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When did Datsyuk get demoted to the 4th line?

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Old
02-28-2013, 03:02 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
We are only 6 points away of a TOP3 pick...
That's not that close cnsidering we've played around 20 games.

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02-28-2013, 03:05 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by The Nose View Post
That's not that close cnsidering we've played around 20 games.
Our situation is inflated by easier games at home. Road games are really a concern for us.

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02-28-2013, 03:09 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
At 2001-02 playoffs:

Shanahan - Fedorov - Yzerman
Devereaux - Datsyuk - Hull
Maltby - Draper - McCarty
Robitaille - Larionov - Holmström
(Williams)

Lidström - Olausson
Fischer - Chelios
Duchesne - Dandenault
Why not just use the ESTOI?

LinePOSPlayerESTOI/GP
1CFedorov15:52
1LWYzerman14:38
1RWShanahan13:56
2CDraper13:58
2LWMaltby13:26
2RWMcCarty13:15
3RWHull12:23
3LWDevereaux10:49
3CDatsyuk10:11
4CLarionov10:55
4LWRobitaille10:15
4RWHolmstrom8:37
XFWilliams6:03
LinePOSPlayerESTOI/GP
1DLidstrom20:24
1DOlausson18:13
2DChelios18:59
2DFischer17:54
3DDandenault12:13
3DDuchesne11:35
XDKrupp17:58
XDSlegr17:11

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Old
02-28-2013, 03:10 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by The Fading Captain View Post
Here are Abdelkaders' stats going back to March 21 last year.

34 Games
0 Goals
1 Assist
-14


There is no justification for this.

This is nearly as absurd as Lashoff on the first pairing.

I figure coach Babcock has cost this team at least four points. At least.
Wow, wow, wow.
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Butt plugs.

There is no scenario where either of those players should end up being centered by Datsyuk.

Babcock is either a genius or is trying to get fired. There are just so many other potential forward combinations where you could at least argue it makes some sense.
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What if they are tanking?
Maybe

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02-28-2013, 03:16 PM
  #55
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I mean, holy **** people. Are you really expecting us to lead the league like always after not replacing the best defenseman in the league and losing half your lineup to injuries?

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02-28-2013, 03:19 PM
  #56
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Is it that difficult to put Franzen on Datsyuk's wing? Zetterberg gets Brunner and they have great chemistry. They other guy on Z's wing doesn't need to be a great player (or someone playing "great" in Filppula's defense). Datsyuk and Franzen have been on the same line when healthy for a long time up until now. Franzen's numbers have been good this year on Datsyuk's wing yet again. It just doesn't make much sense.

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02-28-2013, 03:38 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by SoupGuru View Post
I mean, holy **** people. Are you really expecting us to lead the league like always after not replacing the best defenseman in the league and losing half your lineup to injuries?
Please just leave. Were trying to discuss hockey here.

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02-28-2013, 03:40 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by SoupGuru View Post
I mean, holy **** people. Are you really expecting us to lead the league like always after not replacing the best defenseman in the league and losing half your lineup to injuries?
What does losing Lidstrom have to do with pairing Datsyuk with awful forwards?

Unleash The Goose.

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02-28-2013, 03:56 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronwalled55 View Post
Is it that difficult to put Franzen on Datsyuk's wing? Zetterberg gets Brunner and they have great chemistry. They other guy on Z's wing doesn't need to be a great player (or someone playing "great" in Filppula's defense). Datsyuk and Franzen have been on the same line when healthy for a long time up until now. Franzen's numbers have been good this year on Datsyuk's wing yet again. It just doesn't make much sense.
and people lamented the soft suckiness of Franzen and how he didn't have any chemistry with Dats. I'm not against the move, I just think you're replacing one chorus of griping with another. Also, I think all that happens is that whoever's place Franzen takes on Datsyuk's line gets bumped to Z's line.

With the injuries we have, we need guys that can be trusted with 13+ ES minutes a night to fill out the top six. Emmerton isn't that guy. Neither are Miller, Eaves, Andersson, Tatar, or Tootoo (though I think Tootoo would be the most interesting choice). We have to roll with what we have right now, and our top6 is holding the line against the other team's top6.

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02-28-2013, 04:02 PM
  #60
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Heckuva lotta railing against Babcock and his line combos in this thread, yet very little acknowledgement of the injuries to Flip, Sammy, and Bert. No one expects Cleary and Abs to be Datsyuk's wings once we're healthy, right?

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02-28-2013, 04:03 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoupGuru View Post
I mean, holy **** people. Are you really expecting us to lead the league like always after not replacing the best defenseman in the league and losing half your lineup to injuries?
Stop crying.

Lidstrom wasn't the best defenseman in the league anymore.

And you know what, when people were *****ing in the offseason about Ken Holland's pisspoor job replacing Lidstrom and Stuart and getting a winger for Datsyuk ... people were telling us then that Holland did a fine job....

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02-28-2013, 04:04 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Heckuva lotta railing against Babcock and his line combos in this thread, yet very little acknowledgement of the injuries to Flip, Sammy, and Bert. No one expects Cleary and Abs to be Datsyuk's wings once we're healthy, right?
So?
Give ONE of Franzen or Brunner to Datsyuk

OR

Put Tatar on Datsyuk's line

Two VERY easy fixes that would give Datsyuk someone with SOME ability to play with

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02-28-2013, 04:08 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
and people lamented the soft suckiness of Franzen and how he didn't have any chemistry with Dats. I'm not against the move, I just think you're replacing one chorus of griping with another. Also, I think all that happens is that whoever's place Franzen takes on Datsyuk's line gets bumped to Z's line.

With the injuries we have, we need guys that can be trusted with 13+ ES minutes a night to fill out the top six. Emmerton isn't that guy. Neither are Miller, Eaves, Andersson, Tatar, or Tootoo (though I think Tootoo would be the most interesting choice). We have to roll with what we have right now, and our top6 is holding the line against the other team's top6.
Abs is that guy but Tootoo or Tatar isnt?

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02-28-2013, 04:14 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Heckuva lotta railing against Babcock and his line combos in this thread, yet very little acknowledgement of the injuries to Flip, Sammy, and Bert. No one expects Cleary and Abs to be Datsyuk's wings once we're healthy, right?
I think there's very little acknowledgement of the injuries to flip and bert because it is the first thing mentioned in this thread. Plus, this is about pairing players that are available and are currently playing.

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02-28-2013, 04:23 PM
  #65
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We've got two 2nd line and two 4th lines. No amount of rearranging can fix that. Put all your scoring on one line and it can get shut down and the other 3 lines will be eaten alive. Spread your scoring over all of your lines and you get what we have now. There is no solution other than getting healthy and getting some trades done. Moving your favorite player up to Datsyuk's line isn't the magical solution that will solve all our woes. Cleary and Gator on that line won't solve anything either, of course. That's because there are no solutions other than hard work and that will only get us to about average, it seems.

I mean, didn't we all know going into this season that it was going to be ugly?

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02-28-2013, 04:31 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
and people lamented the soft suckiness of Franzen and how he didn't have any chemistry with Dats. I'm not against the move, I just think you're replacing one chorus of griping with another. Also, I think all that happens is that whoever's place Franzen takes on Datsyuk's line gets bumped to Z's line.

With the injuries we have, we need guys that can be trusted with 13+ ES minutes a night to fill out the top six. Emmerton isn't that guy. Neither are Miller, Eaves, Andersson, Tatar, or Tootoo (though I think Tootoo would be the most interesting choice). We have to roll with what we have right now, and our top6 is holding the line against the other team's top6.
Honest question: what has Tatar done (or not done) to say that he cannot be trusted with 13+ min of even strength hockey?

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02-28-2013, 04:33 PM
  #67
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One kid comes in and plays very, very well in limited action and isn't rewarded with icetime.
One kid comes in and plays as poorly as expected and gets a three year contract

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02-28-2013, 04:34 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Honest question: what has Tatar done (or not done) to say that he cannot be trusted with 13+ min of even strength hockey?
I remember reading that Babcock said that Tatar wasn't strong enough on the puck and that he didn't protect it well enough, and that he needed to learn how to play without the puck as well.
He basically said that he's got talent and once he learns to do those things he'll be a good NHLer

Personally I think that his opinion of Tatar is dead wrong.

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02-28-2013, 04:42 PM
  #69
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I get the idea behind Abdelkader and Cleary with Datsyuk, but it's so painfully obvious that it's not working. I get the idea of having Cleary there with all of the injuries, but Abdelkader sucks, he registers a lot of hits but basically adds nothing else. He's not fast, he doesn't fight, he doesn't forecheck that well, he doesn't PK well. I had high hopes that he would eventually look like a poor man's Ryan Callahan but he's not even a poor man's Dan Cleary when Cleary could still skate.

I generally agree with Babcock's decisions, but this one is bizarre and it's even more painful since Samuelsson and Bertuzzi are still weeks away.

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02-28-2013, 04:52 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Dolph Lundgren View Post
I remember reading that Babcock said that Tatar wasn't strong enough on the puck and that he didn't protect it well enough, and that he needed to learn how to play without the puck as well.
He basically said that he's got talent and once he learns to do those things he'll be a good NHLer

Personally I think that his opinion of Tatar is dead wrong.
Yeah he says things like that, but nothing Tatar has done during actual games has shown any of this. The kid is quick with the puck, is patient and has vision with the puck, has been great in the offensive zone, and has shown nothing to suggest that he's a liability defensively on the ice.

Dan Cleary on the other hand loses more puck battles than anyone can count.

Babcock has limited options due to injury, but he still has options. He just seems like once he's set on an idea or player, it is what is it.

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02-28-2013, 05:26 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
and people lamented the soft suckiness of Franzen and how he didn't have any chemistry with Dats. I'm not against the move, I just think you're replacing one chorus of griping with another. Also, I think all that happens is that whoever's place Franzen takes on Datsyuk's line gets bumped to Z's line.

With the injuries we have, we need guys that can be trusted with 13+ ES minutes a night to fill out the top six. Emmerton isn't that guy. Neither are Miller, Eaves, Andersson, Tatar, or Tootoo (though I think Tootoo would be the most interesting choice). We have to roll with what we have right now, and our top6 is holding the line against the other team's top6.
I think that it's okay for our top 6 to shoot for exceeding a "holding the line" output, and to do that, you have to put guys with Datsyuk who can actually play hockey and have some sort of offensive IQ. And some ability wouldn't hurt either. Babs has options apart from Abby and Cleary, and Tatar should be first and foremost among those options. I definitely think that he could handle 2nd line mins and has earned that (not like he's having to bump perennial all stars out of a winger spot). I get wanting to have a 3rd line that's a threat to score, but hurting your 2nd line to pump your 3rd doesn't make sense.

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02-28-2013, 05:38 PM
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I think that it's okay for our top 6 to shoot for exceeding a "holding the line" output, and to do that, you have to put guys with Datsyuk who can actually play hockey and have some sort of offensive IQ. And some ability wouldn't hurt either. Babs has options apart from Abby and Cleary, and Tatar should be first and foremost among those options. I definitely think that he could handle 2nd line mins and has earned that (not like he's having to bump perennial all stars out of a winger spot). I get wanting to have a 3rd line that's a threat to score, but hurting your 2nd line to pump your 3rd doesn't make sense.
Especially when you're 2nd line contains your best player.

Just another example of Babcock using Datsyuk as a safeguard.

I'm convinced that many coaches would use Datsyuk differently.

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02-28-2013, 06:24 PM
  #73
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Abs is that guy but Tootoo or Tatar isnt?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brick Top
I think that it's okay for our top 6 to shoot for exceeding a "holding the line" output, and to do that, you have to put guys with Datsyuk who can actually play hockey and have some sort of offensive IQ. And some ability wouldn't hurt either. Babs has options apart from Abby and Cleary, and Tatar should be first and foremost among those options. I definitely think that he could handle 2nd line mins and has earned that (not like he's having to bump perennial all stars out of a winger spot). I get wanting to have a 3rd line that's a threat to score, but hurting your 2nd line to pump your 3rd doesn't make sense.
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Originally Posted by silkyjohnson50 View Post
Honest question: what has Tatar done (or not done) to say that he cannot be trusted with 13+ min of even strength hockey?
I really don't think Tatar is, at least not with either of Abs or Cleary on the other wing. The kid's been good, but he's also iffy with the 9-11 minutes he gets at ES now, and it's typically against the other team's lesser lines. If we were healthier, and/or at home where the matchups could be picked easier, I could see more of argument for it.

I think Tootoo could probably handle it. Partly because he plays a simpler game, but he's also handled more ice time with Nashville, and he's a vet. You can lean on him a bit. I'm not sure you'll get much more out of him than out of Gator, though.

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02-28-2013, 07:03 PM
  #74
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I really don't think Tatar is, at least not with either of Abs or Cleary on the other wing. The kid's been good, but he's also iffy with the 9-11 minutes he gets at ES now, and it's typically against the other team's lesser lines. If we were healthier, and/or at home where the matchups could be picked easier, I could see more of argument for it.

I think Tootoo could probably handle it. Partly because he plays a simpler game, but he's also handled more ice time with Nashville, and he's a vet. You can lean on him a bit. I'm not sure you'll get much more out of him than out of Gator, though.
What do you mean he's iffy?

Maybe I'm seeing the game different, but when I watch him play I see the 3rd best puckhandler on the team right now. He wants the puck, when he gets the puck he doesn't panic, and he seemingly has another gear in his skating when he has the puck. He's shown me nothing to suggest he's a defensive liability.

What I do know is that when Cleary and Abdelkader were in the bottom 6, the bottom 6 was terrible and had no even strength points for the longest time. Tatar and Andersson come in and suddenly the bottom 6 plays better. They're performing the bottom 6 role better than Cleary and Abdelkader. Why can't they (Tatar in particular who has shown the most offensive spark) be given an opportunity alongside Datsyuk?

If I've seen something to suggest Tatar wasn't ready I'd buy it. He's shown nothing to suggest this though from my perspective.

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02-28-2013, 07:06 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
I really don't think Tatar is, at least not with either of Abs or Cleary on the other wing. The kid's been good, but he's also iffy with the 9-11 minutes he gets at ES now, and it's typically against the other team's lesser lines. If we were healthier, and/or at home where the matchups could be picked easier, I could see more of argument for it.
I think Tats has been better than iffy in his ES mins so far. And I think now, when we are really banged up, is the perfect time to give him a shot with Datsyuk. Honestly, if Babs isn't confident enough in Tatar to move him up the lineup with all the guys out, it's never happening when we are completely healthy and he has all of his favorite options (Cleary/Bert/Sammy) to call on.

He's a better offensive player than either wing currently "playing" with Pavel (and it's not even close), and his D seems average at worst to me. Again, it's not like anybody's hoping he unseats a guy like Hossa on the wing- this is DFC and Justin "Hands of Stone (in the scoring sense, not fighting)" Abdelkader we're talking about. I know that it is against the grain of the organization to put much trust in young players, but this year and this team seems like the obvious time to give it a shot.

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