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Old
02-28-2013, 09:27 PM
  #1
GrandPapillon
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Not going to be a popular opinion but

Shattenkirk is the best defenseman on the team this year. I know what Petro's upside is, and when he is playing well, he is the better player. However, Shattenkirk has been more consistent, shown more improvement, and made smarter plays all year. Tired of Petro getting a fairly free pass.

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02-28-2013, 09:39 PM
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Shattenkirk, Jackman and Polak have been our best blue-liners for the last month-ish. Pietrangelo has really not looked great lately. Over-extending his abilities right now, maybe? Or maybe it's just that he sometimes gets paired with someone awful.

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02-28-2013, 09:42 PM
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Petro has played average at best this year. He can't carry anyone right now.

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02-28-2013, 10:43 PM
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MattyMo35
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You made a thread to state the obvious that has been mentioned countless times already?

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02-28-2013, 10:54 PM
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bleedblue1223
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It is a popular opinion because everyone else shares it.

The difference is, some people don't have trash players on the internet because it does nothing. If you are trying to get people to just talk about Petro playing bad, well it's simply not going to happen. He's not getting a free pass, but there's no point in bashing him either.

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02-28-2013, 11:02 PM
  #6
GrandPapillon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
It is a popular opinion because everyone else shares it.

The difference is, some people don't have trash players on the internet because it does nothing. If you are trying to get people to just talk about Petro playing bad, well it's simply not going to happen. He's not getting a free pass, but there's no point in bashing him either.
And yet there are pages and pages of people wanting to trade Perron for perceived poor play. My point is simple. Both Shatty and Petro are RFAs this offseason. If you are Shattenkirk's agent why would you settle for significantly less money than Petro after outplaying him"?

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02-28-2013, 11:05 PM
  #7
bleedblue1223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
And yet there are pages and pages of people wanting to trade Perron for perceived poor play. My point is simple. Both Shatty and Petro are RFAs this offseason. If you are Shattenkirk's agent why would you settle for significantly less money than Petro after outplaying him"?
One short stretch does not mean anything. Pietrangelo has proved what he can do over multiple seasons. Shattenkirk is not on that level yet.

I find it interesting that you want to start exactly what you are upset against about Perron.

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02-28-2013, 11:17 PM
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GrandPapillon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
One short stretch does not mean anything. Pietrangelo has proved what he can do over multiple seasons. Shattenkirk is not on that level yet.

I find it interesting that you want to start exactly what you are upset against about Perron.
I don't see the connection. I am not clamoring to trade Petro. My point is this. I feel that we have kind of accepted that as RFAs that Petro will get a big money 6or 7 mil dollar deal and Shattenkirk will have to settle for 4 million or so. I don't see that. I don't see Petro being that much better than Shattenkirk, and I believe it is entirely possible that Shattenkirk will be the better defenseman when all is said and done. Bottomline, I have never seen Shattenkirk take a step back in development. Petro has gone backwards this season. I just hope the Blues can afford to keep both. I think 5 million for each is fair.

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02-28-2013, 11:17 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
Shattenkirk is the best defenseman on the team this year. I know what Petro's upside is, and when he is playing well, he is the better player. However, Shattenkirk has been more consistent, shown more improvement, and made smarter plays all year. Tired of Petro getting a fairly free pass.
Petro ain't gettin' no free passes 'round these parts. What are you talking about?

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02-28-2013, 11:31 PM
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Yep Shattenkirk has been much better. He looks fantastic. One of the few players that showed up tonight.

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02-28-2013, 11:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
And yet there are pages and pages of people wanting to trade Perron for perceived poor play. My point is simple. Both Shatty and Petro are RFAs this offseason. If you are Shattenkirk's agent why would you settle for significantly less money than Petro after outplaying him"?

There are several reasons to consider trading Perron that have nothing to do with his play this year...

in no particular order:
1) saving money in the future so we can resign everyone
2) the return he would get would be a pretty good one
3) we have extra wings (when there are not multiple injuries)
4) we need help at defense and center, why would we trade from those positions?

The players the Blues need are top quality players they are not going to be had for leftovers. So who would you rather trade?

Oshie? Probably the most popular Blue, if you look at shop.nhl.com everything has Oshie on it
Andy Mac? He is not worth much anymore, is past his prime, spends a lot of time on the IR and is a UFA
Tarasenko? While he has a lot of potential potential is not worth as much as proven ability and unless it is a huge trade than tank will not be involved
Schwartz? not really a lot of value there he has what 3 goals in 20ish games, he will be a good player in the future but only a rebuilding team is going to give quality for him and even then Shwartz would not be the center piece going back
Stewart? after last season his value has considerably dropped and if a team really wanted him they could offer sheet him

So your left with Perron the only wing really worth trading. A lot of the trade Perron talk is because he is the most valuable trade piece the Blues have available to them. If we had several guys with a lot of trade value then we would be good enough where wouldnt be looking at making a trade.

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03-01-2013, 12:46 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
Shattenkirk is the best defenseman on the team this year. I know what Petro's upside is, and when he is playing well, he is the better player. However, Shattenkirk has been more consistent, shown more improvement, and made smarter plays all year. Tired of Petro getting a fairly free pass.

This 'Alex Pietrangelo is playing bad' nonsense has gone too far...

Kevin Shattenkirk is paired with Barret Jackman, one of the best defensive defensemen in the NHL. Jackman(who happens to be leading the league in defensive GVT) is aptly suited to cover for Shattenkirk's weaknesses.

Alex Pietrangelo has had three different defense partners through 19 games, none of which have been an ideal fit for him. Despite that, Pietrangelo still faces tougher competition(QoC) and is matched with weaker teammates(QoT). He's the most valuable defenseman on the team, and one of the most(if not the most) valuable defensmen in the NHL.

Shattenkirk is having a great season, but the OP lacks context. Pietrangelo isn't getting a free pass... because calling him out for his play, at this point, would be ridiculous.

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03-01-2013, 01:03 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
This 'Alex Pietrangelo is playing bad' nonsense has gone too far...

Kevin Shattenkirk is paired with Barret Jackman, one of the best defensive defensemen in the NHL. Jackman(who happens to be leading the league in defensive GVT) is aptly suited to cover for Shattenkirk's weaknesses.

Alex Pietrangelo has had three different defense partners through 19 games, none of which have been an ideal fit for him. Despite that, Pietrangelo still faces tougher competition(QoC) and is matched with weaker teammates(QoT). He's the most valuable defenseman on the team, and one of the most(if not the most) valuable defensmen in the NHL.

Shattenkirk is having a great season, but the OP lacks context. Pietrangelo isn't getting a free pass... because calling him out for his play, at this point, would be ridiculous.

1. Jackman is a fine 2nd pairing defenseman. Calling him one of the best defensive defensemen in the NHL??? Really? Granted, Shattenkirk has a fitting complement for his skill set, he isn't exactly paired with Pronger in his prime.

2. Pietrangelo isn't simply failing to cover for his partner's mistakes. He is making plenty of his own as well. Bad passes, mishandles with the puck, poor positioning. Some may be attributed to being paired with not-the-best partners. However, he was paired in his break-out season with Colaiacavo. Are the options we have this year that much worse than him?

3. Again, not saying we trade Petro, but I think it is time to reexamine the widely accepted belief that Pietrangelo is head and shoulders above Shattenkirk. I am seeing one player elevate his game and another backslide. Asking Shattenkirk to make 2 to 2.5 million dollars less than a player that he is fairly close in performance to and has outplayed thus far this season is unfair.

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03-01-2013, 02:27 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Grouch View Post
This 'Alex Pietrangelo is playing bad' nonsense has gone too far...

Kevin Shattenkirk is paired with Barret Jackman, one of the best defensive defensemen in the NHL. Jackman(who happens to be leading the league in defensive GVT) is aptly suited to cover for Shattenkirk's weaknesses.

Alex Pietrangelo has had three different defense partners through 19 games, none of which have been an ideal fit for him. Despite that, Pietrangelo still faces tougher competition(QoC) and is matched with weaker teammates(QoT). He's the most valuable defenseman on the team, and one of the most(if not the most) valuable defensmen in the NHL.

Shattenkirk is having a great season, but the OP lacks context. Pietrangelo isn't getting a free pass... because calling him out for his play, at this point, would be ridiculous.
This.

Thank you very much.

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03-01-2013, 02:47 AM
  #15
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Yeah, that's a lot leverage; my boy has out played that guy for some twenty games pay him.

Luckily it doesn't work like that, but I do want 22 to be the best that he can be, but one thing I'll never understand is why anyone would care if his next contract has an extra half-million to a million per year.

I'm a Blues fan so I want what's best for the team not what's best for my favorite player’s wallet.

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03-01-2013, 02:59 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
1. Jackman is a fine 2nd pairing defenseman. Calling him one of the best defensive defensemen in the NHL??? Really? Granted, Shattenkirk has a fitting complement for his skill set, he isn't exactly paired with Pronger in his prime.

Barret Jackman is one of the top defensive defensemen in the league! Jackman has long been a player that elevates his defense partners play. Pronger comparison aside(not sure why you went there), he is certainly head and shoulders above Redden, Russell, and Cole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
2. Pietrangelo isn't simply failing to cover for his partner's mistakes. He is making plenty of his own as well. Bad passes, mishandles with the puck, poor positioning. Some may be attributed to being paired with not-the-best partners. However, he was paired in his break-out season with Colaiacavo. Are the options we have this year that much worse than him?

Bad passes, mishandles with the puck, and poor positioning are all things that happen to every top defensemen, in fact, it's usually the top defensemen that are among the league leaders in giveaways. If the team were playing better it wouldn't be as noticeable. The Blues' goal differential through 19 games last season was +7, this season it's -1. The save percentage was much higher as well. That, combined with higher expectations for this season, have Blues fans looking on with a more critical eye.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GrandPapillon View Post
3. Again, not saying we trade Petro, but I think it is time to reexamine the widely accepted belief that Pietrangelo is head and shoulders above Shattenkirk. I am seeing one player elevate his game and another backslide. Asking Shattenkirk to make 2 to 2.5 million dollars less than a player that he is fairly close in performance to and has outplayed thus far this season is unfair.

I agree that Shattenkirk has indeed elevated his game, as young defensemen often do. However, I disagree with your assessment that Pietrangelo's play can be considered a "backslide". Pietrangelo's defense hasn't been as good as it was last season, but the entire team is in the same position. Team defense has been mediocre, and the Blues have the worst save percentage in the league. By comparison Pietrangelo's offense is much improved(12 pts. vs. 7 pts. through 19gp last season), and he's played over a minute more per game this season than he did through 19 games played last season.

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03-01-2013, 07:35 AM
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Bravo Grouch. I only have one thing to add. There has never been a point where I thought Shatty's deal would be for anything less than 5mil avg over however long his contract is. I wouldn't be surprised to see it be higher then that now because of how great he is playing. Anyone who thought we could get Shatty for 4 mil is dreaming, like seriously dreaming.

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03-01-2013, 09:30 AM
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Agreed that Shatty has been our best dman but Petro hasnt looked as bad as he did the first few games of the season. And I dont think anybody expects Shatt to get 2-2.5 mil less than Petro either

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03-01-2013, 09:32 AM
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How much of the budget do you think the Blues will tie up on a second pairing dman?

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03-01-2013, 12:20 PM
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How much of the budget do you think the Blues will tie up on a second pairing dman?
However much the contract is for? It will be worth it.

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03-01-2013, 12:22 PM
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However much the contract is for? It will be worth it.
Not if it means they can not spend money to address other holes.

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03-01-2013, 12:24 PM
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Shattenkirk is the Blues #2 d-man. Just because he plays behind Pietrangelo doesn't make him a typical 2nd-pairing d-man.

I'm sorry he slept with your girlfriend.

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03-01-2013, 12:28 PM
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bleedblue1223
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Not if it means they can not spend money to address other holes.
Remember the hole we at at moving the puck before we had Shatty?

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03-01-2013, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by BlueDream View Post
Shattenkirk is the Blues #2 d-man. Just because he plays behind Pietrangelo doesn't make him a typical 2nd-pairing d-man.

I'm sorry he slept with your girlfriend.
He plays on the second pairing. The blues have a limited amount of money to spend on players. They have a greater need for a number 2 LHD, then shattenkirk. If we were a cap team there would be no worries, but we are not. I am sorry for mentioning your favorite player, but it is nothing personal. However the blues will not be successful by allocating at least 27% of thier budget on the right side of the defense while only allocating around 18% for the left side. they also still have a number one center hole and need to resign other RFAs. On this team shatty prices himself out at 4.5 - 5million. Maybe DA will sign him to smaller bridge deal, but who knows. Again since we are a budget team DA will have to make tough decisions.

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03-01-2013, 12:35 PM
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Remember the hole we at at moving the puck before we had Shatty?
Yes, and if we lose shatty it will hurt however there are second pairing defenseman they can be had for 3-4 million, which is in the blues price range for that position. This whole thing could be moot if he signs a bridge deal, which knowing DA is a good possibility.

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