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Soviet Union beat Canada (4-3) 1991 Canada Cup

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02-17-2013, 09:54 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
NHL refs for ya. Obviously they are going to prefer their own country, especially against the "evil empire". that's why the IIHF doesn't allow referees to work games involving their own country, and also why the Canada/World Cup was a joke.
You're right obviously, and that's why Canadian ref Bill McCreary worked the Olympic finals in both 2002 and 2010. Olympics are a joke!

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02-20-2013, 02:49 PM
  #27
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You're right obviously, and that's why Canadian ref Bill McCreary worked the Olympic finals in both 2002 and 2010. Olympics are a joke!
Huh, that's odd. Anyone know how that happened? I've never heard of an IIHF ref working a game involving his own country before. Maybe I just don't pay close enough attention, but I could have sworn that was against the rules.

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02-20-2013, 02:57 PM
  #28
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Huh, that's odd. Anyone know how that happened? I've never heard of an IIHF ref working a game involving his own country before. Maybe I just don't pay close enough attention, but I could have sworn that was against the rules.
It was an NHL demand that games involving a majority of NHL players had an NHL referee.

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02-20-2013, 02:58 PM
  #29
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Huh, that's odd. Anyone know how that happened? I've never heard of an IIHF ref working a game involving his own country before. Maybe I just don't pay close enough attention, but I could have sworn that was against the rules.
http://stats.iihf.com/og2010/IHM400101_74_4_0.pdf

Refs

McCREARY Bill (CAN) , O HALLORAN Daniel (CAN)

Linesmen

FONSELIUS Stefan (FIN) , MORIN Jean (CAN



For the record, the penalties were even 2 minors each.

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02-20-2013, 03:01 PM
  #30
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The 2006 final was also refereed by a Canadian


DEVORSKI Paul (CAN)

Linesmen

MASIK Milan (SVK), NELSON Thor Eric (USA)




2002


Referee/Arbitre
Bill McCreary

Linesmen/Juges des lignes
Micheal Cvik, Antti Hamalainen



Frankly I'd rather have NHL referees doing the games, yes I'm biased, and the majority of them are Canadian.

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02-20-2013, 03:32 PM
  #31
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Referring isn't a big issue as long there's strict, controlled and shared oversight.

Yes the NHL has much say in olympic officiating, but there's also a "officiating committee" made up of representatives from several participating countries.

It's quite the contrast from the Canada Cup where all supervision and authority was in the hands of Alan Eagleson.

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02-20-2013, 03:47 PM
  #32
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I don't mind NHL refs working international games, but you would think the nationality rules would still apply. It's just common sense. Of course the NHL doesn't care about common sense though.

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02-20-2013, 04:00 PM
  #33
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I don't mind NHL refs working international games, but you would think the nationality rules would still apply. It's just common sense. Of course the NHL doesn't care about common sense though.
I'd personally rather have the best refs, even if they are from the opposing team's country. The Gold Medal Game was refereed perfectly, and that's not something you always say about international games.

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02-20-2013, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
It's quite the contrast from the Canada Cup where all supervision and authority was in the hands of Alan Eagleson.
Alan Eagleson wouldn't cheat anyone.

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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
I'd personally rather have the best refs, even if they are from the opposing team's country.
Definitely. I would like the NHL to hire more European refs if at all possible though.

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02-20-2013, 04:42 PM
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Alan Eagleson wouldn't cheat anyone.



Definitely. I would like the NHL to hire more European refs if at all possible though.
Should benefit all involved.

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02-21-2013, 05:14 AM
  #36
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Alan Eagleson wouldn't cheat anyone.

Definitely. I would like the NHL to hire more European refs if at all possible though.
I didn't realize that Eagleson ref'ed as well. I agree that the NHL should hire more European refs, but the first and foremost I want the best refs working in best on best tournaments. The Canada / World Cups were played by NHL rules and mostly on NHL sized ice. There is no way there were European refs more qualified to do those games than the ones they used. There will always be sore losers who say the NHL refs cheated and fixed the tournaments, but they are just that, sore losers.

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02-21-2013, 06:53 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I didn't realize that Eagleson ref'ed as well. I agree that the NHL should hire more European refs, but the first and foremost I want the best refs working in best on best tournaments. The Canada / World Cups were played by NHL rules and mostly on NHL sized ice. There is no way there were European refs more qualified to do those games than the ones they used. There will always be sore losers who say the NHL refs cheated and fixed the tournaments, but they are just that, sore losers.
A tourney that clearly is biased in more than one way is just that, a tourney that is biased. Next please.

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02-21-2013, 07:06 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I didn't realize that Eagleson ref'ed as well. I agree that the NHL should hire more European refs, but the first and foremost I want the best refs working in best on best tournaments. The Canada / World Cups were played by NHL rules and mostly on NHL sized ice. There is no way there were European refs more qualified to do those games than the ones they used. There will always be sore losers who say the NHL refs cheated and fixed the tournaments, but they are just that, sore losers.
I agree. With Eagleson it's just noteworthy that such a ******* was running the tournament. I highly doubt that he was running around spiking drinks and paying off refs though. Stealing profits was more his game.

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02-25-2013, 12:19 AM
  #39
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even if it was a goal, does op not understand that the whole game dynamics from that point on changes. so all you can say what the score would have been at that particular point and the game after plays out differently. for ex the face off would be at center, canada might have pulled goalie if they were down, scoring line out at the end to get equalizer.

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02-25-2013, 02:39 PM
  #40
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A tourney that clearly is biased in more than one way is just that, a tourney that is biased. Next please.
The Canada / World Cup were less biased towards North Americans than IIHF tournaments in that time were biased towards Europeans, so I'm not sure what your point is.

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02-27-2013, 03:43 PM
  #41
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The Canada / World Cup were less biased towards North Americans than IIHF tournaments in that time were biased towards Europeans, so I'm not sure what your point is.
I think you can make a distinction between the Canada Cup and the World Cup. In the Canada Cup, you had mostly a matchup between Canada and the Soviets. Other countries were competitive at times, but it came down to those two in terms of who was going to win. By the time the World Cup came about, the Soviet Union was extinct, and it was basically an intramural tournament for NHL players. Russia stopped producing hockey players by about 1992, and the Russian teams in the tournament in 1996 and 2004 were admittedly garbage.

In my view, its impossible to have a tournament which is produced, directed, funded and staffed by one of the participant countries and still have a fair, level playing field. I am sure that Canadians are as fair-minded as any people on Earth, but its impossible to have those conditions and not meddle to create a competitive advantage for your side. You own it, you have the right to do it, so you do it. The fact is that the two teams in 1984 and 1987, man-for-man, were so incredibly close that just a handfull of calls and executive decisions could make the difference.

In 1984, the Soviets beat Canada in the round robin, 6-3, and Alan Eagleson blamed the referee, Dag Olsson of Sweden, for the bad result. He made the statement that no European would referee a medal round game again, and his decree stood through the last Canada Cup in 1991. EbencoyE is right - it is unfair to the referee and to the team from the other country to have a game refereed by someone from the home country *Note, the referee in the medal round game between Canada and the Soviets was American Mike Noeth - a minor league ref who was a candidate for an NHL job - thereby putting him under tremendous pressure to please his prospective employers. The 1987 games were refereed by Canadian Don Koharski (twice) and Paul Stewart. Its not so much calls that were made, but more so those that were let go. In the final, decisive match in 1987, the refereeing was egregiously biased, and you'll hear a lot of Russian fans *****ing about it to this day.

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02-28-2013, 05:44 AM
  #42
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I think you can make a distinction between the Canada Cup and the World Cup. In the Canada Cup, you had mostly a matchup between Canada and the Soviets. Other countries were competitive at times, but it came down to those two in terms of who was going to win. By the time the World Cup came about, the Soviet Union was extinct, and it was basically an intramural tournament for NHL players. Russia stopped producing hockey players by about 1992, and the Russian teams in the tournament in 1996 and 2004 were admittedly garbage.

In my view, its impossible to have a tournament which is produced, directed, funded and staffed by one of the participant countries and still have a fair, level playing field. I am sure that Canadians are as fair-minded as any people on Earth, but its impossible to have those conditions and not meddle to create a competitive advantage for your side. You own it, you have the right to do it, so you do it. The fact is that the two teams in 1984 and 1987, man-for-man, were so incredibly close that just a handfull of calls and executive decisions could make the difference.

In 1984, the Soviets beat Canada in the round robin, 6-3, and Alan Eagleson blamed the referee, Dag Olsson of Sweden, for the bad result. He made the statement that no European would referee a medal round game again, and his decree stood through the last Canada Cup in 1991. EbencoyE is right - it is unfair to the referee and to the team from the other country to have a game refereed by someone from the home country *Note, the referee in the medal round game between Canada and the Soviets was American Mike Noeth - a minor league ref who was a candidate for an NHL job - thereby putting him under tremendous pressure to please his prospective employers. The 1987 games were refereed by Canadian Don Koharski (twice) and Paul Stewart. Its not so much calls that were made, but more so those that were let go. In the final, decisive match in 1987, the refereeing was egregiously biased, and you'll hear a lot of Russian fans *****ing about it to this day.
As I've shown many times in the past it was team experience, not man for man equality that allowed the Soviets to excel. You are right that since the Canada Cup was organized by us that we had the right to structure the tournament as we saw fit and we did by having it played on NHL sized ice, with NHL rules and NHL officials. Just as IIHF tournaments used European sized ice, rules and style of officiating. I think anyone who suggests that officials should have been used who had little or no experience calling the physical brand of NHL hockey in those days, especially in a tournament of this level, is out to lunch.

I've come to understand that the complaint about the origin of the officials really revolves around two things. Firstly from fans whose teams didn't win the tournaments and are trying to discredit those who did. Secondly and most importantly it represents a cultural divide between hockey fans.

Cheating and corruption exists in every country and culture but the level and acceptance of it varies greatly from place to place. If you are from a place where people are expected to act professionally, with honour and integrity, then you don't really see an issue in using officials who are under the same cultural expectations. If you are from a place where cheating and corruption are rampant then of course you are not going to want to trust anyone who might in your eyes have a reason to cheat.

I find it deeply offensive when people like you with no credible evidence suggest that Canada cheated and conspired to fix the Canada Cups. People love to point out that Alan Eagleson was involved, but he did not officiate a single game and as far as I can tell had no power over NHL officials so I don't really see how his involvement is relevant to the discussion.

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02-28-2013, 10:38 AM
  #43
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As I've shown many times in the past it was team experience, not man for man equality that allowed the Soviets to excel. You are right that since the Canada Cup was organized by us that we had the right to structure the tournament as we saw fit and we did by having it played on NHL sized ice, with NHL rules and NHL officials. Just as IIHF tournaments used European sized ice, rules and style of officiating. I think anyone who suggests that officials should have been used who had little or no experience calling the physical brand of NHL hockey in those days, especially in a tournament of this level, is out to lunch.

I've come to understand that the complaint about the origin of the officials really revolves around two things. Firstly from fans whose teams didn't win the tournaments and are trying to discredit those who did. Secondly and most importantly it represents a cultural divide between hockey fans.

Cheating and corruption exists in every country and culture but the level and acceptance of it varies greatly from place to place. If you are from a place where people are expected to act professionally, with honour and integrity, then you don't really see an issue in using officials who are under the same cultural expectations. If you are from a place where cheating and corruption are rampant then of course you are not going to want to trust anyone who might in your eyes have a reason to cheat.

I find it deeply offensive when people like you with no credible evidence suggest that Canada cheated and conspired to fix the Canada Cups. People love to point out that Alan Eagleson was involved, but he did not officiate a single game and as far as I can tell had no power over NHL officials so I don't really see how his involvement is relevant to the discussion.
I have always loved your automaton zombie theory! The Soviets, because of their fiendish mastery over all cosmic forces, were able to create laboratories in which they took just Average Joes off the streets of Moscow, forced them to lace up skates, and then used them to create a super team so potent that it took the refereeing of Don Koharski to prevent them from claiming unrivaled supremacy over the hockey world. Of course, it had nothing to do with the Soviets being pretty good hockey players!

Putting your theory to work in Canada, you could gather 3rd or 4th line players from AHL teams, and put them together on a national team. After a year or two, an NHL team of Crosby, Stamkos, Nash and whoever else you could name would be helpless against them. Individually, the AHL team would be less than mediocre, but if they play together in a good system, and trained hard, they would have trounced the 2010 Canadian Olympic team. Its a great theory, but you have to use a lot of imagination to envision it.

Just one note: the NHL was never involved in the Canada Cup. The tournament was founded, funded, and administered by the NHLPA. NHL players are not on the payroll in the off season, so they are free to do whatever they want. Alan Eagleson was the Director of the NHLPA. He organized and promoted the '72 series and all of the Canada Cups. At the time of the incident that I refenced in the '84 Canada Cup, there were no NHL refs working the Canada Cup - only the refs that Eagleson himself hired. Feel free to refute those facts if you can.

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02-28-2013, 11:55 AM
  #44
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I have always loved your automaton zombie theory! The Soviets, because of their fiendish mastery over all cosmic forces, were able to create laboratories in which they took just Average Joes off the streets of Moscow, forced them to lace up skates, and then used them to create a super team so potent that it took the refereeing of Don Koharski to prevent them from claiming unrivaled supremacy over the hockey world. Of course, it had nothing to do with the Soviets being pretty good hockey players!

Putting your theory to work in Canada, you could gather 3rd or 4th line players from AHL teams, and put them together on a national team. After a year or two, an NHL team of Crosby, Stamkos, Nash and whoever else you could name would be helpless against them. Individually, the AHL team would be less than mediocre, but if they play together in a good system, and trained hard, they would have trounced the 2010 Canadian Olympic team. Its a great theory, but you have to use a lot of imagination to envision it.
The Soviets had not just good players, but great players, but on average certainly not the greatest players. The rest of your comments here are just a load of made up bull that I never said, so they are really not worth commenting on.

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Just one note: the NHL was never involved in the Canada Cup. The tournament was founded, funded, and administered by the NHLPA. NHL players are not on the payroll in the off season, so they are free to do whatever they want. Alan Eagleson was the Director of the NHLPA. He organized and promoted the '72 series and all of the Canada Cups. At the time of the incident that I refenced in the '84 Canada Cup, there were no NHL refs working the Canada Cup - only the refs that Eagleson himself hired. Feel free to refute those facts if you can.
I believe the Canada Cup was sanctioned not only by the NHL, but by the IIHF as well. Off season or not most of the referees were full time NHL refs. To be honest I don't know if they were on multi year contracts or not at the time, but as far as I can tell the NHLPA did not have any say or control over the refs in the NHL. The Canada Cup was a short tournament held every four years or so. If you want to believe that a professional and normally impartial NHL ref would want to abandon his ethics and risk throwing his career and reputation away by conspiring to cheat and fix such a sort and infrequent tournament then believe of us what you will.

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02-28-2013, 12:26 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
The Soviets had not just good players, but great players, but on average certainly not the greatest players. The rest of your comments here are just a load of made up bull that I never said, so they are really not worth commenting on.



I believe the Canada Cup was sanctioned not only by the NHL, but by the IIHF as well. Off season or not most of the referees were full time NHL refs. To be honest I don't know if they were on multi year contracts or not at the time, but as far as I can tell the NHLPA did not have any say or control over the refs in the NHL. The Canada Cup was a short tournament held every four years or so. If you want to believe that a professional and normally impartial NHL ref would want to abandon his ethics and risk throwing his career and reputation away by conspiring to cheat and fix such a sort and infrequent tournament then believe of us what you will.
Like Ebencoye said, its not about abandoning ethics, its really about putting a referee in a position where they have to make home town calls, or live with the consequences. As your own personal writing attests, there was bitter hatred toward the Soviets in the '70's and '80's in Canada and the US. It put too much pressure on Koharski to preside over a game in which a perceived bad call cost Canada the Canada Cup. Andy Van Hellemond, another Canadian, had the courage to call a fair and even game in Game 3 of the Challenge Cup, but in my opinion, Koharski couldn't measure up to Van Hellemond's standard. I don't blame him - its too much pressure. He failed to make a call when someone dragged down Bykov just before he caught up with Lemieux to break up the winning goal, which cost the Soviets the opportunity to take the game to OT. He choked on his whistle, no two ways.

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02-28-2013, 12:48 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Like Ebencoye said, its not about abandoning ethics, its really about putting a referee in a position where they have to make home town calls, or live with the consequences. As your own personal writing attests, there was bitter hatred toward the Soviets in the '70's and '80's in Canada and the US. It put too much pressure on Koharski to preside over a game in which a perceived bad call cost Canada the Canada Cup. Andy Van Hellemond, another Canadian, had the courage to call a fair and even game in Game 3 of the Challenge Cup, but in my opinion, Koharski couldn't measure up to Van Hellemond's standard. I don't blame him - its too much pressure. He failed to make a call when someone dragged down Bykov just before he caught up with Lemieux to break up the winning goal, which cost the Soviets the opportunity to take the game to OT. He choked on his whistle, no two ways.
The 70's and 80's were still at the height of the Cold War, both sides spared no chances to give their sides an advantage in sports (blatant favoritism of Soviet athletes at the Moscow Olympics could be used as a counterpoint if some one really wants to start digging). People need to except that fact and stop making such an issue about it. Stuff happened, both sides were guilty of it, move along.

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02-28-2013, 06:14 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Like Ebencoye said, its not about abandoning ethics, its really about putting a referee in a position where they have to make home town calls, or live with the consequences. As your own personal writing attests, there was bitter hatred toward the Soviets in the '70's and '80's in Canada and the US. It put too much pressure on Koharski to preside over a game in which a perceived bad call cost Canada the Canada Cup. Andy Van Hellemond, another Canadian, had the courage to call a fair and even game in Game 3 of the Challenge Cup, but in my opinion, Koharski couldn't measure up to Van Hellemond's standard. I don't blame him - its too much pressure. He failed to make a call when someone dragged down Bykov just before he caught up with Lemieux to break up the winning goal, which cost the Soviets the opportunity to take the game to OT. He choked on his whistle, no two ways.
I'm sure you've watched enough hockey to know that if you went back and watched things over in slow motion that in every single game you would find numerous missed or questionable calls. The 87 Canada Cup was won fair and square and it is unfortunate that you feel the need to slander Koharski but I guess that is all you really can do.

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02-28-2013, 07:45 PM
  #48
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Annoying thread, but boy do I ever detest the Canada Cup refereeing. Very pro-Canada biased.

I don't take any of those events seriously. Summit Series and Challenge Cup all the way.

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02-28-2013, 07:47 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
I'm sure you've watched enough hockey to know that if you went back and watched things over in slow motion that in every single game you would find numerous missed or questionable calls. The 87 Canada Cup was won fair and square and it is unfortunate that you feel the need to slander Koharski but I guess that is all you really can do.
No, obviously not. No one believes this but the worst homers.

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02-28-2013, 07:50 PM
  #50
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The 70's and 80's were still at the height of the Cold War, both sides spared no chances to give their sides an advantage in sports (blatant favoritism of Soviet athletes at the Moscow Olympics could be used as a counterpoint if some one really wants to start digging). People need to except that fact and stop making such an issue about it. Stuff happened, both sides were guilty of it, move along.
Soviets didn't have many home ice opportunities to even things up, if you will, as far as hockey events are concerned.

What you say is true about the (summer) Moscow Olympics. But those were different sports.

In my opinion, the Soviets were foolish to accept Canada's terms and play in the Canada Cups, which would have otherwise had little prestige. For this reason perhaps they deserve their just desserts. Well, not the players.

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