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1952 redwings

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Old
12-17-2011, 06:30 PM
  #26
pappyline
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I still say the war had to have had some impact for several years. Maybe NHL players were protected from combat but they still came back to the NHL older & slower in many cases. But what about the guys who went in at the start who had the potential to be NHLers. How many of those never came back or came back disabled. How many came back 4-5 years later & gave up on hockey.

Impossible to measure but it certainly had some impact. The NHL was all Canadian & Canada was in WW II from the start. I am sure a lot of young Hockey playing Canadians went to war and never resumed their hockey careers.WWII and the NHL were recruiting from the same age pool.


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Old
12-18-2011, 08:58 AM
  #27
Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Thats a great comparison and analogy in both general & specific terms. The league was in transition post WW2 as it was post 79 WHA Amalgamation combined with Expansion.

Montreal managed to protect many of its assets through the war years under Gorman who in combination with Selke followed by Pollack created themselves an almost unbroken 30 year Dynasty.

Toronto under Smythe with Selke in the 30's laying the rails for the great Leafs teams of the late 40's & 60's. Detroit of the early 50's put together through some shrewd/lucky amateur C form/sponsorship signings & trades that wasnt sustainable.

Like the Islanders, they sort of fell between the cracks and as Bossy & Potvin have bemoaned, not given the same due respect as those that came before & immediately thereafter. One cant help but wonder in Detroits case that had the players been treated more fairly by the 06 teams and the attempted creation of the Union not been so acrimonious what might have been for the Wings... If you watch interviews of say a Ted Lindsay or one of the vets from that period who when asked about it, reply with a great deal of winsomeness, almost a kind of regret, sadness.
I do remember Lindsay saying once before that if Adams hadn't torn that team apart that the Habs would never have had a dynasty. See, I'm not so sure about that one. When the Wings won in 1955 they traded Sawchuk to make room for a young Hall. Not much of a downgrade, although they never won again. Lindsay, Howe, Kelly, Delvecchio, Pronovost, etc. were still on the team. But this culminated in the Habs hitting their stride in 1956. Beliveau started to explode and combined they had Geoffrion, Moore, a still very good Richard and a rookie in Henri Richard. Not to mention Harvey at the point and Plante in net. As well as incredible depth.

The Red Wings had Lindsay until after 1957 and didn't win those two Cups. Then he's traded and Sawchuk comes back for the 1957-'58 season. By then no one was beating the Habs, and with a Hall of Fame goalie in Hall to replace Sawchuk and practically the same Wings team in 1956 and 1957 they didn't win at all. So I think that story gets overblown a bit. The Habs of the 1950s were coming, plain and simple. It was only a matter of time. Even in 1954 and 1955 they took Detroit to Game 7 of the final, losing in overtime in 1954 and losing in 1955 without the Rocket. So they were on their tail at that time.

The Red Wings were excellent in the early to mid 1950s, but I just don't think they would have sustained it the rest of the decade. Montreal was arriving. However, that doesn't mean Jack Adams should have made those trades in the first place (Sawchuk, Lindsay) because it's foolish to make trades with core players on dynasty teams (right Peter Pocklington?). I'd rather have seen them play it out and see how far they could have gotten with the Habs in 1956 with their 1955 team.

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12-18-2011, 02:38 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
The Red Wings were excellent in the early to mid 1950s, but I just don't think they would have sustained it the rest of the decade. Montreal was arriving. However, that doesn't mean Jack Adams should have made those trades in the first place (Sawchuk, Lindsay) because it's foolish to make trades with core players on dynasty teams (right Peter Pocklington?). I'd rather have seen them play it out and see how far they could have gotten with the Habs in 1956 with their 1955 team.
Ya, no question it wouldve been pretty hard to stop an ascending Montreal, however, Ive often wondered about it as the damage inflicted to specifically team leader Ted Lindsay by Adams through this period pretty much crippled the team, creating all kinds of problems in the dressing room. Rifts that in some cases lasted for decades. The history books I dont think tell the whole story with respect to just exactly when talk of a players union began, and I suspect Adams caught wind of it earlier than documented. Its a tough thing to figure out because the guy was beyond quixotic, manipulative, seemingly almost paranoiac, a control freak, sardonic, well Phil, just not a very nice nor honorable man whose job security was predicated on a "handshake" with the Norris clan year in year out?. Despite the Cups, Margeurite Norris couldnt stand the guy; and who knows what Bruce was thinking beyond his bartender?.

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12-18-2011, 06:12 PM
  #29
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Ya, no question it wouldve been pretty hard to stop an ascending Montreal, however, Ive often wondered about it as the damage inflicted to specifically team leader Ted Lindsay by Adams through this period pretty much crippled the team, creating all kinds of problems in the dressing room. Rifts that in some cases lasted for decades. The history books I dont think tell the whole story with respect to just exactly when talk of a players union began, and I suspect Adams caught wind of it earlier than documented. Its a tough thing to figure out because the guy was beyond quixotic, manipulative, seemingly almost paranoiac, a control freak, sardonic, well Phil, just not a very nice nor honorable man whose job security was predicated on a "handshake" with the Norris clan year in year out?. Despite the Cups, Margeurite Norris couldnt stand the guy; and who knows what Bruce was thinking beyond his bartender?.
Oh hey, no question, Adams was a jackass, maybe THE jackass of NHL history. The first rule of a dynasty is to take home whoever you brought to the dance. This is what the Isles did and they had 19 guys who played on all 4 Cup winners. So that was Adams' fault for even testing it. I'm just not sure even with Sawchuk they win in 1956 against Montreal though. And then Lindsay went afterwards and it was a downward spiral

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12-19-2011, 06:13 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Oh hey, no question, Adams was a jackass, maybe THE jackass of NHL history. The first rule of a dynasty is to take home whoever you brought to the dance. This is what the Isles did and they had 19 guys who played on all 4 Cup winners. So that was Adams' fault for even testing it. I'm just not sure even with Sawchuk they win in 1956 against Montreal though. And then Lindsay went afterwards and it was a downward spiral
They could probably won more without internal struggles that kept players from keeping their heads in the game. You are right though, Habs was a terrific team in the 50's and they might still have taken Red Wings in 56 and onwards.

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12-19-2011, 06:47 PM
  #31
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There's a movie in Jimmy Orlando's life. Have heard a few extremely euphamised tales about fun'n'games at the El Morrocco from former Royals. Bundle him with Tony Demers for an unbeatable composite character.

The El Morroco later became The Mustache, where I misspent a small but significant part of my youth. Remember getting ticket stubs with El Morroco written on them and not having a clue what that was all about other than the new owner was obviously a little tight with the cash. In retrospect (always 20/20) I guess I should have hung on to a few.

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12-19-2011, 09:08 PM
  #32
Killion
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There's a movie in Jimmy Orlando's life.... Remember getting ticket stubs with El Morroco written on them and not having a clue what that was all about other than the new owner was obviously a little tight with the cash. In retrospect (always 20/20) I guess I should have hung on to a few.
You probably used those stubs as rolling papers if you hung out at Moustache Monsieur "justsomeguy". Huh?. Sass Jordan backed by essentially The Box... Crackers. The Maples' (Mapes). Viva la Vida Loca. Pointe Claire, West Island Crazy's..... and ya, Jimmy Orlando mustve been quite the piece of work, many from the old Montreal hockey, bar & club scenes blending together in a riot of kaleidoscope colors & characters.

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02-28-2013, 04:28 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I do remember Lindsay saying once before that if Adams hadn't torn that team apart that the Habs would never have had a dynasty. See, I'm not so sure about that one. When the Wings won in 1955 they traded Sawchuk to make room for a young Hall. Not much of a downgrade, although they never won again. Lindsay, Howe, Kelly, Delvecchio, Pronovost, etc. were still on the team. But this culminated in the Habs hitting their stride in 1956. Beliveau started to explode and combined they had Geoffrion, Moore, a still very good Richard and a rookie in Henri Richard. Not to mention Harvey at the point and Plante in net. As well as incredible depth.

The Red Wings had Lindsay until after 1957 and didn't win those two Cups. Then he's traded and Sawchuk comes back for the 1957-'58 season. By then no one was beating the Habs, and with a Hall of Fame goalie in Hall to replace Sawchuk and practically the same Wings team in 1956 and 1957 they didn't win at all. So I think that story gets overblown a bit. The Habs of the 1950s were coming, plain and simple. It was only a matter of time. Even in 1954 and 1955 they took Detroit to Game 7 of the final, losing in overtime in 1954 and losing in 1955 without the Rocket. So they were on their tail at that time.

The Red Wings were excellent in the early to mid 1950s, but I just don't think they would have sustained it the rest of the decade. Montreal was arriving. However, that doesn't mean Jack Adams should have made those trades in the first place (Sawchuk, Lindsay) because it's foolish to make trades with core players on dynasty teams (right Peter Pocklington?). I'd rather have seen them play it out and see how far they could have gotten with the Habs in 1956 with their 1955 team.
Lindsay has said that he thinks the Red Wings would have won another 7 Cups if not for Adams ripping the team apart. I don't know if that's the case, because I agree that the Habs were coming regardless.

In the same interview (not sure where I saw it) Lindsay claims that Montreal offered Harvey to Detroit for Sawchuk in 1955...that would've changed things quite a bit. Does anyone know if that trade was actually offered? Or is Lindsay "mis-remembering"?

In any event, had Adams managed the team properly, he could have gotten a decent return for Sawchuk. Hall, Lindsay and Kelly would never have been shipped away for nothing, and Bucyk never would have been given away to get Sawchuk back. I'd like to think the Red Wings knock off Montreal at least once in the late 50's, and probably manage to win 2 or 3 times in the 60's...they were close enough in 61 and 64, if they still have Hall and Kelly, that probably puts them over the top in those series.

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