valentenko..really?..Okay, NYR gave up Busto. Again, wash.

The main pieces are Gomez and McDo.

So, say Kessel=Seguin, which is what you seem to believe, then you add Hamilton+Knight, and they equal McDo at the very least.

After you say we were in cap problems. I disagree. It's never ONE player setting you up in Cap hell. We gave contracts to Gionta and Cammalleri too. Those didn't help. Hamrlik had a pretty expensive price tag too for what he brought. The management of the cap on various deal was what gave us problems, not just one player.

Just like it's not Kessel's fault if Toronto absolutely sucked during his time there. It's not Gomez's fault management decided to give out a few bad contracts after he was brought in.

So all in all, at the very least the trades are equally bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
At the end of the day we can say whatever we like about leafs giving more, but they also got more. The ratio between quality of assets given:quality of assets recieved is dramatically better for the leafs than the habs. At the worst, it's a 1:2 ratio. For the habs it's like 1:10.
I disagree. I think at the very least the trades are equally as bad.
Doesn't matter if they got something in return, they also gave away way much more.
However, I think Seguin is better than Kessel, and I also think Hamilton can be better than McDo. Then you throw in Knight. For those reasons, I think the toronto deal was worse.


I think at first, it's not even close, the Gomez trade is definitely the worse one. At that point, we didn't know that the Leafs were going to horribly suck and give away two major top end talent picks to Boston. But after knowing what the Bruins got, it turns into the worse one.

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Old
02-28-2013, 11:15 AM
  #63
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I say the kessel trade 100 percent....i mean yah he`s a better player than gomez....but if u look at this year hes only got 4 goals in 21 games and they gave up TYLER ****ING SEGUIN AND DOUGIE ****ING HAMILTON.......hamilton is just as huge a piece as seguin...leafs fans got soooooo ripped offf it`s not even fit....we`ll still be talking about this in another ten years.

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02-28-2013, 11:15 AM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
Well, FWIW, Seguin played 3 mil less per game last year but with significantly better linemates. I think Kessel helped Lupul more than other way around.
Lupul always had a lot of skill, but injuries and Carlyle not playing him on the off-wing derailed his career in his second Anaheim stint.

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02-28-2013, 11:17 AM
  #65
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here`s the simple way to look at it.

If you had tyler seguin, dougie hamilton, chris higgins and ryan macdonagh on your team today....would you rather trade seguin and hamilton and seguin for kessel....or higgins and macdonagh for gomez.
I know my answer

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02-28-2013, 11:18 AM
  #66
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The only way I can see an argument for the Kessel trade is that the Habs trade did not do too much long term damage to the franchise. Kessel was traded to Toronto because Toronto wanted to build around him as their franchise player, which you can't really do with a one-dimensional sniper.

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02-28-2013, 11:20 AM
  #67
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Gomez and as mentioned by a few other people its not even close.

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02-28-2013, 11:29 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Patccmoi View Post
In terms of who was worse between Gainey and Burke, I'd go with Gainey because he knew all the parameters of the trades, while Toronto gave picks that they likely expected would be at least a few ranks higher than that.

But which team will be the most hurt in the long run, I think it's definitely Toronto. Not only did they lose Seguin (already a significantly better player than Kessel that would be much better to build around), they also lost Hamilton that imo is also better than McD (remains to be seen though).

But if they actually stayed with their picks and got Seguin, they likely would've done even WORSE in the year where the Bruins picked Hamilton, and they might've gotten another top 5 pick instead. So what they lost is not really Seguin + Hamilton, more like Seguin/Hall + Huberdeau/Couturier/Larsson... Those would give them likely 2 elite centers to build around, instead of a top tier winger. And their team REALLY REALLY needed that.

The Leafs were in a pure rebuild mode, with nearly no good player anywhere on their roster or nearly and a weak prospect bank. They NEEDED high draft picks, and they traded them away for a very good but not elite player.

For Habs the trade was definitely a setback, and a damn stupid one, but in the long run the Habs still have a deeper roster of skilled young players that will make up for McD, and Gomez is gone. So with hindsight, Toronto imo had the worse trade, by quite a bit too. Without hindsight though, I would've picked Montreal cause at least Toronto got Kessel, but Burke just overrated his team in a rebuild trying to use a shortcut instead of taking the patient road and get top draft picks.
Well thought out post and I agree fully. Toronto's was a bigger screw up both in terms of strategy and results.

What hurts about the Gomez-McD trade was the horrible evaluation of both players' worth. But in the end, Timmins will have helped mitigate this loss.

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Old
02-28-2013, 12:00 PM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtimehockeyfan999 View Post
I say the kessel trade 100 percent....i mean yah he`s a better player than gomez....but if u look at this year hes only got 4 goals in 21 games and they gave up TYLER ****ING SEGUIN AND DOUGIE ****ING HAMILTON.......hamilton is just as huge a piece as seguin...leafs fans got soooooo ripped offf it`s not even fit....we`ll still be talking about this in another ten years.
In the Leafs defence, Seguin has 3 goals and Hamilton has 1, total is 4, same as Kessel.
But don't get me wrong, I'd take the Bruin kids over Kessel any day. I still think the Rask for Raycroft trade was the worst one, that's like trading Price for...well Raycroft OUCH!!!

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Old
02-28-2013, 12:06 PM
  #70
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Let's look at it by the numbers. Gomez and Pyatt (Busto did play for us) contributed twenty five goals and ninety five assists during their time with the Montreal Canadiens. McDonagh and Higgins (Valentenko and Janik never played for the Rangers) have thus far contributed sixteen goals and forty four assists. So to this point one could argue that we have seen more benefit from the Gomez trade than the Rangers (but in the same breath one has to acknowledge that unless McDonagh's career is ended tomorrow it is very likely that he will soon over come that deficit - he's only behind nine goals and fifty one assists.

Kessel, OTOH, has contributed one hundred three goals for the Leafs and one hundred fourteen assists. Seguin, Hamilton and Knight have chipped in forty four goals and sixty five assists - differentials of fifty nine goals and forty nine assists. Obviously they have done better to this point as well. But Kessel is racing against Hamilton, Seguin and Knight. While he might be able to keep up against one or two of those guys, all three are going to bury him over time.

So I voted the Kessel trade as the worst of the two. Yes, we gave up McDonagh and yes Gomez was miserable after his first season in Montreal but Toronto gave up a McDonagh like prospect (Hamilton) plus a top two pick plus a solid future power forward for a thirty goal scorer (we gave up Cole and got a third back for an admittedly older but otherwise similarly one dimensional thirty goal scorer)

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02-28-2013, 12:12 PM
  #71
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The Leafs trade was absolutely brutal because how it turned out, if the Bruins don't draft Seguin and have say the 5th or 6th pick no one even makes a big deal about it, yes they got Hamilton but still they did receive a 1st line winger who can score between 30 and 40 goals on a yearly basis

As for our trade, we got the worse player and gave up a guy that would have been here for years playing top minutes for this franchise. Higgins and Valatenko would have been more then enough

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02-28-2013, 12:31 PM
  #72
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In the end, we gave Mcdonagh and Higgins for what amounts today to nothing at all.

The Leafs still have Kessel. Whatever you think of him, he is an asset.


If you look at it at the time, these trades are more even. We gave Higgins and a good but unproven prospect for a proven center and guess what, Gomez's first year was all right and he played his part in that final four in the post season. It was a hefty price but I still rather liked Gomez at that point. 0.75ppg I could live with. We know the rest of the story. Ugh.

As for Kessel, he was not traded for Seguin and Hamilton. He was traded for two first and a second. The year before, the Leaf had drafted 10th I believe. Nobody expected adding Kessel to make them Cup contender overnight, but I'd like to see written proof that some people predicted they would nose dive and draft 2nd overall. Such posters would have genuine bragging rights and should put that in their signature.

If the Leafs had merely continued being mediocre and drafted 12th and 13th, that trade wouldn't seem nearly that awful.

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02-28-2013, 12:40 PM
  #73
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Gomez trade and it's not close. Kessel is still a young core asset and one of the best snipers in the NHL. We gave a top pairing D and a good 3rd liner for 1 year of a 2nd line center.

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02-28-2013, 12:40 PM
  #74
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Hamilton and McDonagh are a wash so it comes down to which is worse

Higgins for Gomez

or

Seguin for Kessel

The Kessel deal is clearly worse. Especially if you factor into the results achieved by each team.

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02-28-2013, 12:45 PM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VL55 View Post
In the end, we gave Mcdonagh and Higgins for what amounts today to nothing at all.

The Leafs still have Kessel. Whatever you think of him, he is an asset.


If you look at it at the time, these trades are more even. We gave Higgins and a good but unproven prospect for a proven center and guess what, Gomez's first year was all right and he played his part in that final four in the post season. It was a hefty price but I still rather liked Gomez at that point. 0.75ppg I could live with. We know the rest of the story. Ugh.

As for Kessel, he was not traded for Seguin and Hamilton. He was traded for two first and a second. The year before, the Leaf had drafted 10th I believe. Nobody expected adding Kessel to make them Cup contender overnight, but I'd like to see written proof that some people predicted they would nose dive and draft 2nd overall. Such posters would have genuine bragging rights and should put that in their signature.

If the Leafs had merely continued being mediocre and drafted 12th and 13th, that trade wouldn't seem nearly that awful.
True but you could argue Kessel was a big part of that nose dive. They were relying on him to carry the offence his failure to do that was one of the reasons they drafted so low.

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