HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Chris Kreider

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-28-2013, 12:36 PM
  #201
Thirty One
portnor, pls
 
Thirty One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,688
vCash: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Chris Kreider is 6-3, 230 pounds. Hagelin is 5-11, 180 soaking wet.

You can't expect a huge frame like that to consistently be a pest the way Hagelin is able to do.
Not sure I follow that logic.

__________________


Rangers Unlimited
Hockey Graphs
Thirty One is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:37 PM
  #202
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ailurophile View Post



That's wonderful.

See above.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:39 PM
  #203
Thirty One
portnor, pls
 
Thirty One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,688
vCash: 420
It's not a double standard, guys. He has one standard for Kreider, and a different, distinct standard for everyone else.

Thirty One is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:39 PM
  #204
Riche16
McCready guitar god
 
Riche16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: FL
Country: United States
Posts: 3,700
vCash: 500
If CK is paying close attention to defensive responsibilities (and I think that's a big part of this) then what we are seeing is exactly what we should all expect.

He's not going to be able to do it all right away, and if you think about how lost he looked in those playoff games last yr defensively you know he needed this.

Let him develop and become someone who can play two-way hockey and then once he "gets" that part of things he can go back to trying to light the lamp.

It's going to take time...

Is it learned at this level or do they send him down? That can be debated.

Riche16 is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:41 PM
  #205
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Not sure I follow that logic.
Unsurprising, but let's examine it anyway.

Big guy, weighs a lot, takes more energy to get big body from point A to point B.

Hagelin, smaller guy, weighs 50 pounds less, takes less energy to get smaller body from point A to point B.

Hagelin can persistently use his speed to his advantage.

Kreider, while he has straightaway speed, is going to have shorter shifts if we are expecting him to fit a role like Hagelin.

Hagelin and Callahan are very similar.

Kreider is a different kind of player. And he's a player that would benefit from the open space that Nash would create.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:45 PM
  #206
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
If CK is paying close attention to defensive responsibilities (and I think that's a big part of this) then what we are seeing is exactly what we should all expect.

He's not going to be able to do it all right away, and if you think about how lost he looked in those playoff games last yr defensively you know he needed this.

Let him develop and become someone who can play two-way hockey and then once he "gets" that part of things he can go back to trying to light the lamp.

It's going to take time...

Is it learned at this level or do they send him down? That can be debated.
Well he's not on the ice for a lot of goals against. As i pointed out before. There is a breakdown of the numbers.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:45 PM
  #207
Hellion
Stone Age Hockey
 
Hellion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Stavanger, Norway
Country: Norway
Posts: 5,458
vCash: 500
Quote:
Chris Kreider is 6-3, 230 pounds. Hagelin is 5-11, 180 soaking wet.

You can't expect a huge frame like that to consistently be a pest the way Hagelin is able to do.
Like Rick Nash (6-4, 218) you mean?
I thought Kreider, with his strenght, size and speed would be able to create some chances on his own by holding the puck and crashing the net. Much like Nash does

Hellion is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:48 PM
  #208
Riche16
McCready guitar god
 
Riche16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: FL
Country: United States
Posts: 3,700
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Well he's not on the ice for a lot of goals against. As i pointed out before. There is a breakdown of the numbers.
Right. I was agreeing with you.

Riche16 is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:49 PM
  #209
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
Like Rick Nash (6-4, 218) you mean?
I thought Kreider, with his strenght, size and speed would be able to create some chances on his own by holding the puck and crashing the net. Much like Nash does
Does Rick Nash play the same way Carl Hagelin?

Rick Nash, AS I POINTED OUT EARLIER, uses his body to bull his way with control of the puck.

He doesn't use his speed consistently to win races to pucks and be a pest like Hagelin and Callahan do. Different players for different roles.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:50 PM
  #210
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riche16 View Post
Right. I was agreeing with you.
I know, I was just agreeing with you too.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:51 PM
  #211
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
Like Rick Nash (6-4, 218) you mean?
I thought Kreider, with his strenght, size and speed would be able to create some chances on his own by holding the puck and crashing the net. Much like Nash does
Kreider doesn't play that way. He doesn't control the puck. He isn't a puck possession type of player.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:52 PM
  #212
Thirty One
portnor, pls
 
Thirty One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,688
vCash: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Well he's not on the ice for a lot of goals against. As i pointed out before. There is a breakdown of the numbers.
Behind The Net has him as the 5th highest goals against per TOI.

Thirty One is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:54 PM
  #213
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Behind The Net has him as the 5th highest goals against per TOI.
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...0&sortdir=DESC

Opponent Goals For per 20.

And I can go back through his game log, as well, if you'd like.

In 11 games he's been on the ice for 4 goals against and 4 goals for.

He's on the ice for a lot of goals against?

3-4 loss to Winnipeg, 3-1 loss to Montreal, 2 in a 6-3 beating by Pittsburgh.

Only 3 of his 11 games he was on the ice for a goal against.


Last edited by SupersonicMonkey*: 02-28-2013 at 01:00 PM.
SupersonicMonkey* is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:55 PM
  #214
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,710
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
And, then break down which zone Kreider has spent the bulk of his shifts.

Playing on the 3rd-4th lines with guys like Boyle, Pyatt, Asham, Powe, Halpern, Mashinter majority of the time, and they've spent a lot of time in the neutral zone struggling to gain the zone. And the defensive zone, being pinned.

So, yes, shots on goal will decrease.

I know it's hard for some ^^^^ to grasp deeper concepts and break downs of the game. Things aren't as cut and dry.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/glossary.php

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...0&sortdir=DESC

There are only 6 forwards on the roster who average being on the ice for more goals for per 20 minutes.

Kreider is on the ice for the LEAST amount of opponent goals for per 20 minutes

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...0&sortdir=DESC

Most neutral zone faceoffs

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...T&sortdir=DESC

Not on the ice for many offensive zone faceoffs

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...T&sortdir=DESC

Quality of his linemates offense is bad.

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...T&sortdir=DESC

Faces stiff quality of opponent defense

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...C&sortdir=DESC

Kreider hasn't been in the best position to succeed offensively. Not his linemates, not where he plays the bulk of his shifts (neutral and defensive zone).

He should be playing in a position where he can succeed. It would be easier to put him in one if Gaborik and Richards were doing their jobs offensively.

Kyle Palmieri is riding shot gun and being carried by Getzlaf and Perry.

Getzlaf and Perry are doing their job offensively. The team's leaders are doing their jobs. The coaching staff and the organization can allot a young player like Palmieri the opportunity to develop along side those top performers.

If Kreider were riding shotgun with Nash, he would be on the ice for more offensive zone faceoffs, he would be on the attack for more of his shifts, he would be able to go to the net and bang in some rebounds and deflections.

Player development.
Now to disagree with you is to not understand concepts. Do all the analysis you wish. It won't alter that Kreider doesn't look like the same player as last year. I assume he will again, but telling us that we don't understand the game or its concepts makes you sound comical an condescending.

Simple solution for young players: Play well, earn more minutes. That is how it has always been, no matter how much you stamp your feet and try to impart your wisdom to us ignorants.

chosen is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:57 PM
  #215
pld459666
Registered User
 
pld459666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Danbury, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 16,687
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
Like Rick Nash (6-4, 218) you mean?
I thought Kreider, with his strenght, size and speed would be able to create some chances on his own by holding the puck and crashing the net. Much like Nash does
Kreider is not, nor has he ever been as crafty with the puck as Nash is.

Kreider has a good shot, but he's not a puck carrier and while he and Nash may be the same size, Nash (because he's a much better stick handler) can do a whole lot more with the puck than Kreider does or can do.

Additionally, Kreider has never demonstrated an ability to generate offence on his own. Guys his size that can do what you suggest get drafted in the top 3. Not 19th.

pld459666 is online now  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:57 PM
  #216
Thirty One
portnor, pls
 
Thirty One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,688
vCash: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rati...0&sortdir=DESC

Opponent Goals For per 20.

And I can go back through his game log, as well, if you'd like.
That stat appears to be in the reverse order of Behind the Net's. Is it possible that a high rating there is a good thing, and you're reading it backwards?

Thirty One is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 12:58 PM
  #217
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,710
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amazing Kreiderman View Post
Judging someone based on his username is ridiculous. The reason I have my username, is because it sounds cooIl, not because I am Kreider's biggest fan. I would love to see him make it as a Ranger, sure, but I won't defend him at all cost. He doesn't play well but I feel the criticism he gets is going too far.

Tortorella doesn't give talents a lot of chances to redeem themselves. If you compare his player management to that of other coaches, it's fair to say he tolerates less of his talents. That, and the way he is letting the team grind for 60 minutes, just don't lead to anything.

Kreider started the season with an injury and is expected to guide a team where the veterans are not performing. I feel people's expectations of Kreider are just unrealistic due to his play-off performance last year
Torts has put tons of youngsters in and trusred many. He doesn't trust Kreider yet.

chosen is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 01:00 PM
  #218
Trxjw
Retired.
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Land of no calls..
Country: United States
Posts: 16,626
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Really?

Hagelin doesn't need to ride shotgun with Nash or Gaborik. Hagelin is a more persistent player and catalyst that creates on his own because of his tenacity and speed. His ability to win races to pucks and get behind defenders.
Ding ding ding! Hagelin doesn't need to ride shotgun with Nash or Gaborik, but he gets that opportunity because he worked his ass off and got to that point after starting out with John Mitchell on the 4th line.

Quote:
Chris Kreider is 6-3, 230 pounds. Hagelin is 5-11, 180 soaking wet.

You can't expect a huge frame like that to consistently be a pest the way Hagelin is able to do.

Hagelin found success with Gaborik and Richards, and Callahan.

Kreider playing with a big puck controlling player like Nash would open a ton of space for Kreider. Kreider relishes going to the net for tip ins and rebounds. And relishes on being open for a shot and streaking down the wing.

Nash relishes controlling the puck and bulling his way to the net.

If the combination works, Kreider could gain confidence and start producing.
So Kreider -- a 6'3 225lb kid who can skate like stink -- now needs someone to open up space for him? Christian Thomas needs someone to open up space for him. Derek Stepan needs someone to open up space for him. Kreider is a manchild on skates that shouldn't need anyone to do anything for him other than get him the puck. You don't need someone "creating space" to crash the net for a rebound or to get into a shooting lane to deflect a puck.

Quote:
Or, you could act like a ****ing child and "holy gargllleeeeezzzzzz" rather then summoning the intellect and grammatical skills to formulate a post that explains your point of view.
My grammar was just fine, but insulting my intelligence totally negates the fact that you managed to contradict yourself entirely on your own. I don't need to explain my point of view in order to point out that you're being unabashedly hypocritical. But hey, calling me a child, or insulting other posters ability "to grasp deeper concepts and break downs of the game" is definitely making me overlook that.

Trxjw is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 01:00 PM
  #219
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,710
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Really?

Hagelin doesn't need to ride shotgun with Nash or Gaborik. Hagelin is a more persistent player and catalyst that creates on his own because of his tenacity and speed. His ability to win races to pucks and get behind defenders.

Chris Kreider is 6-3, 230 pounds. Hagelin is 5-11, 180 soaking wet.

You can't expect a huge frame like that to consistently be a pest the way Hagelin is able to do.

Hagelin found success with Gaborik and Richards, and Callahan.

Kreider playing with a big puck controlling player like Nash would open a ton of space for Kreider. Kreider relishes going to the net for tip ins and rebounds. And relishes on being open for a shot and streaking down the wing.

Nash relishes controlling the puck and bulling his way to the net.

If the combination works, Kreider could gain confidence and start producing.

Or, you could act like a ****ing child and "holy gargllleeeeezzzzzz" rather then summoning the intellect and grammatical skills to formulate a post that explains your point of view.
Nash is big and a pest.

chosen is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 01:03 PM
  #220
Hellion
Stone Age Hockey
 
Hellion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Stavanger, Norway
Country: Norway
Posts: 5,458
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
Does Rick Nash play the same way Carl Hagelin does?

Rick Nash, AS I POINTED OUT EARLIER, useshis body to bull his way with control of the puck.

He doesn't use his speed consistently to win races to pucks and be a pest like Hagelin and Callahan do. Different players for different roles.
No, he is not as shifty of course. But he has strength, speed and balance that he can use.

Being unexperienced and needing to learn is one thing, but what happend to the energy he had last season?

Id like to see Kreider hold the puck and use his physical strenght and speed to create something.

As for now he seems very timid and snake bitten. Not sure if thats because of Torts or not, but he needs to get over it. Getting his mind together in CT seems to be the best option rather than sitting on the bench all night waiting to get a couple of minutes per game on the ice.

Hellion is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 01:05 PM
  #221
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Ding ding ding! Hagelin doesn't need to ride shotgun with Nash or Gaborik, but he gets that opportunity because he worked his ass off and got to that point after starting out with John Mitchell on the 4th line.



So Kreider -- a 6'3 225lb kid who can skate like stink -- now needs someone to open up space for him? Christian Thomas needs someone to open up space for him. Derek Stepan needs someone to open up space for him. Kreider is a manchild on skates that shouldn't need anyone to do anything for him other than get him the puck. You don't need someone "creating space" to crash the net for a rebound or to get into a shooting lane to deflect a puck.



My grammar was just fine, but insulting my intelligence totally negates the fact that you managed to contradict yourself entirely on your own. I don't need to explain my point of view in order to point out that you're being unabashedly hypocritical. But hey, calling me a child, or insulting other posters ability "to grasp deeper concepts and break downs of the game" is definitely making me overlook that.
Different players, play the game differently.

Kreider DOES need a player to open up space for him at this stage of his career. He isn't a puck possession player, which means he won't have control of the puck long enough to draw defenders to him in a way that Nash does.

Playing with the guys he has, and based on where he takes most of the faceoffs hes on the ice for, he won't get that space with them either.

Despite his size, he doesn't play like Nash or Jagr. Puck control isn't his game.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 01:08 PM
  #222
pld459666
Registered User
 
pld459666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Danbury, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 16,687
vCash: 500
I don't think that Kreider is engaging physically enough. I think some of that stems from the short leash that Torts has on him should he make a mistake positionally, while a large part of it is that I don't think that it is in his mental make-up to be a physical player similar to Stepan (not being a physical guy).

I also think that there are guys on this team that are SO concerned with defefensive hockey that they give up some of their more offensive instincts. Thet they peel back when they should pinch.

pld459666 is online now  
Old
02-28-2013, 01:10 PM
  #223
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
No, he is not as shifty of course. But he has strength, speed and balance that he can use.

Being unexperienced and needing to learn is one thing, but what happend to the energy he had last season?

Id like to see Kreider hold the puck and use his physical strenght and speed to create something.

As for now he seems very timid and snake bitten. Not sure if thats because of Torts or not, but he needs to get over it. Getting his mind together in CT seems to be the best option rather than sitting on the bench all night waiting to get a couple of minutes per game on the ice.
Well, keep in mind, he's also coming from NCAA. Where they play far less games then at the pro level, and a far less condensed schedule. NCAA is mostly a weekend league.

He's now on the ice more then he's been, traveling more consistently. And the competition he's facing now is at a significantly higher level, more intelligent, stronger, and the game is faster.

Some players adjust faster then others.

But they could ease his struggles by having the kinds of players on his side that can generate offense more consistently.

Again, his defense hasn't been bad. He hasn't been on the ice for many goals against. 4 in his 11 games. And they all came in 3 of them. 8 of them, no goals against.

So he's clearly made the effort defensively.

His performance will be spotty, as expected from a rookie.

They can utilize his skill sets, by placing him with players that will exploit them. Or continue to place him with players who will not.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 01:11 PM
  #224
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
I don't think that Kreider is engaging physically enough. I think some of that stems from the short leash that Torts has on him should he make a mistake positionally, while a large part of it is that I don't think that it is in his mental make-up to be a physical player similar to Stepan (not being a physical guy).

I also think that there are guys on this team that are SO concerned with defefensive hockey that they give up some of their more offensive instincts. Thet they peel back when they should pinch.
That's a different argument. And fair. If he's engaged enough.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline  
Old
02-28-2013, 01:14 PM
  #225
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 16,229
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chosen View Post
Nash is big and a pest.
Nash isn't a pest the way Callahan and Hagelin are. He doesn't have the motor that those two have.

Nash uses his body to protect the puck.

Kreider isn't there yet, and really never has done that consistently. He's thrives more on opportunity on the rush. And when the puck is in control by his team he will go to the net.

Like it or hate it, its the way he's always played.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:52 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.