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Phoenix LXXII: Send in the Clowns

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02-28-2013, 06:05 PM
  #576
aqib
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Even if the CoG has no chance of ever winning any litigation against the NHL, the optics and the press coverage of doing so would be interesting to say the least. Having a former NHL city sue the NHL for $50M... this might make other cities think twice about getting into bed with the NHL. And I wonder how long Bettman would last in the NHL had to pay that ( or part of it at least ) back
Press coverage? Where do we see stories about this? In Arizona papers and Canadian media. If this blows up and the team relos to QC, the NHL won't care about what the Arizona papers have to say and Canadian media will celebrate being back to 8 teams.

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02-28-2013, 06:08 PM
  #577
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what I find strange is that the cost of the team has remained constant at 170 mill for years now. I have a hard time believing that the revenues brought in after year 1 (plus the subsidies) covered losses to the penny. With the fluctuation of revenues (from deep playoff run last year) , interest, legal fees how is it that the purchase price has remained exactly 170 mill? Even this season...the team will undoubtedly lose some money...lets say 10 mill on the safe side.... is the league going to add that to the cost of the team? or just eat the losses?

If its true that Gary Bettman promised the owners he would get their money back then how is it that after 4 years the losses remain exactly 170 mill total? If the speculation is false and Bettman made no such promise than I dont see why the league cant lower the price to at least 140 mill.

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02-28-2013, 06:30 PM
  #578
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So it isn't following the money as much as it's sitting there watching it collect dust.
Yes. It is. So thats that. As the monies sitting there untouched 8mnths after the NHL could have easily withdrawn it, then I guess they dont need it, broke even on the 2011-12 season.... why then havent they long since notified Glendale, instructed the bank to return the funds to the City?

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what I find strange is.... If its true that Gary Bettman promised the owners he would get their money back then how is it that after 4 years the losses remain exactly 170 mill total?...
Yes, he did tell the BOG's precisely that, purchased the team & has been covering costs through a line of credit. Like you, I too and many more are confused, find it confounding how if after 4yrs with the losses reported the price tags remained static at $170M? Doesnt. Make. Any. Sense. Impossible. Based on what we know, the price should be by now around $240M & counting. Deduct the COG's $25M, were at $215M & change. Add the $20M sitting there untouched, $195M. And thats being generous, conservative. We just dont know, likely never will. NHL's not obligated to tell, can & usually do make up whatever story they'd like to sell. One of lifes mysteries... how do they get the Caramel in a Caramel Bar?

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02-28-2013, 06:31 PM
  #579
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Press coverage? Where do we see stories about this? In Arizona papers and Canadian media. If this blows up and the team relos to QC, the NHL won't care about what the Arizona papers have to say and Canadian media will celebrate being back to 8 teams.
Press coverage...

All we seem to get any more are twits...er, I mean tweets...

Paul Giblin ‏@PaulGiblinAriz #Glendale Mayor Jerry Weiers told me that none of the four potential #Coyotes bidders have “put anything on the table.”

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02-28-2013, 07:10 PM
  #580
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Got to love Joyce!

1) there is no sense of urgency. Yeah its been dragging for almost 4 years this mayor has been in charge for 5 weeks. Why would he jump through hoops.

2) she said that the mayor speaks with a forked tongue, "he says he wants the Coyotes here but he doesn't want to hurt the taxpayers and you can't have it both ways" so you admit keeping the Coyotes hurts the tax payers.

3) She talks about her hit count on her page. I wonder if she looked at the IP addresses. I'm sure a lot of her hits are from Canada.
I thought she rickrolled Canadians, doesn't she?

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02-28-2013, 07:23 PM
  #581
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If the team was $90 million + that GJ lease? Line out the door. Step right up for your subsidized risk-free shot at owning an NHL team. But it's not priced like that, and no lease will ever be that good again.
Based on Sherwood's comments, I could see an offer of $13MM annual AMF for up to 12-years. That's pretty similar to the annual amount in the expired JIG lease. But I doubt it will inspire much interest.

I also think there is an strong argument that the Coyotes were essentially free to anyone who wanted to operate them in Glendale. I defer to the numbers guys for all the NPV corrects and such. I also acknowledge that the contracts would not be specifically structured in this manner, but if you sketch it out:

- The NHL cultivated a $300MM+ fund transfer from Glendale to JIG.
- JIG/NHL would likely be able to structure those funds as payment for the franchise.
- JIG would then only need the $100MM or so revolver to operate the team and arena. They couldn't get it done.

When the BOH forum suggests that the NHL will not budge on the sale price, that may be true. But it is only part of the story. The NHL didn't just hang an absurd price tag on the team. The league created a mechanism to offset the entire inflated price, provided someone was willing to pay to operate the team in Glendale. There were no takers.

The core problem, from the leagues perspective, continues to be that many southern franchises are essentially debt riddled disasters. Quality investors have very little interest in these opportunities, none in most cases. There isn't a line out the door for any of these franchises. As Gary Bettman wrote back when they were shopping the Coyotes pre-bankruptcy, before any of this $170MM stuff "no one seems excited about a team losing 40mm."

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02-28-2013, 07:57 PM
  #582
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Based on Sherwood's comments, I could see an offer of $13MM annual AMF for up to 12-years. That's pretty similar to the annual amount in the expired JIG lease. But I doubt it will inspire much interest.

I also think there is an strong argument that the Coyotes were essentially free to anyone who wanted to operate them in Glendale. I defer to the numbers guys for all the NPV corrects and such. I also acknowledge that the contracts would not be specifically structured in this manner, but if you sketch it out:

- The NHL cultivated a $300MM+ fund transfer from Glendale to JIG.
- JIG/NHL would likely be able to structure those funds as payment for the franchise.
- JIG would then only need the $100MM or so revolver to operate the team and arena. They couldn't get it done.

When the BOH forum suggests that the NHL will not budge on the sale price, that may be true. But it is only part of the story. The NHL didn't just hang an absurd price tag on the team. The league created a mechanism to offset the entire inflated price, provided someone was willing to pay to operate the team in Glendale. There were no takers.

The core problem, from the leagues perspective, continues to be that many southern franchises are essentially debt riddled disasters. Quality investors have very little interest in these opportunities, none in most cases. There isn't a line out the door for any of these franchises. As Gary Bettman wrote back when they were shopping the Coyotes pre-bankruptcy, before any of this $170MM stuff "no one seems excited about a team losing 40mm."
CF.... I might have misinterpreted it, but I thought in his interview Sherwood hinted dropping the time to 12 years from 20 would make it more palatable with investors who didn't want to lock themselves into such a long agreement (with no out clause).??

btw.... Sherwood was scheduled to appear on Roc and Manuch's show today but it's been rescheduled for tomorrow.

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02-28-2013, 07:59 PM
  #583
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The core problem, from the leagues perspective, continues to be that many southern franchises are essentially debt riddled disasters. Quality investors have very little interest in these opportunities, none in most cases. There isn't a line out the door for any of these franchises.
True enough, yet under astute ownership, can be accomplished. Heres a list of Carolinas' most recent investors along with a timeline & list on others.

Announced 11/3/2011:
*Michael Kahn, Empire Distributors Inc. (also owner of Charlotte Checkers)
*Matthew Szulik, Red Hat
*Capitol Broadcasting Company
*Temple Sloan Jr., General Parts International, Trail Creek Investments, Highwoods Properties
*Clancy & Theys Construction
*Jim Rutherford
*Abel and Barbara Zalcberg, OFM, Inc.
*Frederick J. Whitney and Timothy M. Whitney, Whitney Wealth Management
Unidentified Investor
Unidentified Investor

Announced 9/12/12:
*Ron Francis
*Eliza Kraft Olander and Brian McHenry
*Ron de Lange, Tekelec
Unidentified Investor
Unidentified Investor

Announced 2/28/2013:
*Mark Rein, Epic Games
Chuck Hammel, Pitt Ohio
Unidentified Investor
Unidentified Investor

*Based in North Carolina

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Old
02-28-2013, 08:00 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Press coverage...

All we seem to get any more are twits...er, I mean tweets...

Paul Giblin ‏@PaulGiblinAriz #Glendale Mayor Jerry Weiers told me that none of the four potential #Coyotes bidders have “put anything on the table.”
There's more going on... you just like to pick and choose what fits your agenda.

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02-28-2013, 08:02 PM
  #585
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I thought she rickrolled Canadians, doesn't she?
That was another site. It was some fan site. I doubt clark is that sophisticated.

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02-28-2013, 08:03 PM
  #586
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I thought she rickrolled Canadians, doesn't she?
As far as I know..... nope.

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02-28-2013, 08:04 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Press coverage...

All we seem to get any more are twits...er, I mean tweets...

Paul Giblin ‏@PaulGiblinAriz #Glendale Mayor Jerry Weiers told me that none of the four potential #Coyotes bidders have “put anything on the table.”
You look at the most recent franchise moves in any sport that have generated outrage eventually the fans outside those cities forget about it. The Sonics move generated a lot of outrage, very few outside of Seattle talk about it, even with OKC's run to the finals last year. If the Coyotes move from Phoenix to QC no hockey fans south of the border will think about it very long.

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02-28-2013, 08:11 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by Llama19 View Post
Press coverage...

All we seem to get any more are twits...er, I mean tweets...

Paul Giblin ‏@PaulGiblinAriz #Glendale Mayor Jerry Weiers told me that none of the four potential #Coyotes bidders have “put anything on the table.”
Potential - definition:1. Capable of being but not yet in existence
2. Having possibility, capability, or power.

Been hearing alot of that since Jamison's AMF gave up the ghost and we'll continue to til this one is done......if ever

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02-28-2013, 08:18 PM
  #589
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CF.... I might have misinterpreted it, but I thought in his interview Sherwood hinted dropping the time to 12 years from 20 would make it more palatable with investors who didn't want to lock themselves into such a long agreement (with no out clause).??

btw.... Sherwood was scheduled to appear on Roc and Manuch's show today but it's been rescheduled for tomorrow.
I could have misinterpreted as well. I thought Sherwood was indicating that, from a city perspective, a 5-year or 10-year deal with a buy out provision was not agreeable - but he would support a 12-year deal at AMF $13MM per year. I believe he then said that he had spoken to Jamison who indicated that a 12-year deal could be palatable for investors.

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02-28-2013, 09:02 PM
  #590
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I could have misinterpreted as well. I thought Sherwood was indicating that, from a city perspective, a 5-year or 10-year deal with a buy out provision was not agreeable - but he would support a 12-year deal at AMF $13MM per year. I believe he then said that he had spoken to Jamison who indicated that a 12-year deal could be palatable for investors.
Antonyms: bad, deficient, inferior, lousy, poor, punk, substandard, unacceptable, wanting, wretched; mediocre, middling, second-class, second-rate

I don't see any owner buying where the Coyotes will stay in Glendale...

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02-28-2013, 09:07 PM
  #591
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Paul Giblin ‏@PaulGiblinAriz #Glendale's Weiers mentions the other council members again. He's gotten heat from the other six for going solo. That's the end.

Is he goin' rogue on us taxpayers, too?

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02-28-2013, 09:14 PM
  #592
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Paul Giblin ‏@PaulGiblinAriz #Glendale's Weiers is finished. He said almost nothing about the #Coyotes and nothing about the city's budget.

Did anyone really expect him to address the two biggest elephants in the room?

The third elephant isn't being talked about...

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02-28-2013, 09:33 PM
  #593
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CF.... I might have misinterpreted it, but I thought in his interview Sherwood hinted dropping the time to 12 years from 20 would make it more palatable with investors who didn't want to lock themselves into such a long agreement (with no out clause).??

btw.... Sherwood was scheduled to appear on Roc and Manuch's show today but it's been rescheduled for tomorrow.
Nope.... I guess not now.

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Roc from Roc&Manuch @rocandmanuch
Thanks Gary Sherwood! No announcement by Weires at address related to Yotes. BS. No need to come on our show tomorrow. #glendale.

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02-28-2013, 09:52 PM
  #594
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Paul Giblin ‏@PaulGiblinAriz #Glendale's Weiers is finished. He said almost nothing about the #Coyotes and nothing about the city's budget.

Did anyone really expect him to address the two biggest elephants in the room?

The third elephant isn't being talked about...
Im not following this, lost... who is this Giblin guy, and what does he mean "he's finished"? Same thing as R&M in another post? That he's unwilling to discuss the Yotes' situation altogether publicly or what?

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02-28-2013, 09:53 PM
  #595
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Im not following this, lost... who is this Giblin guy, and what does he mean "he's finished"? Same thing as R&M in another post? That he's unwilling to discuss the Yotes' situation altogether publicly or what?
He's the new beat writer for the AZ Repub covering Glendale and the Coyotes....

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02-28-2013, 09:58 PM
  #596
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Im not following this, lost... who is this Giblin guy, and what does he mean "he's finished"? Same thing as R&M in another post? That he's unwilling to discuss the Yotes' situation altogether publicly or what?
Mayor Weiers finished with his State of the City address...yeah, I know, some state we're in...

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02-28-2013, 10:10 PM
  #597
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I could have misinterpreted as well. I thought Sherwood was indicating that, from a city perspective, a 5-year or 10-year deal with a buy out provision was not agreeable - but he would support a 12-year deal at AMF $13MM per year. I believe he then said that he had spoken to Jamison who indicated that a 12-year deal could be palatable for investors.
Consensus thinking in these parts is 5-yrs (or 5-yr out clause) means the team would be moving. Given the environment the franchise has been put into the past 4 years, it would take around 10 years to build a fan base up to where it needs to be.

Length of time also plays into locking in corporate sponsorships (and/or suite sales). So I guess the longer deal you could get the better if you want to keep the team in Glendale.

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02-28-2013, 10:15 PM
  #598
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Nope.... I guess not now.
I know.... I responded to Roc and suggested he go through with the interview anyway and put Sherwood to task for telling him that Weiers would have something to say about the team and arena tonight, but he said he's already killed it.



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02-28-2013, 10:30 PM
  #599
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He's the new beat writer for the AZ Repub covering Glendale and the Coyotes....
Ohh... Ok.... thanks.

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03-01-2013, 12:47 AM
  #600
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I could have misinterpreted as well. I thought Sherwood was indicating that, from a city perspective, a 5-year or 10-year deal with a buy out provision was not agreeable - but he would support a 12-year deal at AMF $13MM per year. I believe he then said that he had spoken to Jamison who indicated that a 12-year deal could be palatable for investors.
Not sure that I would be taking advice from Jamison regarding potential investors. He was the guy who negotiated the last lease agreement, and that didn't work out too well with "investors". I expect that investors are looking for a much lower purchase price.

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