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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread V

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02-28-2013, 02:47 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Perhaps not , my point was to say that Amonte's reputation as one dimensional fast scorer is erroneous and I think I provided an overwhelming amount of evidance to back up his all-around play.

He'll fit perfectly with Klukay and Luce on the right side , Amonte did it all.
It's a good line to check a team with a dominant RW with Amonte being able to score on the counterattack. If you run into a dominant LW, it might not work so well.

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Oh and also , half of his career? He came in Chicago at 23 years and retired at 36 , not exactly half of his career if I can still count.
This would be relevant if Amonte magically became a great defensive player the instant he was traded.

You didn't date the articles that you presented, but clicking on a few, it seems the quotes about his good defensive play start in 1999.

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02-28-2013, 02:47 PM
  #252
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Please, android chrome browser, don’t let this post be full of stars when I hit send…
*
fail.

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-********* I have most often used 6 seasons as a peak period for comparison (usually best 6, not best consecutive 6). TDMM would vouch for this as he’s been in many lower drafts with me as well. Preferring 7 vs. preferring 6 is not a huge difference in philosophy, and using 6 over 7 would make me less longevity friendly.
-********* I agree that extra greatness beyond a generally accepted peak length (5, 6, 7 years) is worth something, but less.
I actually did not know that. Shows how much I pay attention to what other people are actually saying. You and my wife could start a support group.

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-********* I definitely do not reward a player as much for their 12th best season as for their first, but I know you were just being hyperbolic for effect.
I'm glad we understand each other. I think I did use the word "seems", for what it's worth.

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When analyzing players’ offense in my last ATD, I actually plugged their top-10 percentage scores into a formula that weighted them (I think 20, 18, 17, 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10) and then divided by 146 to yield a weighted average that favours peak. Not as heavily as some might favour it, but it still did. So if I were to claim a low peak, high longevity guy to be better than a higher peak player, he’d have to really win the longevity battle.
That's a very interesting method.

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-********* I am closer to you on the whole “what does it mean to have a good 8th-12th best season?” question than you probably realize. I think that this type of extended peak does somewhat increase a player’s offensive potential in an ATD season, but not significantly. I think that more importantly, it manifests itself in the form of greater game-to-game consistency.
That's almost exactly how I look at it. I consider not only non-peak longevity (for me, seasons 8+), but also season-to-season consistency (how many ups and downs did a player have during his peak? I favor guys whose peaks all came in consecutive seasons) and durability in the equation when I try to determine just how consistent I expect an individual's game-to-game ATD performance to be. And I do value the results of this little calculus. As much parity as there is in the ATD, any team that wins the Cup can be sure to face at least one game 7 along the way. Knowing that you're going to get the best out of any given player is a valuable quality (obviously actual playoff record comes into play here, as well).

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02-28-2013, 02:52 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
It's a good line to check a team with a dominant RW with Amonte being able to score on the counterattack. If you run into a dominant LW, it might not work so well.



This would be relevant if Amonte magically became a great defensive player the instant he was traded.

You didn't date the articles that you presented, but clicking on a few, it seems the quotes about his good defensive play start in 1999.
Why would Amonte have a hard time against a tough LW more than any other player? Because he's small? Doesn't seem to have stopped him from hitting and working hard every shift , and with his speed he will be hard to play against , always on his player , even if his size would be unspectacular to a Gordie Howe type of player.

The first two quotes are from 92 and 93 , where it seems his ''grinding'' contribution was going unnoticed in the media but some guys like Messier took note of them.

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02-28-2013, 02:56 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Why would Amonte have a hard time against a tough LW more than any other player? Because he's small? Doesn't seem to have stopped him from hitting and working hard every shift , and with his speed he will be hard to play against , always on his player , even if his size would be unspectacular to a Gordie Howe type of player.

The first two quotes are from 92 and 93 , where it seems his ''grinding'' contribution was going unnoticed in the media but some guys like Messier took note of them.
You really want someone like Amonte shadowing someone like Bobby Hull or Ted Lindsay?

Let's be reality here. He's apparently a pretty good defensive player, but he was never a great one.

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02-28-2013, 02:58 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You really want someone like Amonte shadowing someone like Bobby Hull or Ted Lindsay?

Let's be reality here.
In fact , Amonte is probably a good choice to shadow Bobby Hull , since he is one of the fastest skater out there.

Lindsay is the second best LW and a very physical one , and that's not to say I will necessarily put my 3rd line against the other team's 1st line , my 1st line is more than capable of handling power vs power situation.

Since Mark has Lindsay , I would put my 1st line against his and put my 3rd against the Conacher line with Klukay and Luce shadowing Savard-Conacher (that's just an example).

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02-28-2013, 02:59 PM
  #256
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I just checked and Amonte doesn't appear to have gotten a single vote for the Selke in his life, for what that's worth.

He did finish 4th, 4th, and 5th in All Star voting in a deep era for RWs, which is nice.

If you want to use him against Bobby Hull (who was fast and strong), go for it.

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02-28-2013, 03:03 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I just checked and Amonte doesn't appear to have gotten a single vote for the Selke in his life, for what that's worth.

He did finish 4th, 4th, and 5th in All Star voting in a deep era for RWs, which is nice.

If you want to use him against Bobby Hull (who was fast and strong), go for it.
The fact that you have to use an extreme situation like facing Bobby Hull to try to downplay the overall competency of my 3rd line speaks volume in my mind.

You only face a Bobby Hull one time , and if you do he'll hurt you anyway , so thank god I have a pretty good defense and goalie and happen to have offensive power on my own (though not on the Hull level but whatever).There's many ways to win hockey games.

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02-28-2013, 03:05 PM
  #258
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This is news to me that Amonte is any kind of credible defensive forward.

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02-28-2013, 03:06 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This would be relevant if Amonte magically became a great defensive player the instant he was traded.

You didn't date the articles that you presented, but clicking on a few, it seems the quotes about his good defensive play start in 1999.
Looks like 1996-97 is the first reference to Amonte as a strong all-around player, judging by the date given in the page tab when I open that first LCS hockey link. He definitely wasn't as a Ranger, but he was young then. Yeah...that was it. They mention him ending up with a +35 in that link, which corresponds to his 96-97 stats.

I've used LCS Hockey before as a resource, and they are often a bit flowery in their descriptions of players, but it looks like Amonte was legitimately a strong all-around player starting in 1996-97 and going on until whenever he lost his speed, not sure when that was, I guess in Phoenix. He actually looks a lot like Danny Gare on steroids (and with way better hair).

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02-28-2013, 03:06 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
This is news to me that Amonte is any kind of credible defensive forward.
Just read my post in the last page or the Amonte bio I made earlier , the information is there.

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02-28-2013, 03:07 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
This is news to me that Amonte is any kind of credible defensive forward.
How often did you watch Chicago when he was there, though? That was back in the Bill Wirtz dark ages for the team, so I can't say I saw much of them at all.

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02-28-2013, 03:11 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Looks like 1996-97 is the first reference to Amonte as a strong all-around player, judging by the date given in the page tab when I open that first LCS hockey link. He definitely wasn't as a Ranger, but he was young then. Yeah...that was it. They mention him ending up with a +35 in that link, which corresponds to his 96-97 stats.

I've used LCS Hockey before as a resource, and they are often a bit flowery in their descriptions of players, but it looks like Amonte was legitimately a strong all-around player starting in 1996-97 and going on until whenever he lost his speed, not sure when that was, I guess in Phoenix. He actually looks a lot like Danny Gare on steroids (and with way better hair).
The 92 and 93 quotes did say that he had an unrecognized grinding game though , so while Amonte clearly got better with time , his all-around game might have been under the radar early on as well to some degree.

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02-28-2013, 03:17 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
The 92 and 93 quotes did say that he had an unrecognized grinding game though , so while Amonte clearly got better with time , his all-around game might have been under the radar early on as well to some degree.
Well, it was certainly under the radar to Rangers management, who traded him away for a pair of grinders in 1994 who fit the team their new coach wanted to build.

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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Looks like 1996-97 is the first reference to Amonte as a strong all-around player, judging by the date given in the page tab when I open that first LCS hockey link. He definitely wasn't as a Ranger, but he was young then. Yeah...that was it. They mention him ending up with a +35 in that link, which corresponds to his 96-97 stats.

I've used LCS Hockey before as a resource, and they are often a bit flowery in their descriptions of players, but it looks like Amonte was legitimately a strong all-around player starting in 1996-97 and going on until whenever he lost his speed, not sure when that was, I guess in Phoenix. He actually looks a lot like Danny Gare on steroids (and with way better hair).
Gare is an obvious comparison, since Amonte will be playing with Don Luce this draft apparently. Amonte seems more consistent, Gare seems like he has better peak seasons. Amonte is a lot faster, Gare a lot tougher - Gare's tougness seems like it was a big reason he fit so well with Ramsay and Luce.

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02-28-2013, 03:18 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Well, it was certainly under the radar to Rangers management, who traded him away for a pair of grinders in 1994 who fit the team their new coach wanted to build.
Here's some info on this from the bio.

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If Mike Keenan had his way, Tony Amonte probably wouldn't be among the list of favorites to take the crown. Keenan, you see, never saw eye to eye with Amonte when he was coach of the New York Rangers and Amonte was an up-and-coming star for the Blueshirts. Amonte scored 35 goals in his rookie season in New York in 1991-92, then 33 more the next season.

But then Keenan took over the helm in the Big Apple and Amonte's numbers were reduced to 16 goals in 72 games during the 1993-94 season. Keenan dealt Amonte near the trade deadline to Chicago in exchange for Stephane Matteau and Brian Noonan. Keenan and the Rangers went on to win the Stanley Cup that year, while to this day Amonte continues to fight for his chance to meet Lord Stanley.

"(Keenan) definitely didn't like me, and I didn't like him and I don't think I still do," Amonte said of his former coach. "But it was business at the time, and that's what I felt. He didn't feel that I was going to be any help to the (team), and the way I felt at the time, he had me believing that I wasn't going to be any help to the club. So I think it was a good career change for me, and I was thrilled just to get a chance just to come to Chicago.

"You know, coming out of New York, you don't know where you're going to go. But getting a chance to come to Chicago, I'm as happy as could be. But I was a little disappointed not staying for the Stanley Cup run, but that's life. And that's what Mike Keenan says: `Life is not fair.' "


Last edited by Jafar: 02-28-2013 at 03:25 PM.
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02-28-2013, 03:20 PM
  #265
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Amonte could help out defensively but was never anything special. He had a peak at the end of the 90s defensively where he was a regular PK player for the Hawks but I think that was because of lack of options.

I'd say in his peak he was an average defensive player or responsible but nothing I would use in an all-time sense.

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02-28-2013, 03:21 PM
  #266
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How often did you watch Chicago when he was there, though? That was back in the Bill Wirtz dark ages for the team, so I can't say I saw much of them at all.
I remember watching him at his peak in 98-99- 99-00 quite a bit, great speed and hands and lethal goalscorer, but I just can't ever remember hearing about him being a 5 tool player like Reen in claiming.

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02-28-2013, 03:22 PM
  #267
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
The 92 and 93 quotes did say that he had an unrecognized grinding game though , so while Amonte clearly got better with time , his all-around game might have been under the radar early on as well to some degree.
Amonte was aggressive in New York, and skated around like crazy, but he just didn't skate in the right direction all that often in his own zone. As far as grinding goes, from what I saw of him, Amonte was strong for his size and willing, but wasn't exactly Glenn Anderson along the boards (to stick with the comparison). Sounds like he became a good defender in open ice, though - learned to use that speed and anticipation to cut off passes and such. That's some pretty nice research you put together. Makes me even more p!ssed that the Rangers traded him for Thing 1 and Thing 2.

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02-28-2013, 03:23 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by monster_bertuzzi View Post
I remember watching him at his peak in 98-99- 99-00 quite a bit, great speed and hands and lethal goalscorer, but I just can't ever remember hearing about him being a 5 tool player like Reen in claiming.
I am not merely claiming it , I provided a lot of objective informations on Amonte's intangibles.

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02-28-2013, 03:26 PM
  #269
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I am not merely claiming it , I provided a lot of objective informations on Amonte's intangibles.
Yes, I've already said in the past that quote's from teammates or homer newspaper writers shouldn't be taken too seriously.

I think your third line is awesome anyways, for whatever it's worth.

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02-28-2013, 03:27 PM
  #270
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Yes, I've already said in the past that quote's from teammates or homer newspaper writers shouldn't be taken too seriously.

I think your third line is awesome anyways, for whatever it's worth.
So I should stop listening to you when you talk about the Sedins? lol

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02-28-2013, 03:32 PM
  #271
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Gare is an obvious comparison, since Amonte will be playing with Don Luce this draft apparently. Amonte seems more consistent, Gare seems like he has better peak seasons. Amonte is a lot faster, Gare a lot tougher - Gare's tougness seems like it was a big reason he fit so well with Ramsay and Luce.
Gare's scoring peak is nowhere close to Amonte's. If it was, he'd have landed in my comparative study:

Danny Gare VsX:
78, 71, 63, 61, 58, 51

Tony Amonte VsX:
89, 80, 73, 71, 70, 67, 59, 53, 51, 50

And that's before you compare linemates. Amonte's were Zhamnov and Daze most of the time in Chicago, right? Those guys aren't even MLD players. There is definitely a wide offensive gap. Amonte definitely had some jam to him, even as a Ranger. But I'm no expert on Danny Gare, so it's hard for me to compare them in that respect.

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02-28-2013, 03:34 PM
  #272
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It could be argued that Ramsay and Luce managed 60 points a year because they had a legit frontline talent like Gare on their line. He was the best offensive player of that trio, anyway.

edit: Depending on how many teams....Zhamnov would make a fine 2nd line C in the minor league draft.

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02-28-2013, 03:35 PM
  #273
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It could be argued that Ramsay and Luce managed 60 points a year because they had a legit frontline talent like Gare on their line. He was the best offensive player of that trio, anyway.
Don Luce had decent offensive abilities on his own and never saw any PP time.This is the role he was asked to play.I disagree with that hypothesis.

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02-28-2013, 03:38 PM
  #274
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Gare's scoring peak is nowhere close to Amonte's. If it was, he'd have landed in my comparative study:

Danny Gare VsX:
78, 71, 63, 61, 58, 51

Tony Amonte VsX:
89, 80, 73, 71, 70, 67, 59, 53, 51, 50

And that's before you compare linemates. Amonte's were Zhamnov and Daze most of the time in Chicago, right? Those guys aren't even MLD players. There is definitely a wide offensive gap. Amonte definitely had some jam to him, even as a Ranger. But I'm no expert on Danny Gare, so it's hard for me to compare them in that respect.
What the crap, I guess Gare was just a really unbalanced offensive player?

50 goals, 23 assists
56 goals, 33 assists
46 goals, 39 assists

were his three best seasons.

Edit: His 50 goal, 23 assist 1975-76 is particularly strange since he was playing full time with Ramsay and Luce then and rarely played on the powerplay. Normally when you see such an extreme ratio, you think the guy played with a great playmaking center, but he clearly wasn't playing much, if at all, with Perreault then.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-28-2013 at 03:45 PM.
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02-28-2013, 03:39 PM
  #275
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Amonte could help out defensively but was never anything special. He had a peak at the end of the 90s defensively where he was a regular PK player for the Hawks but I think that was because of lack of options.

I'd say in his peak he was an average defensive player or responsible but nothing I would use in an all-time sense.
I would suggest you read the Amonte bio I made earlier , I think at this point with the amount of evidence I provided there's more on-paper information of Amonte being a good defensive player than many players that are considered two-way players in the ATD.

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