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Carlyle is stubborn as Burke

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Old
02-28-2013, 06:32 AM
  #51
Sypher04
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Saying that last night's loss had nothing to do with Orr is incorrect. Every player last night shares some of the blame, as does the coach. No disrespect meant to Orr, but him playing in a 3rd line role serves us absolutely no good, and holds back his line. There is absolutely no justification for having Orr, Brown AND McLaren all in the lineup for one game.

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02-28-2013, 07:16 AM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazeeEddie View Post
I love have whole 'it's not because of this game, I've been meaning to discuss this' yet of course, they only appear after a loss...
Exactly we win tmrw and the Carlyle coach of the year threads will start.

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02-28-2013, 07:43 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Brewsky View Post
Exactly we win tmrw and the Carlyle coach of the year threads will start.
x100.


We're sitting in a tie for 6th with our #1G and 2 of our top-6 wingers injured and Carlyle is stubborn for icing the same lineup!


That's rich.

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Old
02-28-2013, 07:44 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by legendinblue View Post
I don't like Orr with Kadri at all.
I doubt Carlyle likes it much either, but you have to play the hand your dealt.

Would it really make that much difference if McClement was on the Kadri's wing and Steckel was centering the 4th line?

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02-28-2013, 07:48 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by egd27 View Post
I doubt Carlyle likes it much either, but you have to play the hand your dealt.

Would it really make that much difference if McClement was on the Kadri's wing and Steckel was centering the 4th line?
Yes - then we'd only have 3 lines we could play against Montreal.

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Old
02-28-2013, 07:49 AM
  #56
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Orr is on a line with Kadri to give him protection. Not the smartest thing around but it makes sense. Kadri has more room out on the ice when he does but it also hinders the possibility of scoring more

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02-28-2013, 07:55 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by fahad203 View Post
Ok fair, I'll buy that. Then man up, do the right thing and send him home. That way he gets to be with his family, we get a space for another player.
This is what teams wanted to do with Gomez and Redden before the season. Then came whispers of lawsuits...something about denying an opportunity for employment for an able bodied person wanting to fulfill their employment contract, then voila the "accelerated compliance buyout" resulted. I think Komisarek has to sign off on the kind of mothballing that you are suggesting, which I don't think he is prepared to do. (He could also waive his NMC for the Leafs to send him to the Marlies, but probably both him and the Leafs don't want that.)

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Old
02-28-2013, 08:04 AM
  #58
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We have too many players up right now, we actually need to make a trade to unload a dman and a winger so we can call up Gardiner and have room for both lupul and frattin. When they both are back we can put brown in the press box along with steckle. We are going to have like 15 mil in the press box though.
Liles should be playing Kostka needs to take a break he isn't that good, sure its a nice story but I would like to see him traded while he has value, I don't see him lasting very long in this league. Even if its just a move for a late round pick I would be happy at least it makes room on the roster.
Brown is done with this team if you ask me, he was working hard but trying to over compensate since one of him/orr/mcclaren are being benched soon. Orr and McClaren play really well together Brown is the odd man out for sure especially with Hamilton still in the marlies.
We can't put the blame on RC for anything other than not playing Liles but I think he is trying to develop some trade value but I don't know, Nonis is in charge of bringing Gards back up and sending people down.

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Old
02-28-2013, 08:15 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by fahad203 View Post
You do make some excellent suggestions and points. My argument to that is, if you are going to buy out Komi, then buy him out now like Habs and Rangers did. Or send him home. He's practicing with the team, therefore, he can still get injured.
You can't.

There was a brief period prior to the season that you could use the accelerated compliance buyout but I don't think they were sure they wanted to buy him out at that point.

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02-28-2013, 08:26 AM
  #60
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It's a loss. It happens. I'd chalk it up to professional motivation on Montreal's behalf and complacency (which invariably happens when another team thinks they have the other's number) on Toronto's.

But that same stubborn streak in Carlyle's method is the same quality that has him regarded as an unrelenting line matching coach by his peers. And it's just as, if not more than, frustrating to them. And that's a good thing.

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02-28-2013, 08:45 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Parkdale View Post
This is what teams wanted to do with Gomez and Redden before the season. Then came whispers of lawsuits...something about denying an opportunity for employment for an able bodied person wanting to fulfill their employment contract, then voila the "accelerated compliance buyout" resulted. I think Komisarek has to sign off on the kind of mothballing that you are suggesting, which I don't think he is prepared to do. (He could also waive his NMC for the Leafs to send him to the Marlies, but probably both him and the Leafs don't want that.)
He wouldn't pay escrow in the AHL. I would right quick if i was him lol. At 10%(just a guess) escrow he would save a bundle down there. I thought he only had a limited no trade clause though.


Last edited by leafspring*: 02-28-2013 at 08:54 AM.
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02-28-2013, 08:54 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by leafspring View Post
He wouldn't pay escrow in the AHL. I would right quick if i was him lol. At 10% escrow he would save a bundle down there. I thought he only had a limited no trade clause though.
Komi's contract has a limited no trade clause, but i don't think the Leafs want to take back any salary, otherwise it will be better (cap wise) to wait and use a compliance buy-out with him.

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Old
02-28-2013, 09:01 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by fahad203 View Post
I really don't understand logic behind this. I love Orr, but Orr cannot and should not play more than 7 mins a game. Especially when we are down by a goal.

What's the harm in trying different lines? You know Kadri has the hot hands, good play maker, and Kessel needs a good play maker, I thought it was a no brainer.
Orr is on Kadri's line for multiple reasons.

1) He is being rewarded by his coach for his effort and received a promotion from the 4th to the 3rd line joining Kadri, because of that.

2) Kadri is Leafs leading scorer and the teams youngest player and other teams are going to start taking runs and liberties attempting to intimidate him to reduce his effectiveness. Orr as a security guard provides protection against that while riding shotgun. Allowing Kadri the freedom to be creative and focus on the game, while developing rather than the opponents attention against him.

3) Frattin who is Kadri's usual line-mate was/is injured and Orr is simply a temporary fill-in and will replaced on that line when Matty returns.

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02-28-2013, 09:03 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by skacore View Post
Orr/Kadri/Mac was +1 and (once again) one of our best lines... the line works. Kadri needs the puck to be offensive, Orr makes room for him to do that. Not the typical bullsh*t "he makes room for other players", no. Orr ACTUALLY creates room on the ice to play, he's a bull and there's always a man tied up with him. If anyone is out of sync on that line it's Mac, he's missed a lot of passes by Kadri they just seem to be on different schedules. If they ever start clicking, that line will be even more effective.
Give me a break. Orr is useless. Notice that Kadri was dynamite when Orr was injured? Also remember when Kadri had to fight Hedman when Orr was on the ice? I can't believe so many people have bought into the "toughness" narrative. It's so dumb. Skill > goons. "Toughness" is not sending out useless plugs who can't play hockey, but that's what we have been doing. It's embarrassing.

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Old
02-28-2013, 09:11 AM
  #65
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Leaf homers in full force today. Stop thinking you know more than an NHL coach. It's 1 loss to the #1 team in the east. I swear half of you expect to win all 48 games.

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02-28-2013, 09:14 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by leugangen View Post
Give me a break. Orr is useless. Notice that Kadri was dynamite when Orr was injured? Also remember when Kadri had to fight Hedman when Orr was on the ice? I can't believe so many people have bought into the "toughness" narrative. It's so dumb. Skill > goons. "Toughness" is not sending out useless plugs who can't play hockey, but that's what we have been doing. It's embarrassing.
Kadri had 2 assists, none of which came from goals with his linemates. Nice fabrication homer.

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02-28-2013, 09:16 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leugangen View Post
Give me a break. Orr is useless. Notice that Kadri was dynamite when Orr was injured? Also remember when Kadri had to fight Hedman when Orr was on the ice? I can't believe so many people have bought into the "toughness" narrative. It's so dumb. Skill > goons. "Toughness" is not sending out useless plugs who can't play hockey, but that's what we have been doing. It's embarrassing.
So Kadri fighting a Swede who doesn't normally fight or fight at all,makes him as effective as Orr now?Oh man theres so much wrong with that. No one is saying Orr is the perfect line mate but to evne try to suggest that Kadri would be perfectly fine with no protection at all is rather absurd.Not saying keep Orr there but a bigger body that can put up points and fight wouldn't be awful to have

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Old
02-28-2013, 09:18 AM
  #68
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Carlyle is stubbornly, and quietly going about coaching the Leafs to the point he is deserving of coach of the year consideration.

"Sense of entitlement" of veterans, no longer takes precedence, as rewarding players regardless of age, contract and experience instead based on merit, is propelling the organization forward on the ice.

Players like Liles and Komisarek and likely being shopped and hopefully as the trade deadline approaches new homes can be found for them if everything works out. They will only be utilized in a need to situation, when Carlyle deems the tightened schedule, or the opponent, or injuries dictate it.

Besides Gardiner's inevitable return from the AHL is more likely preferable scenario that Nonis and Carlyle would prefer over utilizing pressbox players, which are deemed expendable.

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Old
02-28-2013, 09:29 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by fahad203 View Post
First of all, this is not a rant. An observation. Also this has nothing to do with tonight's game. I been meaning to discuss this, figured this is a good time as any. Personally, I really like his coaching.

He seems to have a personal vendetta against certain players and favours certain others. Some players like Komiserak and Liles can do no right, they are in the press box while players like Kostka and Holzer can do no wrong.

Most coaches, even Babcok, Brudreu they do their best to keep rotating players so they stay in game shape. I know we have a surplus of Ds, but you have to bring them into the game sometime.

We need skaters against good skating team, why Liles a healthy scratch is beyond me.
Komi isnt playing because he down right sucks at hockey, and leafs fans have wanted his head for about 3 years now. So dont all of a sudden since we are now loseing a few games start saying rotate komisarich in.

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02-28-2013, 09:37 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by leugangen View Post
Give me a break. Orr is useless. Notice that Kadri was dynamite when Orr was injured? Also remember when Kadri had to fight Hedman when Orr was on the ice? I can't believe so many people have bought into the "toughness" narrative. It's so dumb. Skill > goons. "Toughness" is not sending out useless plugs who can't play hockey, but that's what we have been doing. It's embarrassing.
This is the stupidest comment Ive seen in a while. The reason why you see kadri throwing big hits and playing his game is because orr is on the ice with him. The only reason kadri had the balls to drop the gloves and throw a punch at hedman was because he was in a scrum and orr was in the middle of that scrum so if anything were to really happen the guy who touches kadri is so longer breathing cuz of orr. I hate when people take out there frustration on the fighters on the leafs. I swear it was Mclaren who got out first goal and brown who got the assist and i swear it was Orr who created space in front for kadri to make a nice pass to macarthur to score, and i swear it was kessel and JVR who went minus 4. If you want anyone to blame, blame the guys who get paid the big bucks to put the puck in the net and go minus 4 and are absent the whole night.

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02-28-2013, 11:40 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by fahad203 View Post
I really don't understand logic behind this. I love Orr, but Orr cannot and should not play more than 7 mins a game. Especially when we are down by a goal.

What's the harm in trying different lines? You know Kadri has the hot hands, good play maker, and Kessel needs a good play maker, I thought it was a no brainer.

I like Kostka, I hope he hands around, but not in the expense of Liles and Komi. I really think Liles could have made a significant difference tonight.
I disagree. If we need energy and we are down by a game but orr's line on the ice. Orr has come through in clutch situations this season on multiple occasions...even scoring goals when we need them to tie up the game.

I like about 95% of what coach Carlyle brings to the table tho... I don't really agree with all the posters who are getting on him.

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02-28-2013, 11:44 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by JimLaheyprobert View Post
This is the stupidest comment Ive seen in a while. The reason why you see kadri throwing big hits and playing his game is because orr is on the ice with him. The only reason kadri had the balls to drop the gloves and throw a punch at hedman was because he was in a scrum and orr was in the middle of that scrum so if anything were to really happen the guy who touches kadri is so longer breathing cuz of orr. I hate when people take out there frustration on the fighters on the leafs. I swear it was Mclaren who got out first goal and brown who got the assist and i swear it was Orr who created space in front for kadri to make a nice pass to macarthur to score, and i swear it was kessel and JVR who went minus 4. If you want anyone to blame, blame the guys who get paid the big bucks to put the puck in the net and go minus 4 and are absent the whole night.
This. Maybe it's taking some time for our fanbase that is still stuck on the paul maurice circa 2006 style of hockey with big mats leading the way....to adjust to the present/modern day.

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02-28-2013, 12:35 PM
  #73
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The only difference between RC and Wilson may be that RC is emphasizing a style of play that is different from what Wilson used and the goals against is down significantly. What coach doesn't preach defensive responsibility and puck possession, only those on a self destructive path I would think. TO's GA is better but shots against hasn't improved so I'm wondering did it never occur to Wilson that the d-men should box out the opposition and clear rebounds. Maybe it never occurred to Wilson that the forwards should come back and participate in defending probably had something to do with the run and gun offense Wilson had going. Maybe it never occurred to Wilson that TO needed better goaltending like RC is getting from Reimer ans Scrivens, that's it I'll bet.

One of the glaring differences between TO this year compared to last is personel, RC didn't have to factor in a Connolly and Lombardi who ultimately offered nothing so he was allowed to use Kadri and Frattin which makes him look like a genius, I'm wondering how much of a genius he would look like if he had to integrate Connolly and Lombardi. Probably would have said that Frattin and Kadri still needed more seasoning I'll bet.

RC is using exactly the same lines that Wilson used except for personnel changes and just like Wilson he is very reluctant to change those lines either on a game to game basis or during in game. Just like Wilson RC has that to mine own line I will always be true philosophy. Whether the line works or not he trudges along believing since I see the line working, in my mind, it will which of coarse flys in the face of logic when TO is losing. Wilson was not adaptable and neither is RC so I'm thinking we need a coach that's always looking for an edge. I think we can already see a Wilsonian indifference settling in on TO's forwards so I think innovation is the only way to reverse this.

How bad is this, lines set in stone mentality, well Frattin get's injured and what does RC do he puts Orr in as a replacement, hello Orr can replace Frattin, not in my world. I would think RC should have beat the bushes on the Leafs or on the farm to find the best replacement not just put anyone in as a replacement. In RC's mind TO's 1st and 2nd lines are never subject to change, no matter the results, TO needs more innovation than that, maybe they'll still lose but maybe they won't lose so ugly.

Who might be a better fit for TO, I don't know but Mike Keenan was never afraid to change lines, defensive pairings and goaltenders because winning was the only acceptable result. How much do you want to bet that TO has the same everything tonite except goaltender which I thought was the only decent thing in TO's game last night.

Ultimately TO needs personnel upgrades but until then a coach that can maximize his assets should be the least we should settle for. I just don't see it in RC.

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Old
02-28-2013, 12:44 PM
  #74
Guy Boucher
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Orr is on Kadri's line for multiple reasons.

1) He is being rewarded by his coach for his effort and received a promotion from the 4th to the 3rd line joining Kadri, because of that.

2) Kadri is Leafs leading scorer and the teams youngest player and other teams are going to start taking runs and liberties attempting to intimidate him to reduce his effectiveness. Orr as a security guard provides protection against that while riding shotgun. Allowing Kadri the freedom to be creative and focus on the game, while developing rather than the opponents attention against him.

3) Frattin who is Kadri's usual line-mate was/is injured and Orr is simply a temporary fill-in and will replaced on that line when Matty returns.
Number 1 is the only reason he's on the line.

Orr gives Kadri less space since defenders just forget about Orr and increase their focus on Kadri.

Additionally, given the injury to Frattin, Brown would be a better option than Orr since he can actually keep up with the play.

It is a reward for Orr playing well on the 4th line - but it's not working. Kadri's line would always be buzzing and now they have trouble sustaining pressure. Kadri is still producing but in spite of Orr not because of him.

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02-28-2013, 12:53 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
Carlyle is stubbornly, and quietly going about coaching the Leafs to the point he is deserving of coach of the year consideration.

"Sense of entitlement" of veterans, no longer takes precedence, as rewarding players regardless of age, contract and experience instead based on merit, is propelling the organization forward on the ice.

Players like Liles and Komisarek and likely being shopped and hopefully as the trade deadline approaches new homes can be found for them if everything works out. They will only be utilized in a need to situation, when Carlyle deems the tightened schedule, or the opponent, or injuries dictate it.

Besides Gardiner's inevitable return from the AHL is more likely preferable scenario that Nonis and Carlyle would prefer over utilizing pressbox players, which are deemed expendable.
I like to think Likes and Komi could be useful veterans to teams looking to make a run, could bring in some solid picks for us.

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