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Old
02-28-2013, 12:55 AM
  #301
TheHudlinator
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Originally Posted by Remember2004 View Post
So whats the deal with Jankowski? Is it if he develops hes an all star and if he doesn't he's a bust? I guess thats how it is with all prospects ahah nvm but whats the deal behind picking him?
He is a big guy but was passed over in the CHL because up until a year and a half ago he was under 5'10. He is a shifty player, has great hands and offensive instincts. He generally doesn't use his body and isn't amazing defensively but some time in the NCAA should help him it did wonders for Gaudreau. He was the youngest person in his draft and will still be 18 when this years draft happens. The thought is he would have challenged for a top 10/top 5 pick this year if he had been a few days younger.

If he reaches his potential he is a poor mans Joe Thornton (aka the center we have always needed) if not he is most likely a Kyle Brodziak type of player.

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02-28-2013, 12:55 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Look at Ottawa
To be honest, we had the Calgary mentality for a long time. Ever since 07 playoff run, Sens continued to retool and patch by signing players like Kovalev, Gonchar. It took a poor coach, injury to Spezza, and bad goaltending in 10-11 that forced us to rebuild (we finished poorly).

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02-28-2013, 01:35 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
I actually want to rebuild through the draft but I also want to trade for young proven talent as well. My point was calling this team a "non playoff" team 37.5% of the way through the season after an overtime loss is just moronic. Will we make it? Probably not but no body knows and losing in overtime doesn't really prove it one way or the other.
Acquiring young talent is always acceptable, provided the team can afford it or goes about it smartly. Trading Brodie and Backlund for O'Reilly would be a terrible mistake, but trading Giordano or Bouwmeester instead - provided the Flames are rebuilding - actually makes sense.

I can why declaring the Flames as anything this is season is still very much premature, but on the other hand, they simply don't deserve the benefit of the doubt anymore for the simple reason of them having squandered every chance they've had at taking a playoff spot for the last three years in a row. Right now, the team is a couple of wins away from a playoff spot. So, it's understandable why saying blow it up seems a little hasty. However, in a month from now, they'll most likely still be a couple of wins away from a playoff spot. In that case, do you still advocate waiting it out and seeing what happens? Or would you suggest selling what they can at the deadline because history indicates that they're probably not going to make it? The fact that the roster can't put three wins together in a row should lend to the idea of Feaster at least exploring trade options for some pieces, like Giordano, Iginla and/or Kipper.

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About the not ever wanting to go through a youth movement, its not hard to understand why some teams don't want to. There are as many success stories as there are failures and while the failures are almost 100% poor management and prospect development most of the time it takes years to tell if they are good or not who is to say we are good now especially prospect development over the last 10 years or so we have been brutal, and as long as Ward is on the Heat I doubt it gets much better.

While I support a rebuild (and a proper one) I don't think it is crazy to not want one because simply we have seen how brutal it is when it goes bad thank god we found Iggy and Kipper out of it, and not only that we have seen how long it can take to find talent in the draft even with high draft picks.
I can understand a team not wanting to gamble on a youth movement, especially when the current product is still selling tickets at a high rate. But in that case, the organization should ensure that their drafting and developing process are top notch. For example, New Jersey and Detroit have lost incredible amounts of talent over the last decade - Shanahan, Federov, Yzerman, Hull, Hasek, to name a few for the Wings and Neidermayer, Refalski, Parise, Stevens for the Devils. But neither of those teams has ever missed a beat despite that talent loss (New Jersey did finish 8th last a few years ago, but that was a more of a coaching issue - after they fired John MacLean, they did much better). Those teams managed to stay competitive because they put a significant emphasis on drafting and proper development. Just because they wanted to win now didn't prevent them from still developing their own talent.

Calgary didn't do any of that however. And that's why rebuilding for this team isn't a choice, it's an inevitability. They chose to rely on an aging core (which was poorly assembled) and refused to, or were simply unable to augment it to the necessary level. And now, as Kipper and Iginla can longer carry the team on their backs, there's no more playoffs. The Flames didn't draft well, they developed what they did draft horrendously and thus, they are where they are. They can't have their cake and eat too.

Like I said, this is not a case of choosing to rebuild or not, it's a matter of choosing how the Flames are going to enter an inevitable rebuilding stage. Are they going go in prepared to some degree by moving off assets and stockpiling picks and prospects or are they going to be dragged into one kicking and screaming, and thereby making a four to six year process into a seven to 10 year ordeal?

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02-28-2013, 02:38 AM
  #304
Adirondack Flames
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Originally Posted by Remember2004 View Post
So whats the deal with Jankowski? Is it if he develops hes an all star and if he doesn't he's a bust? I guess thats how it is with all prospects ahah nvm but whats the deal behind picking him?
I'm not sure what you mean bu "what's the deal", but I will try. Jankowski is a big center that skates very well, has great vision, passing ability and instincts. He has all the tools to be a top line center, he is just expected to take longer to develop.

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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
To be honest, we had the Calgary mentality for a long time. Ever since 07 playoff run, Sens continued to retool and patch by signing players like Kovalev, Gonchar. It took a poor coach, injury to Spezza, and bad goaltending in 10-11 that forced us to rebuild (we finished poorly).
What? 2010-11 had very little to do with the Senators turnaround. Zibanejad is the only player from the 2011 draft (or later) on the team and while he has been playing well he is hardly the reason the Senators turned it around.

The reason the Senators turned it around are:

1. Erik Karlsson - a mid 1st round pick that turned into one of the best defensemen in the NHL.
2. Craig Anderson - who was acquired in a trade for a prospect and a pick.

You need to lay of the kool-aid if you think that tanking in 2010-11 has anything to do with them turning it around.

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02-28-2013, 08:38 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
To be honest, we had the Calgary mentality for a long time. Ever since 07 playoff run, Sens continued to retool and patch by signing players like Kovalev, Gonchar. It took a poor coach, injury to Spezza, and bad goaltending in 10-11 that forced us to rebuild (we finished poorly).
Your drafting has always been there though.

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02-28-2013, 09:32 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by InfinityIggy View Post
Other than a questionable Jankowski pick, Feaster and co have been quite good at the Draft.
How do you figure?

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02-28-2013, 09:38 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Remember2004 View Post
So whats the deal with Jankowski? Is it if he develops hes an all star and if he doesn't he's a bust? I guess thats how it is with all prospects ahah nvm but whats the deal behind picking him?
The thought behind picking Jankowski was that he could be the best player in like a decade. That he could develop his body and play (skill's there) and be that big top line Center Calgary needs.
The issue I had with the pick, and what many others I deal with (not HF Calgary fanboys) had with the pick; is it's a long shot that he develops into that big time player, that Calgary doesn't have the luxury of drafting huge projects with their first round picks and that there was a top 10 pick from almost every single legitimate ranking system still on the board when Calgary traded down from their spot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
The thought is he would have challenged for a top 10/top 5 pick this year if he had been a few days younger.

If he reaches his potential he is a poor mans Joe Thornton (aka the center we have always needed) if not he is most likely a Kyle Brodziak type of player.
I don't think he goes anywhere in the top 10 this year even. More than likely his goalie, Jon Gillies has the biggest jump if he were to be drafted in 2013.

Also, there's the chance he never graces the NHL; probably unlikely after his rookie campaign here, but still a possibility.

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02-28-2013, 09:40 AM
  #308
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How do you figure?
Going from 2011 only, because 2012 is far too early to see who's who.
Sven, Granlund, Wotherspoon, Gaudreau and Brossoit
All seem to have decent shots at becoming NHLers. The 2011 was actually a pretty damn good draft year from Calgary, how new is that? lol

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02-28-2013, 09:47 AM
  #309
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For those who want to blow 'er up, I think you need to read this:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1298875

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02-28-2013, 09:52 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Miokid View Post
Going from 2011 only, because 2012 is far too early to see who's who.
Sven, Granlund, Wotherspoon, Gaudreau and Brossoit
All seem to have decent shots at becoming NHLers. The 2011 was actually a pretty damn good draft year from Calgary, how new is that? lol
How do you figure?

I know I'm being facetious, but my point is this: which draftee(s) panned out as projected since we've "reformed" our drafting strategy with Feaster & co? And how do we know it's been reformed?

Seriously asking.

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02-28-2013, 10:18 AM
  #311
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Originally Posted by Abbotsford Heat View Post
The reason the Senators turned it around are:
Of course, I just mean that we started selling off assets 10-11 season, and every year before there was an attempt to remain competitive. Our GM was very close to getting fired for that poor season.

Murray (our GM) has been like Feaster in that they always try to be competitive (unlike Oilers). Our rebuild draft hasn't given its fruit yet, so a rebuild isn't completely necessary, just need to be smart and evaluate properly as many have said.


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02-28-2013, 10:42 AM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Miokid View Post
I don't think he goes anywhere in the top 10 this year even. More than likely his goalie, Jon Gillies has the biggest jump if he were to be drafted in 2013.

Also, there's the chance he never graces the NHL; probably unlikely after his rookie campaign here, but still a possibility.
There is no way to tell as he most likely would have gone the USHL route instead of the NCAA, look at Girgensons he was a 14th pick and I believe Janko would have out produced him. It isn't impossible to see Janko raising into the top 10 if he goes the USHL route as most players that enter the nhl draft are not in the NCAA.

If you look at Matthew Nieto he went in the 2nd round as a 19 year old after putting up 23 points in 39 games if he was a year younger and the small size he could have easily risen.

Its all alot of argument over nothing through as we will never know, of course there is a chance he never graces the nhl but that is true for all players the real boom or bust part of Janko isn't will he make the nhl it is where will he fit. He is large enough to be an effective 4th liner it depends on how is skills translate to pro hockey.

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02-28-2013, 10:51 AM
  #313
Sean Monahan
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Murray had the balls to trade favorites like Fisher and Kelly when they had to. Hopefully Feaster can man up and do the same

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02-28-2013, 11:08 AM
  #314
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Murray had the balls to trade favorites like Fisher and Kelly when they had to. Hopefully Feaster can man up and do the same
I agree I hope Feaster can do the same but we don't know how those trades will work out for a while as their main pieces Shane Prince and Stefan Noesen are still in the CHL.

The reason Ottawa rebounded so well isn't because of their poor season it is the several years of drafting before hand mixed with good trading as well as not trading away the entire team when it went bad
2009 - Cowen (9th overall), Silfverberg (39th), Lenher(46th not important to the rebound just a great pick)
2008 - Karlsson(15th), Wiercioch(42nd), Smith(79th)
2006- Foligno(29th)

They kept
Phillips, Spezza, Michalek, Alfredsson

They made smart trades for
Anderson
Bishop
Methot
Turris

The reason I have a problem with the burn it to the ground mentality is that as Edmonton is showing it is a very long process with lots of growing pains. Making smart trades greatly reduces the length of a rebuild as well as consistent drafting. If Feaster is currently drafting well (which most of us believe) then we should be looking at making smart trades to help rebuild just not simple everyone because we can.

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02-28-2013, 11:33 AM
  #315
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meh, point was that they got picks and they made space for the younger guys. Zack Smith for example is developing into one nasty pest that wins a lot of draws. Colin Greening has shown he's a NHLer as well.

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02-28-2013, 11:36 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Jarome Iginla View Post
meh, point was that they got picks and they made space for the younger guys. Zack Smith for example is developing into one nasty pest that wins a lot of draws. Colin Greening has shown he's a NHLer as well.
Yes I agree but just trading everyone generally doesn't work, Ottawa is the best example of how to rebuild.

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02-28-2013, 11:41 AM
  #317
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then we need to trade the deadweights and let the likes of Sven, Horak, and Reinhart play their way up

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02-28-2013, 11:45 AM
  #318
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then we need to trade the deadweights and let the likes of Sven, Horak, and Reinhart play their way up
Reinhart is not ready for the nhl let him be, Sven is getting a shot now, Horak needs this year to be the go to guy on the Heat to help his offensive game. Who would you consider 'deadweight' that needs to be traded?

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02-28-2013, 11:57 AM
  #319
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Originally Posted by TheHudlinator View Post
Reinhart is not ready for the nhl let him be, Sven is getting a shot now, Horak needs this year to be the go to guy on the Heat to help his offensive game. Who would you consider 'deadweight' that needs to be traded?
I think we can all agree, Comeau

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02-28-2013, 01:32 PM
  #320
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I think we can all agree, Comeau
Well yes but I don't really want Horak on the 4th line so that doesn't do alot.

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02-28-2013, 03:33 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by HavlatMach9 View Post
Of course, I just mean that we started selling off assets 10-11 season, and every year before there was an attempt to remain competitive. Our GM was very close to getting fired for that poor season.

Murray (our GM) has been like Feaster in that they always try to be competitive (unlike Oilers). Our rebuild draft hasn't given its fruit yet, so a rebuild isn't completely necessary, just need to be smart and evaluate properly as many have said.
Which is exactly what Feaster has been doing. People seem to forget that when he took over the club they were right at the cap, seemingly every player had a NMC and they were one of the oldest clubs in the in the NHL.

In his first offseason he managed to trade 3 contracts with an NTC or NMC that combined for more than $11 million against the cap and only took back about $4 million in cap hits. Then the new acquisitions played just as well as the players that were traded! I know some like to look down on the Regehr move but man Feaster sold Regehr right before his value bottomed out.

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02-28-2013, 03:39 PM
  #322
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
For those who want to blow 'er up, I think you need to read this:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1298875
thanks for that

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02-28-2013, 04:06 PM
  #323
Calculon
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Originally Posted by MarkGio View Post
For those who want to blow 'er up, I think you need to read this:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1298875
Hence the idea of stockpiling picks. When teams rebuild, they don't rely on a single first round pick to do the job - they accumulate as many as they can. They're essentially hedging their bets. If you have three first round picks, maybe one doesn't pan out, but you'd still have another two chances. That's true for any round really.

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03-01-2013, 12:17 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Calculon View Post
Hence the idea of stockpiling picks. When teams rebuild, they don't rely on a single first round pick to do the job - they accumulate as many as they can. They're essentially hedging their bets. If you have three first round picks, maybe one doesn't pan out, but you'd still have another two chances. That's true for any round really.
It would depend if the events are independent of one another. If, for example, you have 3 first rounds and the stats say you have a 50% chance of getting a bonafide NHL player with a single first rounder, you don't all of a sudden have a 150% chance with 3 picks, instead you have a 50% roll, another 50% roll and then another. It's a crapshoot with each pick. No pick by any means "increases" your chances, it only increases the frequency of your current chance.

It's like the free spin at a slot machine. It gives you blind hope

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