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Old
02-28-2013, 01:54 PM
  #101
spot
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Some of these offers are just crazy:
Yak and 2nd for Couturier and PHI 1st
Yak is going to be a lot better player than Cout and the switch in picks does not justifiy the switch.
Couturier is playing on the 3rd lilne. You guys way over value him. I would say Couturier is worth Petry and prospect or pick.
I would say something around Petry, Belanger(replaces Cout on the 3rd line) and a decent prospect. That is all that he is worth. He is stuck behind Giroux and Schenn.
Run....run away fast!!
I think you are under estimating couturier.
Yakupov is "stuck behind" Eberle and Hemsky so does that mean
He is only worth Read and a pick?

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02-28-2013, 02:00 PM
  #102
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Can people please stop saying this? There's a difference between not wanting to trade Couturier + B. Schenn ++ for Weber and refusing to trade Couturier or B. Schenn for Weber. If Holmgren did the latter he should be fired.
if you have a contradiction to this state it, I remember reading during that week that Nsh wanted both and we said neither would be in a package for him.

In other news, we have 1 glaring need that we cannot solve with UFA, young first pair PMD. When someone wants to trade that, we can listen. We can't afford
to trade what little assets we have for anything else.

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02-28-2013, 02:03 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Some of these offers are just crazy:
Yak and 2nd for Couturier and PHI 1st
Yak is going to be a lot better player than Cout and the switch in picks does not justifiy the switch.
Couturier is playing on the 3rd lilne. You guys way over value him. I would say Couturier is worth Petry and prospect or pick.
I would say something around Petry, Belanger(replaces Cout on the 3rd line) and a decent prospect. That is all that he is worth. He is stuck behind Giroux and Schenn.
You know, honestly, I don't see how you could even come close to making that claim...

Offensive? Sure. Overall? I'm not so sure. Nobody is.

And when I say that down the road they're likely not to be that far off in value, people call me a homer or say that I'm overrating my team's player when in reality, it's other people being homers.

How many players become 50 goal scorers? How many players these days hit 90 points?

If you listened to everyone's account of Couturier's draft class, then Couturier is the odd man out because literally every other forward in his class is going to be dropping 90 points consistently.

I think it's time HFBoards tapered itself somewhat.

Couturier is likely going to be a 60-75 point consistent Selke Caliber forward. Yakupov is likely going to be a 70-85 point winger with potential for more in career years.

How much of a difference in actual value to a team is there? Who helps their team more?

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02-28-2013, 02:05 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by roboninja View Post
This is very true.

How about Eberle+Petry for Couturier+Grossman? I would think that has to be considered close to fair value.
As an Oiler fan the last few years I have spent a lot of time following top prospects because to be honest what we have to watch on the ice is not always such a pleasant sight. Couturier is a guy I have followed a lot and I think that the Flyers won big in drafting him with that pick. I also think that what Couturier was able to do defensively last year as a rookie was significant. But at this point I would say that he is not really worth Eberle.

Eberle has scored 58 goals in 165 NHL games. If you ask any Oiler fan right now they would say he is in a significant slump yet he has 6 goals in 18 games, a pace that would see him score 27 in a full year. This is significant because goal scorers are one of the most expensive assets out there.

Not that this really means everything but it is worth noting that several Canadian media outlets ran features on who would be on Team Canada in Sochi. Eberle was pretty much on every one of these lists. And not just from the media hacks but also from some pretty reputable people. Of course he may not make the team or even be invited to camp but he is on the radar of the NHL community as one of the top up and comers.

While Couturier has significant upside until he actually realises his offensive potential his value on the open market won't be as high as it might be to the Flyers. And I know he has not been placed in such a role but it is true that one of the reasons he dropped in the draft was the perception that he may not have the offensive upside that his junior numbers suggested.

So while it is certainly possible that in a couple of years from now that Couturier has reached or past Eberle, at this point I think Eberle still holds a fair bit more value. For that reason, and because I doubt that the Oilers would trade Petry for Grossman I would say that while it is far from an insult, I doubt the Oilers would see this as a fair deal from their perspective.

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02-28-2013, 02:06 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by rockinghockey View Post
Some of these offers are just crazy:
Yak and 2nd for Couturier and PHI 1st
Yak is going to be a lot better player than Cout and the switch in picks does not justifiy the switch.
Couturier is playing on the 3rd lilne. You guys way over value him. I would say Couturier is worth Petry and prospect or pick.
I would say something around Petry, Belanger(replaces Cout on the 3rd line) and a decent prospect. That is all that he is worth. He is stuck behind Giroux and Schenn.
He's not playing 3rd line bc he sucks. He's playing that bc that is the role we have him playing. When he played during the lockout in the AHL he was second on the team in points...because he had an elevated role.

Most of us feel he has 70 pt ability with outstanding 2 way play.

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02-28-2013, 02:07 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
While Couturier has significant upside until he actually realises his offensive potential his value on the open market won't be as high as it might be to the Flyers. And I know he has not been placed in such a role but it is true that one of the reasons he dropped in the draft was the perception that he may not have the offensive upside that his junior numbers suggested.
As I said with Schenn and vanRiemsdyk before him and Giroux before him, watch and see. Couturier certainly shows flashes, and as always, where there's smoke there's fire. Couturier was not the top PPG in his draft class for no reason.

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02-28-2013, 02:12 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
As I said with Schenn and vanRiemsdyk before him and Giroux before him, watch and see. Couturier certainly shows flashes, and as always, where there's smoke there's fire. Couturier was not the top PPG in his draft class for no reason.
I am not claiming that he won't do it. Just that because he has not yet done so his value is not equal to Eberle's. As you can see from my previous post I followed hima lot and I am definitely a fan.

For what it is worth I don't think Philadelphia would jump on this deal either. Teams value players differently and it is clear that Couturier holds a lot oif value for the Flyers.


Last edited by Fourier: 02-28-2013 at 02:23 PM.
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Old
02-28-2013, 02:15 PM
  #108
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As an Oilers fan i am not too sure why the Oilers would be interested in scouting Philly at the PHI WSH game. Our issues are mostly on defense and maybe another Centre in a depth role, even though Horc is coming back. I also do not see Philly interested in our forwards. Perhaps we were scouting WASH?

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02-28-2013, 02:15 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I am not claiming that he won't do it. Just that because he has not yet done so his value is not equal to Eberle's. As you can see from my previous post I followed hima lot and I am definitely a fan.
Oh yeah he's definitely not at Eberle's value yet.

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02-28-2013, 02:36 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
Flyers get hosed, Philly cheesesteaks >>> Whitney AINEC
True , Maybe we can split it . Maybe you guys over order on stick tape . come on you know you want Whitney . Who else is going to bring water to the real hockey players at practise

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02-28-2013, 02:53 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
You know, honestly, I don't see how you could even come close to making that claim...

Offensive? Sure. Overall? I'm not so sure. Nobody is.

And when I say that down the road they're likely not to be that far off in value, people call me a homer or say that I'm overrating my team's player when in reality, it's other people being homers.

How many players become 50 goal scorers? How many players these days hit 90 points?

If you listened to everyone's account of Couturier's draft class, then Couturier is the odd man out because literally every other forward in his class is going to be dropping 90 points consistently.

I think it's time HFBoards tapered itself somewhat.

Couturier is likely going to be a 60-75 point consistent Selke Caliber forward. Yakupov is likely going to be a 70-85 point winger with potential for more in career years.

How much of a difference in actual value to a team is there? Who helps their team more?
To say Couturier is going to be a 60-75 point guy is being a homer. I'm here to bash anyone but i've watched all but 3 Flyers games this year and i just don't see him ever reaching that. Maybe 40-50 and great in his own end. Still very young and has alot of room to get better but I just don't see him reaching 60-75pts

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02-28-2013, 02:59 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by oilinblood View Post
As an Oilers fan i am not too sure why the Oilers would be interested in scouting Philly at the PHI WSH game. Our issues are mostly on defense and maybe another Centre in a depth role, even though Horc is coming back. I also do not see Philly interested in our forwards. Perhaps we were scouting WASH?
The Oilers biggest concerns is the lack of physical size in their top 6 and at C. The defense is coming around, not as fast as some people would of hope, but it is not as bad as some people think. The Oilers also have some grade A prospects with top pairing potential that could improve the Oilers D next season.

Out to lunch to think that the Oilers biggest problem is with their D.

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Old
02-28-2013, 03:00 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by dannyj10 View Post
To say Couturier is going to be a 60-75 point guy is being a homer. I'm here to bash anyone but i've watched all but 3 Flyers games this year and i just don't see him ever reaching that. Maybe 40-50 and great in his own end. Still very young and has alot of room to get better but I just don't see him reaching 60-75pts
I've watched every Flyers games for the past two years, and you're wrong. Sorry. You'll see in a couple years.

I will say that he's not been particularly fantastic this year. He was better last season, but he's young and, as sophomores so often do...

Really though, I'm not worried. Every time I see someone attacking Couturier's offense, I just think Schenn, JVR, and Giroux...all these people who swore they watched every game and really just had no idea what they were talking about.

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02-28-2013, 03:04 PM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dannyj10 View Post
To say Couturier is going to be a 60-75 point guy is being a homer. I'm here to bash anyone but i've watched all but 3 Flyers games this year and i just don't see him ever reaching that. Maybe 40-50 and great in his own end. Still very young and has alot of room to get better but I just don't see him reaching 60-75pts
He had a rough start to the season (who on the Flyers didn't?) but it looks like things are getting better for him. With the addition of Gagne, he has a decent winger for a change. I'd love to see Couturier center Gagne and Read when everyone is healthy.

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02-28-2013, 03:04 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by dannyj10 View Post
To say Couturier is going to be a 60-75 point guy is being a homer. I'm here to bash anyone but i've watched all but 3 Flyers games this year and i just don't see him ever reaching that. Maybe 40-50 and great in his own end. Still very young and has alot of room to get better but I just don't see him reaching 60-75pts
Couturier was as prolific a scorer as anyone from his draft class. He's not only talented, but he's big and will continue to fill out through his early twenties. He's got much more potential than just 40-50 points a season.

And I highly doubt you've watched 19 of 22 games that the Flyers have played this year. There would be a lot of nights you would be skipping Pens games to pull off that feat, something I'm sure you're not inclined to do.

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02-28-2013, 03:08 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by dannyj10 View Post
To say Couturier is going to be a 60-75 point guy is being a homer. I'm here to bash anyone but i've watched all but 3 Flyers games this year and i just don't see him ever reaching that. Maybe 40-50 and great in his own end. Still very young and has alot of room to get better but I just don't see him reaching 60-75pts
He'll be a 25G 35A guy with solid 2 way play. I think he ends up being a player similar to Patrice Bergeron.

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02-28-2013, 03:28 PM
  #117
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That was supposed to say not bash. I live in nj right outside philly so i can't watch every Pens game. So yes i've seen all but 3. I see him being just like Staal. People saying 60-70 pts but really 50.

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02-28-2013, 03:35 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by dannyj10 View Post
That was supposed to say not bash. I live in nj right outside philly so i can't watch every Pens game. So yes i've seen all but 3. I see him being just like Staal. People saying 60-70 pts but really 50.
In juniors Couturier was a stronger offensive player than Jordan Staal.

Couturier is also not as physical as Jordan. His playstyle is far closer to his older brother Eric.

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02-28-2013, 03:40 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by dannyj10 View Post
That was supposed to say not bash. I live in nj right outside philly so i can't watch every Pens game. So yes i've seen all but 3. I see him being just like Staal. People saying 60-70 pts but really 50.
I think Jordan Staal is a great comparision. However, I don't really consider Staal to be a 50pt player. The reason Staal consistently put up 50pts a season isn't because he couldn't put up 60+, it's because the Pens used him the same way Philly is using currently using Couturier. Now that Staal has been giving more offensive responsibilities and 1st line PP time he has 15pts in 18 games (68 point pace).

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02-28-2013, 03:42 PM
  #120
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I think Jordan Staal is a great comparision. However, I don't really consider Staal to be a 50pt player. The reason Staal consistently put up 50pts a season isn't because he couldn't put up 60+, it's because the Pens used him the same way Philly is using currently using Couturier. Now that Staal has been giving more offensive responsibilities and 1st line PP time he has 15pts in 18 games (68 point pace).
Jordan Staal also had 50 points in 62 games last year. So, in his last 80 games he has 65 points. Not too shabby.

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02-28-2013, 03:47 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by dannyj10 View Post
That was supposed to say not bash. I live in nj right outside philly so i can't watch every Pens game. So yes i've seen all but 3. I see him being just like Staal. People saying 60-70 pts but really 50.
In an 82 game season, Staal is on pace for 68 pts this year. Remains to see where he actually ends up.

Opportunity has alot to do with it.

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02-28-2013, 04:15 PM
  #122
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Kind of funny that the Flyers are going to end up with the same situation with there 3 big centers. You can't keep Couts on the 3rd line his whole career just like Jordan. Who do Flyers fans value more? Schenn or Couts?

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02-28-2013, 04:15 PM
  #123
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I don't think Petry + 1st is the same value that Pittsburgh got for staal.

Penguins got :

Brandon Sutter. Better defensively than Staal
You're ******** me right? Brandon Sutter is better defensively than Jordan Staal?

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02-28-2013, 04:19 PM
  #124
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As for the trades being discussed, Couturier's value is his defensive ability. Most of us feel the offensive game will come around as he continues to get bigger and lately he's showing more confidence offensively. Frankly his ability to consistently go head to head with Malkin at even strength makes him much more valuable to the Flyers than he might be to other teams.

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02-28-2013, 04:20 PM
  #125
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Kind of funny that the Flyers are going to end up with the same situation with there 3 big centers. You can't keep Couts on the 3rd line his whole career just like Jordan. Who do Flyers fans value more? Schenn or Couts?
Couturier for me. I just prefer the superior defensive guy.

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