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Daly on impact of realignment on expansion, negotiations w/NHLPA

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Old
02-28-2013, 11:50 AM
  #101
Grudy0
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
http://video.tsn.ca/?dl=nhl-analysis...74299/clip/566

According to this, the NHLPA isn't fond of imbalanced conferences, but the NHL really wants both Detroit and Columbus in the Eastern Conference. Detroit has supposedly been promised a move east, and the Blue Jacket's survival could depend on them moving east.
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
It should've been obvious that the PA wouldn't like it since that was part of what they were against in the first place. The only thing is though that in order to have a scheduling matrix and Playoff seeding as they want it, then having all the ETZ teams in the East is the fair thing to do, so that Detroit and Columbus don't have to deal with a Conference schedule in the West nor crossover seeding in the Playoffs.
So now we get the true impetus:

The NHL and NHLPA have been negotiating for three-plus weeks, so the NHL decides to leak their preferred alignment and matrix. And the NHLPA isn't necessarily on board with this plan.

Smart.

Back at the end of 2011, the League wanted strict top-four, four-conference playoffs. This leaked proposal allows for the wildcard at the expense of moving Detroit and Columbus to the Eastern Conference. Both these formats pretty much allowed every Eastern Time Zone team to have most of the regular and postseason games to be no more than one hour behind Eastern time.

Does anyone see what the NHL is beholden to with this alignment yet?

And it still doesn't seem to address the players' main concern: qualification for the playoffs.

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02-28-2013, 12:04 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
So now we get the true impetus:

The NHL and NHLPA have been negotiating for three-plus weeks, so the NHL decides to leak their preferred alignment and matrix. And the NHLPA isn't necessarily on board with this plan.

Smart.
Alright, we're back in October again. Do we have enough napkins?

Is the alignment of any other league as contentious as in the NHL? A bunch of teams in two different countries. The bottom of the map is the forbidden zone. Go too far west and there's a void where you're not quite sure if anything is happening, but here and there you hear snippets of information. A couple teams exist on the event horizon of the void, and wish to be seen again. Then there's the center of the NHL universe, which is very delicate, and to disturb it, would cause possible implosion of it, and all that surrounds it.

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02-28-2013, 12:07 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
more evidence for why the Florida teams should be in the Division with the NYC area teams:
http://www.census.gov/newsroom/relea...ion_map_v6.pdf

New Yorkers flock to Florida and Gov. Scott is pleased
http://www.postonpolitics.com/2012/1...tt-is-pleased/

together with the Pennsylvania teams and Washington... Just so no one gets the idea that I'm suggesting breaking up the current Atlantic Divsion.
Would there be a better benefit for them going with the New York teams than the Canadians? What's the number on the snowbirds?

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02-28-2013, 12:19 PM
  #104
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Would there be a better benefit for them going with the New York teams than the Canadians? What's the number on the snowbirds?
Sincerely, don't know how the numbers with the snowbirds compare. But I'd rather depend on people who actually live in Florida rather than how many people from Canada may fly down to watch games there. And if even if the numbers might be slightly more productive on the snowbird side, there's still the logic of the travel issue, as well as the unnecessary extra border crossing games, all of which makes putting the Florida teams with the NYC area teams, the Pennsylvania teams, and Washington a sensible alignment.

And there's certainly nothing illogical about keeping Columbus with Detroit, both coming from the old Central Division into the new Central Division. If Pittsburgh can't see fit to join them, then it has to be Carolina.

And on top of that, the Florida teams themselves voted against being added in with the eastern Canadian teams, and Montreal voted against it as well.

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02-28-2013, 12:31 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
So now we get the true impetus:

The NHL and NHLPA have been negotiating for three-plus weeks, so the NHL decides to leak their preferred alignment and matrix. And the NHLPA isn't necessarily on board with this plan.

Smart.

Back at the end of 2011, the League wanted strict top-four, four-conference playoffs. This leaked proposal allows for the wildcard at the expense of moving Detroit and Columbus to the Eastern Conference. Both these formats pretty much allowed every Eastern Time Zone team to have most of the regular and postseason games to be no more than one hour behind Eastern time.

Does anyone see what the NHL is beholden to with this alignment yet?

And it still doesn't seem to address the players' main concern: qualification for the playoffs.
Well there you go. The League tinkered with the previous proposal a bit, adding in some things that the PA wanted, but changing other things in a way that didn't at all address other issues that the PA had. Now the PA has to either reject it again, or find a way to accept certain things they have issue with in order to gain in other areas.

The League has certainly given the PA a proposal now which is awkward at best. It's almost as if it's a punishment offer for having rejected the other. 'Ok, you want this, fine,... but now you have to deal with this as a result.' The League playing a bit of dirty pool, perhaps learned from Fehr's tactics.

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02-28-2013, 12:33 PM
  #106
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And there's certainly nothing illogical about keeping Columbus with Detroit, both coming from the old Central Division into the new Central Division. If Pittsburgh can't see fit to join them, then it has to be Carolina.
I don't get Pittsburgh's take in all this. Is being grouped with Buffalo, Columbus, Detroit, and the hockey epicenter all that bad?

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02-28-2013, 12:39 PM
  #107
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I don't get Pittsburgh's take in all this. Is being grouped with Buffalo, Columbus, Detroit, and the hockey epicenter all that bad?
Do you really think the NHL wants to break up the Flyers/Penguins rivalry right now?

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02-28-2013, 12:43 PM
  #108
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It should've been obvious that the PA wouldn't like it since that was part of what they were against in the first place. The only thing is though that in order to have a scheduling matrix and Playoff seeding as they want it, then having all the ETZ teams in the East is the fair thing to do, so that Detroit and Columbus don't have to deal with a Conference schedule in the West nor crossover seeding in the Playoffs.

Will say this though, having the unbalanced Conferences makes the Regular Season schedule matrix a nightmare. I don't know what's worse, having one of Detroit or Columbus in the West under a 2-Conference system, or having both of them in the East and having to put together a scheduling matrix around the unbalanced Conferences.
Was it that bad in the 93-94 and 94-95 seasons when the Eastern Conference had 14 teams and the Western Conference had 12 teams?

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02-28-2013, 12:46 PM
  #109
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I don't get Pittsburgh's take in all this. Is being grouped with Buffalo, Columbus, Detroit, and the hockey epicenter all that bad?
Well it's true, Pittsburgh - Philadephia Playoff series isn't anywhere in the top-15 of most frequent matchups. But they've had a few really intense series in recent years under that horrible 6-Division format that doesn't help to build rivalries. I would think that Pittsburgh would have just as great or even a greater chance of building rivalries with the teams you listed... But hey, in the end, it's just not having the Florida teams in with the Canadian teams which is the priority, however that can be achieved.

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02-28-2013, 12:48 PM
  #110
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Was it that bad in the 93-94 and 94-95 seasons when the Eastern Conference had 14 teams and the Western Conference had 12 teams?
I don't know. I don't think any of us here were analyzing the Regular Season scheduling matrix at that time.
Was there a home-and-home between every team in the League then?
How many games were there against Conference opponents and how many against Divisional opponents?
And of course there were fewer teams then, so the scheduling numbers would've worked out differently.


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02-28-2013, 12:56 PM
  #111
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I don't know. I don't think any of us here were analyzing the Regular Season scheduling matrix at that time.
Was there a home-and-home between every team in the League then?
How many games were there against Conference opponents and how many against Divisional opponents?
And of course there were fewer teams then.
True there were fewer teams, but the imbalance issue was still there. I'm just curious of how big of an issue that was made back in that day.

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02-28-2013, 01:01 PM
  #112
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Well it's true, Pittsburgh - Philadephia Playoff series isn't anywhere in the top-15 of most frequent matchups. But they've had a few really intense series in recent years under that horrible 6-Division format that doesn't help to build rivalries. I would think that Pittsburgh would have just as great or even a greater chance of building rivalries with the teams you listed... But hey, in the end, it's just not having the Florida teams in with the Canadian teams which is the priority, however that can be achieved.
It didn't help build Phi/Pit. That's built in from the Patrick and Atlantic divisions.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...934095&page=10

A couple posts from the Dallas board about realignment. Potential arbitration to figure out alignment. That sounds about right for the NHL.

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02-28-2013, 01:02 PM
  #113
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I'm really not sure how this is the final system they came up with considering they consulted with the PA.

It doesn't solve either of the PA's main issues. Which was imbalanced chances to make the playoffs. And Travel. Not entirely sure how moving Detroit and Columbus suddenly solves travel issues.

Florida and Tampa still have to travel to Canada all the time for divisional games. They could have decreased travel by grouping Dallas with Tampa, Florida, etc and Winnipeg, Minnesota, Chicago with Detroit Toronto etc. They seemed to want to keep time zones in line as much as possible rather than grouping teams closer geographically.

Also, there is nothign Central about the central divison. What a stupid name.
Florida and TB are in the Central division because lots of their fans are snowbirds coming from MTL, TO, Ott, Detroit,etc...

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02-28-2013, 01:09 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Shockmaster View Post
http://video.tsn.ca/?dl=nhl-analysis...74299/clip/566

According to this, the NHLPA isn't fond of imbalanced conferences, but the NHL really wants both Detroit and Columbus in the Eastern Conference. Detroit has supposedly been promised a move east, and the Blue Jacket's survival could depend on them moving east.
I don't understand this and it isn't just because after years of wanting to get east finally it has happened as a Detroit fan. The biggest head scratcher is the unbalanced conferences while they hurt some eastern voting teams shouldn't be a big problem for every player. While looking long-term it is also clear the NHL will grow jobs for the PA just to fix this. The 8 and 7 in both conferences basically makes that a non-issue that the league can then punish the players with for not going along.

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02-28-2013, 01:17 PM
  #115
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At first, it would be 8,7,8,7 with one of DET/CBJ in the Northeast. If PHX relocates, and there are teams in SEA, QUE and the GTA, then DET/CBJ moves back. Obviously having even conferences is a priority. And no divisional playoff/wildcard nonsense.
If you're dealing with what you have now why don't you put both 7 team divisions in the west? For example:
New Atlantic: Pit, Philly, Det, CBJ, Was,Car, TB, Fl
New Central: Nash, Dal, Col, Wpg, Min, STL, Chi

and you can figure out the rest. This allows the NY teams to keep Boston, Boston to keep Montreal, Montreal to keep Toronto, and Toronto to keep Buffalo and Ottawa,

It allows Philly to keep Pitt, Pitt to get CBJ, Det finally moves east and (for the most part) the South-East stays together.

It puts all of the CTZ teams together with Colorado being the only outlier.

It keeps the three North-West Canadian teams together while removing a time-zone from their division.

And it keeps most of the Pacific together while removing a team that is two time-zones away.


Last edited by DyerMaker66: 03-01-2013 at 01:03 AM.
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02-28-2013, 01:23 PM
  #116
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It didn't help build Phi/Pit. That's built in from the Patrick and Atlantic divisions.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...934095&page=10

A couple posts from the Dallas board about realignment. Potential arbitration to figure out alignment. That sounds about right for the NHL.
If I had to guess, guys, based on some kind of reasoning (if that has anything to do with anything), I'd say that the issue with the PA perhaps has changed a bit with this new alignment.

First, I think the PA's objection has to do with fairness in competition with 4 unbalanced Conferences.
Now, I'd suspect that it has more to do with unbalance in travel, as having the Western Conference Divisions with only 7 teams each means that those team then have to travel more outside their Divisions in order to complete their Season schedule. And whereas the West automatically has more distance and Time Zones, then that just adds an additional imbalance in the travel burden.
Remind me, guys, does that proposed schedule back up this idea, or am I totally wrong?

Like again, the League will get you one way, or it'll get you another.

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02-28-2013, 01:34 PM
  #117
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Chimera who is the Capitals union rep mentioned a few weeks back how it was unfair for Winnipeg to be a the sole CDN team in a division. I wonder if that is also an issue the PA might be having in addition to the others mentioned?

I know Jets ownership personally doesn't have a problem with it.

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02-28-2013, 01:47 PM
  #118
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Chimera should go find a group of investors in Regina or Saskatoon then.

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02-28-2013, 01:58 PM
  #119
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If I had to guess, guys, based on some kind of reasoning (if that has anything to do with anything), I'd say that the issue with the PA perhaps has changed a bit with this new alignment.

First, I think the PA's objection has to do with fairness in competition with 4 unbalanced Conferences.
Which does remain unchanged. IIRC, Fehr mentioned that they didn't like how before the puck dropped on the first game, the odds of making the playoffs in an 8-team conference was 50 percent, while the odds for a 7-team conference were 57 percent.

The only thing that's changed? The odds for making the playoffs in the proposed Eastern Conference is 50 percent, and the odds for making the Western Conference playoffs is 57 percent.
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Now, I'd suspect that it has more to do with unbalance in travel, as having the Western Conference Divisions with only 7 teams each means that those team then have to travel more outside their Divisions in order to complete their Season schedule. And whereas the West automatically has more distance and Time Zones, then that just adds an additional imbalance in the travel burden.
Remind me, guys, does that proposed schedule back up this idea, or am I totally wrong?
In the NHL-approved December 2011 plan:
the 8-team "Pacific Conference" would have 41 home games, 16 games in the Eastern Time Zone, six games in the Central Time Zone, and 19 games in-conference. The proposed setup basically swaps out three in-conference games for three Central Time Zone games.

the 8-team "Central Conference" would have 41 home games, 14 out-of-conference games in the Eastern Time Zone, 8 out-of-conference games in the Mountain and Pacific Time Zones, and the remaining 19 games in-conference, mainly Central, but with Detroit and Columbus being Eastern Time Zone. The proposed setup removes Detroit and Columbus and adds Colorado, so technically the new "Midwest Division" would reduce a couple of Eastern Time Zone away games in deference to adding a few more Mountain and Pacific games.

the Eastern Time Zone would gain pretty much nothing, as they still would have only a home-and-home against the Western Conference. They just have a little more extra-division, in-conference play in deference to only playing the other "eastern conference" twice per season.

Quote:
Like again, the League will get you one way, or it'll get you another.
It could get interesting, especially if this does have to head to an arbitrator.

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02-28-2013, 02:00 PM
  #120
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I don't get Pittsburgh's take in all this. Is being grouped with Buffalo, Columbus, Detroit, and the hockey epicenter all that bad?
I genuinely don't believe the Penguins would be all that bothered by shifting divisions/conferences. It happened once before, remember.

It's the Flyers who don't want the Penguins to move. Remember that the Flyers are owned by Comcast. The value of Flyers TV broadcasts no doubt is increased by having the Flyers play against the Penguins more often. Hence the Flyers owner has a direct monetary interest in maximizing the number of games against the Penguins (and the New York teams), hence the great resistance to breaking that particular alignment.

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02-28-2013, 02:05 PM
  #121
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Which does remain unchanged. IIRC, Fehr mentioned that they didn't like how before the puck dropped on the first game, the odds of making the playoffs in an 8-team conference was 50 percent, while the odds for a 7-team conference were 57 percent.

The only thing that's changed? The odds for making the playoffs in the proposed Eastern Conference is 50 percent, and the odds for making the Western Conference playoffs is 57 percent.In the NHL-approved December 2011 plan:
the 8-team "Pacific Conference" would have 41 home games, 16 games in the Eastern Time Zone, six games in the Central Time Zone, and 19 games in-conference. The proposed setup basically swaps out three in-conference games for three Central Time Zone games.

the 8-team "Central Conference" would have 41 home games, 14 out-of-conference games in the Eastern Time Zone, 8 out-of-conference games in the Mountain and Pacific Time Zones, and the remaining 19 games in-conference, mainly Central, but with Detroit and Columbus being Eastern Time Zone. The proposed setup removes Detroit and Columbus and adds Colorado, so technically the new "Midwest Division" would reduce a couple of Eastern Time Zone away games in deference to adding a few more Mountain and Pacific games.
Starting to sound like the NHLPA wants to keep it at 6 divisions.

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02-28-2013, 02:17 PM
  #122
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Starting to sound like the NHLPA wants to keep it at 6 divisions.
I don't think that's the case.

They'd like two conference of 15 teams. The division of those teams is what would "make or break" it.

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02-28-2013, 02:18 PM
  #123
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I genuinely don't believe the Penguins would be all that bothered by shifting divisions/conferences. It happened once before, remember.

It's the Flyers who don't want the Penguins to move. Remember that the Flyers are owned by Comcast. The value of Flyers TV broadcasts no doubt is increased by having the Flyers play against the Penguins more often. Hence the Flyers owner has a direct monetary interest in maximizing the number of games against the Penguins (and the New York teams), hence the great resistance to breaking that particular alignment.
If I remember correctly, 16 months ago it was Pittsburgh complaining about being separated from the Flyers, and Philadelphia stepped in and backed Pittsburgh up in that argument. However, at that time they were also looking at a scheduling matrix that would limit games between to two to only 2 if they were in different Conferences. I guess this new scheduling matrix doesn't change that much.

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02-28-2013, 02:22 PM
  #124
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Another article that may be of interest to some to read:
Proposed NHL realignment creates competitive inequity
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle9103095/

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02-28-2013, 02:22 PM
  #125
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I don't think that's the case.

They'd like two conference of 15 teams. The division of those teams is what would "make or break" it.
And with 16 teams in the ETZ, there is no alignment of 15 in one conference and 1 in the other that can occur without enraging that 1 and ensuring that the alignment will not pass the BOG. Because either that 1 is Detroit, meaning the Red Wings are enraged about being left in the west and raise hellfire & damnation to prevent it; or it is Columbus, in which case not only are they enraged to be made the western sacrificial lamb but the other 14 western owners rage against losing the Wings as a conference road draw.

The PA had better pick their battle carefully here.

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