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02-28-2013, 06:23 AM
  #1
glenngineer
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The Poile/Trotz Relationship

Last week on the radio I caught the first half or so of an interview with Poile. They were asking the normal questions, blah blah blah and talked about building the team and the draft. Something stood out to me and it's bothered to me to some extent ever since. Most GM's, with the help of their assistant GM and scouts are responsible for drafting players. That has always been my understanding of the process. Poile stated that Trotz has input on who we should draft as well. How much input I don't know but he does have a voice in the room. My question is, does this effect the type of guys we go after at the end of the day? Does Trotz go after or want the good two way guys because he knows it fits his system but causes an imbalance on the roster, hence, a roster full of grinders and good two way forwards but no one with real exceptional offensive talent. Whatever they've been doing with defensemen and goalies work but up front, we seem to be lacking for whatever reason.

So the question becomes, do Poile, Fenton and the scouts need to make the choices and say here Barry, here's your team, deal with it or should Trotz have a voice on who he's going to get to coach? I think there are reasons guys are GM's/scouts and others are coaches. Maybe Poile is listening a little too much to what his coach wants as opposed to doing what he needs to do to build a more balanced team up and down the roster.

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02-28-2013, 08:24 AM
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PredsV82
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I think it would be kinda stupid to draft players without consulting the guy who will have to coach them.

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02-28-2013, 09:49 AM
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I know where you were going with this, but I don't think it's an issue at all. In fact, most hockey people would say that the whole longevity/stable staff situation in Nashville were it appears that everybody is on the same page and draft picks year in year out match the style of coaching/system is overall a positive thing.

However, in baseball, the sport that is closest to the NHL in drafting and developing players, have you ever heard a skipper make a comment much less have any input on draft picks? Different sports, similar player developmental situations, yet completely different approaches to who gets a say in the draft.

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02-28-2013, 09:56 AM
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glenngineer
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I'm not saying it's bad or good, just makes me wonder a little about the lack of development up front with our forwards. I think sometimes the talent evaluators need to do their job and the coach needs to do his. I'd rather the coach think and worry about the team, strategy, line combos, scouting up coming games, etc and trust what the scouts and GM's are doing. I don't know. I think it's good and bad all at the same time. That's just me though. I think a coach can want certain types of players to fit HIS system but his system may or may not work to the best of its ability and in doing so, you end up with a certain type of roster that is one dimensional without the possibility of change.

Which then spurs on this idea, if Trotz is such a big part of the draft/personnel decisions, is that why we all fear another coach coming in? This is his type of team player wise and it works for the most part. Maybe that's why another coach wouldn't work which is why I think the GM should do his job at assembling the roster and let the coach work with the team on a day to day basis.

It was something that was bugging me for whatever reason so I had to get it off my mind. Hope everyone is well around here.

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02-28-2013, 10:07 AM
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It's not uncommon for a coach to have input, but you have to hope that at the end of the day, the scouts get the final say.

It's a little concerning when you consider some of the "favorites" Trotz has played over their heads, through his time in Nashville.

Joel Ward and Vernon Fiddler are good players, but they're not the sort you're looking to grab in the high rounds.

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02-28-2013, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc View Post
It's not uncommon for a coach to have input, but you have to hope that at the end of the day, the scouts get the final say.

It's a little concerning when you consider some of the "favorites" Trotz has played over their heads, through his time in Nashville.

Joel Ward and Vernon Fiddler are good players, but they're not the sort you're looking to grab in the high rounds.
and we didnt... those are the players we get after other teams have discarded them.

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02-28-2013, 10:36 AM
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edit: not opening that can of worms

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02-28-2013, 11:17 AM
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Considering Trotz's overall success and the fact that he's most likely not going anywhere for some time, I hope he has some input. I do disagree with some of his moves, but the proof is in the overall success.

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02-28-2013, 11:32 AM
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You draft players for the future. You don't draft based on current team needs. We have never truly been in a position to draft a player with the potential to step straight into the NHL. At the same time, you must include and seek the input of every member of your hockey operations department.

Fenton runs the draft along with Jeff Kealty. They organize all of the scouting reports and evaluations and whittle things down into a manageable list, but at some point when everyone's seen the video on a player and maybe even caught a game live on a player, when it comes down to ranking player A vs. player B for the long term, why wouldn't you ask for your NHL coaching staff's opinion of a player's long term prospects? They are the ones with experience molding the players and might have valuable insight on which player's make up better suits them towards long-term success at the NHL level.

Everyone's input is sought, some are weighed heavier than others especially based on that observers viewings of the player and any known bias (ie: European scout bashing a North American player who he's never seen live and vice versa). I would highly doubt that Trotz has never had a final say on a player selection over the course of a decade plus, but I would say that the number of times he's strongly influenced one of our picks is scarce when compared to the number of picks that we've made over the course of the franchise's existence.

At the start of the team, when Trotz didn't have a team to actually coach, he spent the season scouting both the NHL and AHL in search of players. Since then, that's been other people's job...

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02-28-2013, 02:00 PM
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triggrman
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We love to chest thump about how we build through the draft but do we really? We are one of maybe 3 teams that do not have a single draft pick from the last 3 drafts playing in the NHL right now.

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02-28-2013, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
We love to chest thump about how we build through the draft but do we really? We are one of maybe 3 teams that do not have a single draft pick from the last 3 drafts playing in the NHL right now.
They're too busy in Milwaukee and can't find the road to Nashville.

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02-28-2013, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by AtrickhayOrnqvistpay View Post
They're too busy in Milwaukee and can't find the road to Nashville.
Which is ridiculous, really. There's no reason to not call Watson and Beck up at the very least. At most of camps I've been too Beck was the best offensive prospect.

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02-28-2013, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
We love to chest thump about how we build through the draft but do we really? We are one of maybe 3 teams that do not have a single draft pick from the last 3 drafts playing in the NHL right now.
True, but our homegrown players:

Legwand, Borque, Wilson, Erat, Spaling, Blum, Ellis, Hornqvist, Josi, Klein, Weber, Rinne, Smith

Not ours:

Clune, Gill, Fisher, Gaustad, Yip, Mason, Kostitsyn, Hannan, Halischuk

We are very much a homegrown team, and we have several in the minors who could beat out the Yip's/Clunes of the world.

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02-28-2013, 03:21 PM
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Halischuk came up with the Devils. We traded Arnott for him

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02-28-2013, 03:33 PM
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Halischuk came up with the Devils. We traded Arnott for him
Truth! Mistake on my part.

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02-28-2013, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
We love to chest thump about how we build through the draft but do we really? We are one of maybe 3 teams that do not have a single draft pick from the last 3 drafts playing in the NHL right now.
That's kind of an odd year you picked. We didn't have many picks that year, it's looking like that was weak draft class overall, and it's way too early to make real judgments for 2011 and 2012. Not to mention we could easily end up with 6 NHLers from the 2009 draft alone.

As far as not having many call ups, well you could say we've just been "lucky" with injuries lately and haven't needed to call anyone up. Plus, the shortened season will probably delay a few players' cup of coffee.

In comparison to other teams around the league, we definitely build through the draft. Just obviously severely lacking the top end forward variety. Whenever a thread pops up on the main boards about teams' drafting history, our depth is always among the top. Even our 1st round history is much better than we give credit, considering our usual draft spot.

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02-28-2013, 05:16 PM
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There aren't many players from the last three drafts playing anywhere in the NHL at the moment. Through the beginning of this season, only 7 guys from the '11 and '12 drafts had played any time in the NHL. I'd have to look to see who's been added to that list, but I doubt it's been many.

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02-28-2013, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhouk View Post
There aren't many players from the last three drafts playing anywhere in the NHL at the moment. Through the beginning of this season, only 7 guys from the '11 and '12 drafts had played any time in the NHL. I'd have to look to see who's been added to that list, but I doubt it's been many.
27 teams have had at least 1 player drafted in the last 3 drafts play in the NHL.

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02-28-2013, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Paranoid Android View Post
That's kind of an odd year you picked. We didn't have many picks that year, it's looking like that was weak draft class overall, and it's way too early to make real judgments for 2011 and 2012. Not to mention we could easily end up with 6 NHLers from the 2009 draft alone.

As far as not having many call ups, well you could say we've just been "lucky" with injuries lately and haven't needed to call anyone up. Plus, the shortened season will probably delay a few players' cup of coffee.

In comparison to other teams around the league, we definitely build through the draft. Just obviously severely lacking the top end forward variety. Whenever a thread pops up on the main boards about teams' drafting history, our depth is always among the top. Even our 1st round history is much better than we give credit, considering our usual draft spot.
How about in the last dozen drafts we've not developed a single all-star on offense. Think about how many players we'ved drafted and not a single one is a true offensive talent. Radulov might have been, but his head wasn't right.

Poile sucks at drafting offensive players period.

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02-28-2013, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhouk View Post
There aren't many players from the last three drafts playing anywhere in the NHL at the moment. Through the beginning of this season, only 7 guys from the '11 and '12 drafts had played any time in the NHL. I'd have to look to see who's been added to that list, but I doubt it's been many.
Hmm let's see

From '12

Nail Yakupov
Alex Galchenyuk
Mikhail Grigorenko
Scott Laughton
Stefan Matteau

from '11 draft

Ryan Nugent-Hopkins
Gabriel Landeskog
Jonathan Huberdeau
Adam Larsson
Mika Zibanejad
Sean Couturier
Sven Baertschi
J.T. Miller
Rickard Rakell
Brandon Saad
Andrew Shaw

Have all played or are playing in the NHL....

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02-28-2013, 06:03 PM
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We have drafted 69 forwards, of those 69 we've had 1 that has scored 200 goals and he didn't even has his best seasons with us.

Again Poile is horrible at drafting offense or Trotz is horrible at developing the players Poile drafts.

Still haven't heard a legit argument to not calling up Beck and/or Watson.

This team is the weakest up front in the NHL.

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02-28-2013, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
This team is the weakest up front in the NHL.
I believe that's my cue...

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02-28-2013, 07:31 PM
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27 teams have had at least 1 player drafted in the last 3 drafts play in the NHL.
How many of them actually made an impact? How many of them were taken in the top 10 of the draft?

Furthermore, why is this even remotely significant? It's not a race to get your prospects to the NHL. 3 years is a pretty standard development time frame to me.

I do agree Beck should get a taste of the NHL some time this year. He's not going to rejuvenate our offense though.

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02-28-2013, 07:40 PM
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This team is the weakest up front in the NHL.
Debatable between us, Columbus, Florida and Phoenix.

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02-28-2013, 07:45 PM
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Again Poile is horrible at drafting offense or Trotz is horrible at developing the players Poile drafts.
Poile has a 30 year track record of not drafting quality forwards. Trotz has 15 years of not developing them... a deadly combination that leads to the offensive ineptitude that we're subjected to on a far too frequent basis.

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