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Can KHL ever become profitable?Does the league even want to become profitable?

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Old
02-28-2013, 12:35 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
When does DEL clubs start their games? KHL´s games start at 19:00 or 19:30 local time during week, at 17:00 during weekends.
Friday (7 games) 19.30
Tuesday (1 game) 19.30
Sunday (7 games) between 14.00 and 16.30 but the top game at 17.45

But for sure KHL could schedule the games so that German teams could play Saturday / Sunday 19.30.

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02-28-2013, 01:27 PM
  #77
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First of all I never said anything about the KHL having bigger attendance, please read what I wrote. More specifically whats the difference in payroll between say Riga and Redhawks, they have about the same attendance numbers.
Skelleftea and Dinamo Riga has pretty much the same payroll despite these numbers:

Size of home arena: 6000 - 10000
Avg. attendance: ~4500 - ~7500 (taking more than last season as a sample size)
Population of the city team's based in: 30 000 - 700 000

Comparing for example Bern and Dinamo Riga situation would be reversed. Bern is pretty much the same size as Riga, has bigger arena, twice the attendance numbers with more expensive ticket prices and still pretty much the same payroll.

So, the fact is, attendance numbers are pretty much irrelevant to the size of club's budget in European hockey.

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02-28-2013, 01:29 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post

So, the fact is, attendance numbers are pretty much irrelevant to the size of club's budget in European hockey.
Nope. Only in cases where teams make a lot of money through tv contracts and sponsors this is irrelevant. For many of the smaller teams in Germany the ticket money pays them 80% of their budget.

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02-28-2013, 01:45 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
Nope. Only in cases where teams make a lot of money through tv contracts and sponsors this is irrelevant. For many of the smaller teams in Germany the ticket money pays them 80% of their budget.
Your logic is superbly flawed. You are taking Germany as an example where indeed it is important BUT in fact Germany is somewhat of the exception to the rule. In most of other European leagues it has almost no importance. Not to mention that my point was about comparing one league to another.

I don't know why is it so popular on these boards to take one sentence out of the context and start a whole new discussion about something what was never said in the first place.

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02-28-2013, 01:56 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
Your logic is superbly flawed. You are taking Germany as an example where indeed it is important BUT in fact Germany is somewhat of the exception to the rule. In most of other European leagues it has almost no importance. Not to mention that my point was about comparing one league to another.

I don't know why is it so popular on these boards to take one sentence out of the context and start a whole new discussion about something what was never said in the first place.
It is not only in Germany. Also in Austria, Switzerland, Poland, France, Italy etc are countries where ticket money is a big deal.

Off course often sponsors bring most money so that it isn't important for a team if they have 2,000 average of 5,000 but very often it is important.

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02-28-2013, 02:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
It is not only in Germany. Also in Austria, Switzerland, Poland, France, Italy etc are countries where ticket money is a big deal.
Huh? Salzburg has the biggest payroll in the league while their attendance is 1/3 Medvescak's and 1/2 Vienna's. Same with Switzerland, they are not supporting your point at all. And Poland, France, Italy? Really? I would have trouble to name more than 3 players playing in those leagues.

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02-28-2013, 02:14 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
Nope. Only in cases where teams make a lot of money through tv contracts and sponsors this is irrelevant. For many of the smaller teams in Germany the ticket money pays them 80% of their budget.
Though in KHL attendance numbers would certainly help but the budgets are much higher. Dinamo spends about 12 million euros a season and it's one of the smallest budgets. I take that if the average tickets were euro 30 or bit higher and we owned our own arena, we could maybe get back half of that in tickets, the rest from a good TV deal, other income from arena (concerts, shows, etc.), merchandise, parking next to arena... maybe few small local sponsors still, but not ones that would really harm the budget.

With KHL you also have to think not only about payroll but travel costs etc. Sure hotels are probably more expensive in Switzerland but then again you can go everywhere by bus there and teams have a ton of sponsor logos...

Are there realy hockey clubs in Europe that work as the North American model?? I still believe most depend heavily on sponsors... Maybe not in Sweden though, as I've heard they have a good TV deal and in general people there can spend money.

But where KHL can really get more money for clubs is in TV deals IMHO. Sponsorship... I don't know how it works, but do clubs really receive some money fom league's big sponsors? If they are then Dinamo Riga's heads are blatantly lying all the time saying that all the money there is, is Itera Latvija (basically Gazprom) about 70% and 30% local sponsors, tickets etc... But the market is big and if Swedish Elitserien TV deal can give 2.8 million euros for each of the club then surely just if we look at the potential more than 200 million audience in KHL area (and even beyond the KHL countries), there should be a lot of opportunities to sell the product... Unfortunately not all teams have HD or even adequate picture to sell to someone.


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02-28-2013, 02:31 PM
  #83
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But nobody really cares about this because in Russia this model IS long term sustainable. At least oil will still be used in 30 years I believe, gas too and Russian metallurgy should still be in good shape. And the oligarchs too might live for next 30 years and those that will come in their place, if the political system does not change by 180 degrees, will continue to pay for their toys.

They are some teams that are barely able to make ends meet in Russia (Avto, Kuznya), also some teams that might find it hard in future (Slovan) or might be in trouble if something changes in politics of the league or club's countries (Dinamo, Lev), but these are only few. Gazprom sponsors SKA and Medvedev will do so till the grave, charity fund or sth sponsors Ufa and while the budget might decrease or increase, it will continue to do so, if Putin is in power CSKA will stay out of trouble, Dynamo now is also secure, Tatarstan will pay for AK Bars, Traktor's budget might decrease but they will pay for it, Khabarovsk- no doubt etc. If there is no radical change in Russia's politics, I don't see KHL collapse in next 30 years time... And even if there's a shift in politics the fact that tickets are relativey inexpensive and sports teams are financed by the region or local company is so deeply rooted in the culture that you can't imagine it to be other way around. I mean not to fund the local sports team for the factory or government there (also in Latvia) means that you do not care about the community. Others would shame you for that, and that's why it's like a competition -everybody wants to show how much he gives to the community so team budgets grow and ''owners'' want to win cups, it doesn't even matter how the cup is called but it brings pride to the community and the big bosses can shove it into their colleagues' and comptitors' eyes.

Therefore there's no real incentive... If Riga's or Avto budgets could possibly be green in 30 years' time, but if we look at SKA or CSKA... AK Bars... Traktor... Magnitka


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02-28-2013, 03:02 PM
  #84
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Maybe not in Sweden though, as I've heard they have a good TV deal and in general people there can spend money.
they can, but dont. Attendance is awful.

Quote:
But where KHL can really get more money for clubs is in TV deals IMHO. Sponsorship... I don't know how it works, but do clubs really receive some money fom league's big sponsors?
Clubs have nothing from tv deals and league´s sponsors. Club wants this money to be shared, IMO they will....not all

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02-28-2013, 03:24 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by SoundAndFury View Post
Huh? Salzburg has the biggest payroll in the league while their attendance is 1/3 Medvescak's and 1/2 Vienna's. Same with Switzerland, they are not supporting your point at all. And Poland, France, Italy? Really? I would have trouble to name more than 3 players playing in those leagues.
Are you kidding? I just wrote ticket money is important for teams without big sponsors and you name RED BULL salzburg. lol

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02-28-2013, 03:25 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post
Though in KHL attendance numbers would certainly help but the budgets are much higher. Dinamo spends about 12 million euros a season and it's one of the smallest budgets. I take that if the average tickets were euro 30 or bit higher and we owned our own arena, we could maybe get back half of that in tickets, the rest from a good TV deal, other income from arena (concerts, shows, etc.), merchandise, parking next to arena... maybe few small local sponsors still, but not ones that would really harm the budget.
That was exactly my point. In KHL you have big sponsors so tickets are not relevant factor. In other countries they are... in Germany there are even teams without main sponsors at times.

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02-28-2013, 03:56 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
they can, but dont. Attendance is awful.
Once again, what on earth are you talking about? How is 77% average attendance "awful"? Do you know how big are these Sweden's towns teams are located in? Here are some numbers for you:

Skelleftea - 33k, Lulea - 47k, Vaxjo - 61k, Timra - 10k, Angelholm - 23k, Örnsköldsvik - 29k, Karlstad - 62k.

This means that 1/5 - 1/10 of town's population are at the every single game and you call that not spending money and awful attendance? If that would be a case in the KHL town as small as Nizhnekamsk would have to play in the 20k+ arena. And I didn't even mention Gavle, Linkoping or Jonkoping because they are ~100k and that must be considered as a pretty big city by Swedish standarts.

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Are you kidding? I just wrote ticket money is important for teams without big sponsors and you name RED BULL salzburg. lol
Are you suffering from a short-term memory loss or is Salzburg not a part of Austria?

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Originally Posted by Vicente View Post
It is not only in Germany. Also in Austria, Switzerland, Poland, France, Italy etc are countries where ticket money is a big deal.


Last edited by stv11: 03-01-2013 at 04:33 AM. Reason: removed insult
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02-28-2013, 04:14 PM
  #88
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How is 77% average attendance "awful"?
yes, it is. Sweden is best euro hockey country, I expect higher numbers.

Average attendance in Elitserien has decreased SIGNIFICANTLY this season as only one top euro league.

6385 (11/12) - cca 5 800 (12/13)

This said, yes, Elitserien has awful attendance compared to its potential as hockey power.

How many new arenas above 10 000 is under construction/planning in Elitserien? I can name at least 10 arenas in KHL (including O2 in Prague as potential venue). This topic is about potential profit, so I have to ask about plans for building bigger arenas in Sweden.. bigger arenas=more fans=more money

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02-28-2013, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
This said, yes, Elitserien has awful attendance compared to its potential as hockey power.

How many new arenas above 10 000 is under construction/planning in Elitserien? I can name at least 10 arenas in KHL (including O2 in Prague as potential venue). This topic is about potential profit, so I have to ask about plans for building bigger arenas in Sweden.. bigger arenas=more fans=more money
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

This sentence ("they can, but dont. Attendance is awful.") was one of the most stupid things I've ever read on these boards (although I have to thank my common sense to avoid trade proposal boards for that) and you're still arguing about it?

Do you understand there are 20-25% of town's population in every game in Skelleftea or Ornskoldsvik? How can you expect higher numbers? That's ridiculously great attendance with no way to improve it. Do you understand that the average town of the KHL team is 10 times bigger than the average town in Elitserien?Do you understand there are 3, yes 3 cities with population above 100k in Elitserien? Yes there are no ****in possibilities for new fans and bigger arenas because there are no ****in people there.


Oh yeah, and about that attendance dropping thing. Have you ever heard of this thing called playoffs? Plus, one of the most popular teamsin the country (Djurgardens) in the biggest country's market (Stokholm) was relegated while Rogle based in Angelholm with population of 23k took their place. How can attendance not drop? But that doesn't mean anything SIGNIFICANT, it would contradict logics if it would be otherwise.


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02-28-2013, 05:12 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Latgale_fan View Post

Are there realy hockey clubs in Europe that work as the North American model?? I still believe most depend heavily on sponsors... Maybe not in Sweden though, as I've heard they have a good TV deal and in general people there can spend money.
Example from Finland, Jokerit budget for this season (at the start of the season) was income of 8 156 000 euros which was comprised of 3 275 000 in ticket sales, 4 046 000 in sponsorship plus 865 000 of "other income". Expenses were the same as income, of which 3M was player salaries. Those figures were of course before the NHL lock-out. I don't recall what the tv deal was worth but each club got somewhere between 200-300K IIRc.

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02-28-2013, 06:00 PM
  #91
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Are you suffering from a short-term memory loss or is Salzburg not a part of Austria?
Ehm... I wrote that ticket money is important for teams in Germany and Austria but not for teams with big sponsors. Red Bull is one of the biggest sponsors in sports world wide. You should know that. Salzburg is such a big exception for Austria...

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02-28-2013, 06:03 PM
  #92
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You neither. That's why you have my word, I will never ever discuss with you again on these boards. And I just want to say, for the record, it has nothing to do with your views or beliefs but has everything to do with your lack of common sense, intellect and actual ability to understand the things you are talking about.
Come on guys. Get over it. Elitserien could do better, yes, but only if teams like DIF and Malmö would play in it currently.

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03-01-2013, 02:47 AM
  #93
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SoundandFury may not have presented his argument in the friendliest tone, but he is absolutely correct. The idea that Swedish attendance isn't good? It's not even that far below KHL attendance. So is KHL attendance attrocious?

The SEL currently misses some big market teams. It's attendance totals till list within the European elite.

We all know Vorky is a KHL/Russian centric poster who often can't use common sense and logic and who often suffers bout of romanticism and dreams when it comes to the KHL, it's capabilities and some of the expasion plans/it's economics, but even i assumed he wasn't this far out of reality.


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03-01-2013, 03:49 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
SoundandFury may not have presented his argument in the friendliest tone, but he is absolutely correct. The idea that Swedish attendance isn't good? It's not even that far below KHL attendance. So is KHL attendance attrocious?

The SEL currently misses some big market teams. It's attendance totals till list within the European elite.

We all know Vorky is a KHL/Russian centric poster who often can't use common sense and logic and who often suffers bout of romanticism and dreams when it comes to the KHL, it's capabilities and some of the expasion plans/it's economics, but even i assumed he wasn't this far out of reality.
try to discuss on topic, not insult posters

Quote:
Maybe not in Sweden though, as I've heard they have a good TV deal and in general people there can spend money.
I replied "they can, but dont. Attendance is awful."

Yes, attendance this season is awful compared to last one. I dont care which team was promoted/relegated. In general, attendance decreased. That is important for sponsors, tv deals etc.

12/13 RS
KHL
- 11 teams had attendance above 90% of arena´s capacity (42% of clubs)


SEL
- 2 teams had attendance above 90% of arena´s capacity (17%of clubs)

Can you see a difference? Swedes dont care about hockey? Arenas are too big compared to inhabitants of city?

I replied to this in general people there can spend money. and I see it like something that Swedes can spend money by visiting games (tickets, etc). I would agree, Sweden is nice and "healthy" country/society. Club needs money, can not incerease prizde of tickets (look at attendance at WC last year). So only solution is to build new arena above 10 000. More fans=more money. I know, there are small cities, that is not my problem but Elitserien´s. One would say, there is not potential for grow. We have growing potential in KHL, majority of cities are big.. so we can hope for more income in future. In Elitserien it is impossible as you wrote. Or there is any chance to build new big arenas? All my Qs are legitimate, just some posters dont get it.

You know, I can not understand one thing. KHL has been trying do develop itself, to build new modern and big arenas, to make better tv coverage, to sell tv rights to as many coutries as possible, promote itself in new markets. Elitserien was best league in Europe before KHL era, IMO. Unfortunatelly we had NO info in slovak/czech media, we had no games in tv from SEL. Why? Btw, we still dont have it. That is the biggest/best euro league?

European Trophy - which is project of Swedes - very limited info (de facto only results) in slovak/czech media. We have in television only games of Slovan and czech clubs, no other games (we can watch KHL games of other teams than Slovan/Lev btw). Fans and media dont care. You to know, we have 3-5 articles per day about KHL/Slovan in ALL media, even Satan was a host in most influential POLITICAL discussion on tv (I dont like it, but it is fact). That time it was not about politics of course.

This thread is about profit, we discuss if it is possible to have it in Europe, particular in KHL. You dont have profit if you dont sell tv right to abroad, if media dont care, if attendance is decreasing, if no big arena are projected/built. I asked about SEL, it is legitimate Q in this thread. If you dont like it, dont visit this thread called Can KHL ever become profitable?Does the league even want to become profitable?


Last edited by stv11: 03-01-2013 at 04:28 AM. Reason: Removed insult in quoted post
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03-01-2013, 04:02 AM
  #95
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GM of Slovan said yesterday that league considers increasing lowest budget for player´s salaries. Today it should be cca 6 mil. euro, should increase to cca 9 mil euro in future. Maximum for salaries, IIRC, is cca 25 mil euro this season (1,1 bilion rubles).

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03-02-2013, 09:57 AM
  #96
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Once again, what on earth are you talking about? How is 77% average attendance "awful"? Do you know how big are these Sweden's towns teams are located in? Here are some numbers for you:

Skelleftea - 33k, Lulea - 47k, Vaxjo - 61k, Timra - 10k, Angelholm - 23k, Örnsköldsvik - 29k, Karlstad - 62k.

This means that 1/5 - 1/10 of town's population are at the every single game and you call that not spending money and awful attendance?
Not that it takes away from your point but to be fair the population of the catchment area for those clubs would be larger than just the the city proper... But ya... Saying the attendance in Sweden for club/league hockey is awful is laughable. IMHO attendance for hockey in Sweden is nothing short of impressive.

Attendance in Sweden's top tier is going to be down this year, but the 2nd tier is going to be up significantly so at the end of the day total regular season attendance in the top 2 professional leagues is going to come in at around 3 million people. I have no idea how someone can say that a country with a population of 9.5 million drawing 3 million people to professional leage games (not even including league playoffs, qualification, etc yet) has awful attedance or isn't spending money on hockey.

Given the populations of Sweden, along with Switzerland, Czech Rep and Finland I would say all draw pretty impressive attendances for hockey.

At the risk of going totally off topic... I have no doubt that the KHL is great for Russian hockey (and Russian hockey doing well is good, probably even vital, for hockey in general) but I have no idea where the idea that the KHL has to 'save' European hockey comes from. I know that attendance isn't the be all and end all but it is still a pretty good indicatator of health and interest and if you compare European club and league attendance today to figures from 5, 10, 15 years ago European hockey is doing pretty well and generally trending in the right direction.

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03-02-2013, 10:34 AM
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I have no idea where the idea that the KHL has to 'save' European hockey comes from.
Best european players, especially Swedes, go to NHL/CHL for funny money. Meanwhile euro clubs has gone bankrupt or have had tought times to find money to run kids/junior teams.. so, there is a huge problem of euro hockey and its healthy.

KHL is only one league which is against current model of transfer deal IIHF-KHL... so that is a reason for "saving". Yes, KHL will not "save" euro hockey, national federations have to want it.. which they dont.

Dont give us an example of Sweden... look at AHL and number of Swedes (cca 30). Can you imagine Elitserien with so many great players? League would improve immidiatelly. Finns the same. Transfer politics of swedish/finnish clubs is ANTI-european... and ANTI-swedish/finnish from long term point of view. Do you want example? Look at "healthy" of czech hockey and its clubs now and in 90ers.

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03-02-2013, 10:51 AM
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You won't get an arguement from me that the NHL's SOP when it comes to European leagues/clubs probably does European hockey no favours but I think that is probably an entirely different topic.

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03-02-2013, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by CoolForumNamePending View Post
At the risk of going totally off topic... I have no doubt that the KHL is great for Russian hockey (and Russian hockey doing well is good, probably even vital, for hockey in general) but I have no idea where the idea that the KHL has to 'save' European hockey comes from. I know that attendance isn't the be all and end all but it is still a pretty good indicatator of health and interest and if you compare European club and league attendance today to figures from 5, 10, 15 years ago European hockey is doing pretty well and generally trending in the right direction.
That's what I've been saying as well. Seems posters from an unnamed country have somewhat bloated egos about their league and it's importance.

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03-02-2013, 11:48 AM
  #100
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You won't get an arguement from me that the NHL's SOP when it comes to European leagues/clubs probably does European hockey no favours but I think that is probably an entirely different topic.
The difference is that all the NHL drafted players will bring their teams a guaranteed figure, where as the same can't be said about the players going to KHL. Basically the players previously below the radar in a breakthrough/career season (like Teemu Ramstedt) can expect to fetch their teams any kind of decent transfer money, the players that know they can expect to play abroad in the future will have included a KHL clause in their contracts that guarantees them either a free or a very cheap exit (most SM-Liiga players have this clause already).

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