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Gomez vs Kessel trade - Which one was worse?

View Poll Results: Which trade was worse?
Gomez 181 72.40%
Kessel 69 27.60%
Voters: 250. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:06 AM
  #101
DDs not undersized
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Let's try a mathematical way to evaluate that. I'll give a grade (out of 10) to each player, according to their contribution in the NHL since the trade and their projected future contribution :

Scott Gomez 3 (he was a key player for 1 year only)
Tom Pyatt 5 (good 3rd line player)
Michael Busto : 0
Habs total : 8 points

Ryan McDonagh : 9 (top pairing D for many years to come)
Chris Higgins : 6 (excellent 3rd line or average 2nd line player)
Doug Janik : 0,5 (AHL player mostly)
Pavel Valentenko : 0 (never made it to the NHL)
Rangers total : 15,5 points

15,5 - 8 = 7,5 points of difference in value

Tyler Seguin 10 (all star player for many years to come)
Dougie Hamilton 8 (potential top pairing D for many years to come)
Jared Knight : 2.5 (potential 2nd or 3rd line player but still far away from there)
Bruins total : 20.5

Phil Kessel 9 (pure goal scorer and 1st line player for many years to come)
Leafs total : 9

20,5 - 9 = 11,5 points of difference in value

So I'd argue that the Kessel trade is worse, but not by a lot. The difference maker might be Tom Pyatt, who's now a good player in the NHL. Sadly not for the Habs, which probably makes this trade looks worse from the Montreal POV.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:32 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Habs4ever View Post
Michael Camellari and Gionta agreed to sign with habs as a free agent right after Goimez trade was finalised, and they moved mainly because Gomez was coming to habs; and Camellari was later traded for 2nd round pick, Rene Bourque, Patrick Holland and we still have Gionta who can contribute or be traded away for more assets.

So, why no one remember the reason why this two other free agents signed that off season in Montreal?

It's sometimes good to look at the Big picture and this two acquisitions were very important for habs that off season.

So guys stop *****ing about losing Mcdo because we did get a better return if you know where to look.
So much fail in this post...

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03-01-2013, 01:34 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Partisan du CH View Post
Let's try a mathematical way to evaluate that. I'll give a grade (out of 10) to each player, according to their contribution in the NHL since the trade and their projected future contribution :

Scott Gomez 3 (he was a key player for 1 year only)
Tom Pyatt 5 (good 3rd line player)
Michael Busto : 0
Habs total : 8 points

Ryan McDonagh : 9 (top pairing D for many years to come)
Chris Higgins : 6 (excellent 3rd line or average 2nd line player)
Doug Janik : 0,5 (AHL player mostly)
Pavel Valentenko : 0 (never made it to the NHL)
Rangers total : 15,5 points

15,5 - 8 = 7,5 points of difference in value

Tyler Seguin 10 (all star player for many years to come)
Dougie Hamilton 8 (potential top pairing D for many years to come)
Jared Knight : 2.5 (potential 2nd or 3rd line player but still far away from there)
Bruins total : 20.5

Phil Kessel 9 (pure goal scorer and 1st line player for many years to come)
Leafs total : 9

20,5 - 9 = 11,5 points of difference in value

So I'd argue that the Kessel trade is worse, but not by a lot. The difference maker might be Tom Pyatt, who's now a good player in the NHL. Sadly not for the Habs, which probably makes this trade looks worse from the Montreal POV.
You really, really overrate Tom Pyatt.

2x Tom Pyatt is not better than one Phil Kessel. Not even slightly close. Same as Higgins being worth 6 to Kessel's 9. Gomez might very well be considered a negative.

Gomez contributed more to the Habs than Pyatt and has even been a better player over the last years.

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Old
03-01-2013, 02:27 AM
  #104
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Both trades were pretty loop-sided. However, the Gomez trade could be classified as the worst trade of the decade. The Rags were able to go after Gaborik by unloading Gomez, the bum. They also grabbed a future top 4 D, McDonaugh. The Rags got their hands on Higgins who had 20 goal seasons three years back to back except for his last season. The Habs aslo gave up on Valentenko, a very good prospect who currently plays for the Rags farm team. Fortunately, Higgins didn't work in New York. The Habs were depleted of their best trade assets.

No players coming back from this trade are currently playing for the Habs. Gomez was an overpaid bum and Pyatt was a decent third - fourth liner who played like a second liner. But, the Habs let him go. Michael Busto, as his name suggested had BUST written all over him. Gomez is still paid by the Habs to sit at home, although the Sharks gave him a job.

The Habs did go on to sign Cammy and Gionta but the team overpaid. By doing so, the Habs became the smallest team of the league. The Habs were extremely lucky to reach the Conference Final that year. Great goaltending and opportunistic goals brought them there. Philly run all over them. Cammy was traded away for another hefty contract, that of Bourque's. Patrick Holland looks like a good asset. Gionta is still with the team but his best years are behind him. I don't think Gionta can fetch a good return.

In Kessel, the Leafs got a player who can produce 80 points a season and is still with the team.


Last edited by DumFries: 03-01-2013 at 02:41 AM.
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Old
03-01-2013, 02:31 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingKostitsyn View Post
You really, really overrate Tom Pyatt.

2x Tom Pyatt is not better than one Phil Kessel. Not even slightly close. Same as Higgins being worth 6 to Kessel's 9. Gomez might very well be considered a negative.

Gomez contributed more to the Habs than Pyatt and has even been a better player over the last years.
Pyatt has 9 points in 20 games this year and is very effective on the PK. He's young and still improving. He's definitely a better player than Gomez was last year.

Of course, Gomez contributed more to the Habs than Pyatt, but that's because Gauthier was dumb enough to give away the only real asset he got from that trade. However, I think the goal here is to evaluate the Gomez and Kessel trades only, and not the moves that have been done after. Pyatt's value has to be considered as it is today, the same way we do for McDonagh or Higgins. But if you think I overate 2nd and 3rd line forwards, then you can remove 1 or 2 points to Pyatt and Higgins, but that won't change the final result.

Also, giving a negative value to Gomez would be stupid. Of course, the last few seasons were bad. But we should not forget that many trades in the NHL are done for short term purposes. And on the short term, the acquisition of Gomez was a success because he was a key contributor to the longest playoff run the Habs had in the last 2 decades.

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03-01-2013, 02:37 AM
  #106
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It really has to be the Gomez trade. As good as Seguin and Hamilton will be, the Leafs still got a bonafide star player out of it, one of the premier goal scorers in the league who has scored 4 straight 30 goal seasons and is only 25 years old. The Habs gave up a defenseman who is now top pairing and may become elite in a few years. I don't see any way you can slice it that MTL got the better trade, TO didn't plan on the picks being #2 and #8. It's not fair to say they traded Seguin and Hamilton for Kessel, they took a gamble on Kessel and thought he'd be the piece to put them into the playoffs. Burke was wrong, and it backfired, but they still got a star player out of it. MTL got a good 59 point season out of Gomez and then a whole bunch of cap trouble and headaches.

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03-01-2013, 02:48 AM
  #107
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Some Leafs fans would still probably consider the Kessel trade. A potential 40 goal scorer is a decent asset. If Hamilton turns into a perennial norris candidate that changes, though.

No Habs fan would do the Gomez trade over.

Though, to be fair, at the time the Gomez trade LOOKED slightly better. There wasn't much reason for the Kessel trade and Kessel isn't the type of player to build a team around. Bad decisions by Gainey led to the inevitability of needing to trade for a #1C, which had Gomez not regressed so sharply he was. An overpaid one, sure, but still a #1C. McDonagh was a solid prospect but I don't think many saw him being as good as he is. Higgins was thought to be the major asset being given up, but clearly he over-performed while he wore the CH.

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03-01-2013, 02:48 AM
  #108
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Kessel is a skilled player, with near-elite scoring ability, blazing speed and very good offensive vision- easily a first line winger on most teams.

And he's only 25.

Toronto gave up decent quality in order to get him but its a win-win trade imo, more for Boston maybe on the longterm, still Toronto shouldn't be ashamed to get a player of Kessel's calibre. Kessel and Seguin straight-up is a wash. What tips the trade in favour of Boston is Hamilton.

Burke's MO at the time was to accumulate sufficient amount of talent and Kessel was the first piece. He added another young talented players during his reign( Van Riemsdyk, Lupul, Kadri, Frattin, Phaneuf)

Gomez was a declining player with only speed on his side, at that point, and we gave up a good 3rd liner (Higgins) and legit top 4 D(McDonagh). It was a typical Gainey/Gauthier era move- always a step behind the events, being reactive, mediocre in trades and always building the team around average veteran players from other teams.

The answer should be obvious for anyone to see.


Last edited by Johnny Budwick: 03-01-2013 at 02:58 AM.
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Old
03-01-2013, 10:02 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Drebin View Post
Ive always said the Gomez trade was worse.

Kessel and Seguin cancel eachother out. So Toronto essentially lost D. Hamilton for nothing. Montreal lost McDo.

Right now, and likely in the future, McDo > Hamilton. Plus we got a boat anchor in Gomez that we had to buy out.

We lost the better player, and got the worse asset back.
I don't see how Kessel and Seguin cancel each other out. How many here would trade Seguin straight up for Kessel.

As for McDonagh and Hamilton it's a toss up right now. They both have sky high potential. McDonagh has shown more in the NHL but is older and been in the league longer.

We may have gotten the worst asset back but we didn't give up the best player. It comes down to would you rather lose a dollar and get nothing, or lose 2 dollars and get 1 back.

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Old
03-01-2013, 11:11 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I don't see how Kessel and Seguin cancel each other out. How many here would trade Seguin straight up for Kessel.
I wouldn't but if it happened I wouldn't call it a rip-off. And certainly Kessel could turn out to be the better player.

Seguin has a higher ceiling and I think he'll wind up being better but that's not a sure thing. Kessel is better than he's being given credit for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
As for McDonagh and Hamilton it's a toss up right now. They both have sky high potential. McDonagh has shown more in the NHL but is older and been in the league longer.

We may have gotten the worst asset back but we didn't give up the best player. It comes down to would you rather lose a dollar and get nothing, or lose 2 dollars and get 1 back
The best player in those deals could actually turn out to be Kessel. I don't think it will be but it's entirely possible. The guy has averaged 34 goals a season over the last four years. That's nothing to sneeze at. And he's done it without a center helping him out.

It's a horrible trade for sure but at least the Leafs got something back. We didn't.


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Old
03-01-2013, 11:27 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
The 82 points is irrelevant since the picks happened during his 55 and 64 point seasons. Kessel wasn't the only reason they finished as bad as they did, probably wasn't even the biggest. But people didn't predict a 29th place finish in part because Kessel was expected to be better than he was.
That's Burke's fault for thinking cause of his teams great pre season campain they were ready to compete. Acquiring Kessel wasn't the problem, the problem is he didn't do anything else besides that and should have surrounded him a lot better

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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
We gave up a 2nd/3rd liner who was liklely going to be gone in a couple of years for an overpaid 2nd liner who was sent packing after a few years. It's basically a wash. It cost Molson money but the Habs nothing. We still went hard after UFAs like Brad Richards so clearly we had the go ahead to bury Gomez if need be so he didn't prevent us from aquiring anyone.

Toronto gave up a guy you can build around for a good to great complementary player. By the way comparing Kessels points to Seguin is not fair, you're comparing a guy whose was 18-19 to someone in their early-mid 20s. If you compare their first 2 years Kessel had 29 and 37 points. Seguin has produced 22 and 67.
Toonto gave up picks and didn't think they would finish that low, I didn't expect it either to be honest. Again it was a gamble and they did get a great player in Kessel but the problem was that besides getting him Burke did nothing else to improve the rest of the team, maybe the Lupul trade but i'm not even sure he expected that production out of him when he acquired him and at the time they even talked about Toronto just taking on a salary dump to get Gardiner


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
I don't see how Kessel and Seguin cancel each other out. How many here would trade Seguin straight up for Kessel.

As for McDonagh and Hamilton it's a toss up right now. They both have sky high potential. McDonagh has shown more in the NHL but is older and been in the league longer.

We may have gotten the worst asset back but we didn't give up the best player. It comes down to would you rather lose a dollar and get nothing, or lose 2 dollars and get 1 back.
Right now Kessel is a much better player and it's not that close. Inverse both players teams and see what happens. Seguin hasn't even been a factor in any Bruins games so far this year and even if Kessel is struggling a little i'd still rather him at this point

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03-01-2013, 11:44 AM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post


Right now Kessel is a much better player and it's not that close. Inverse both players teams and see what happens. Seguin hasn't even been a factor in any Bruins games so far this year and even if Kessel is struggling a little i'd still rather him at this point
He toasted us in that 2-1 loss in two shifts. 12 points in 17 games and a +13.

I'd rather have yet another centerman with elite skillz than a effective, but one-dimensional winger who hadn't posted a PPG season until Lupul came to town.

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03-01-2013, 12:03 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by DumFries View Post
Both trades were pretty loop-sided. However, the Gomez trade could be classified as the worst trade of the decade. The Rags were able to go after Gaborik by unloading Gomez, the bum. They also grabbed a future top 4 D, McDonaugh. The Rags got their hands on Higgins who had 20 goal seasons three years back to back except for his last season. The Habs aslo gave up on Valentenko, a very good prospect who currently plays for the Rags farm team. Fortunately, Higgins didn't work in New York. The Habs were depleted of their best trade assets.

No players coming back from this trade are currently playing for the Habs. Gomez was an overpaid bum and Pyatt was a decent third - fourth liner who played like a second liner. But, the Habs let him go. Michael Busto, as his name suggested had BUST written all over him. Gomez is still paid by the Habs to sit at home, although the Sharks gave him a job.

The Habs did go on to sign Cammy and Gionta but the team overpaid. By doing so, the Habs became the smallest team of the league. The Habs were extremely lucky to reach the Conference Final that year. Great goaltending and opportunistic goals brought them there. Philly run all over them. Cammy was traded away for another hefty contract, that of Bourque's. Patrick Holland looks like a good asset. Gionta is still with the team but his best years are behind him. I don't think Gionta can fetch a good return.

In Kessel, the Leafs got a player who can produce 80 points a season and is still with the team.
If Gionta and Cammy came here because of Gomez (and let's face it, it was the cash that got them here) then that's all the more reason why it was a fail for us. It kept us mediocre and kept us from rebuilding. Plus we're still stuck with Gionta.

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Old
03-01-2013, 12:06 PM
  #114
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To be fair, now that he no longer is with us, Gainey proved to be very useful: Ryder and a 3rd for Cole was a solid trade for us.

Gainey

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03-01-2013, 12:09 PM
  #115
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Habs trade is worst at least the leafs got Kessel, right now the only thing we have is our dick in our hands.

Higgins and Mcdo would simply make the habs top 5 in the league, that trade is at the roy level and probably worst.

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03-01-2013, 12:23 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
Hamilton and McDonagh are a wash so it comes down to which is worse

Higgins for Gomez

or

Seguin for Kessel

The Kessel deal is clearly worse. Especially if you factor into the results achieved by each team.

What's your point?

McDonagh was traded for Gomez and Hamilton for Kessel?

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03-01-2013, 12:28 PM
  #117
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I don't even know how this is a debate, as much as Brian Burke gave for Kessel he's still a 35 goal scorer and a 1st line player. Scott Gomez is barely a 4th liner anymore.

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03-01-2013, 12:35 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
Habs trade is worst at least the leafs got Kessel, right now the only thing we have is our dick in our hands.

Higgins and Mcdo would simply make the habs top 5 in the league, that trade is at the roy level and probably worst.
McDonagh is a good player, Higgins isn't that valuable. Higgins had some downtime before landing in Vancouver. We probably wouldn't have kept him because he really wasn't scoring much.

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03-01-2013, 12:49 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
That's Burke's fault for thinking cause of his teams great pre season campain they were ready to compete. Acquiring Kessel wasn't the problem, the problem is he didn't do anything else besides that and should have surrounded him a lot better

Toonto gave up picks and didn't think they would finish that low, I didn't expect it either to be honest. Again it was a gamble and they did get a great player in Kessel but the problem was that besides getting him Burke did nothing else to improve the rest of the team, maybe the Lupul trade but i'm not even sure he expected that production out of him when he acquired him and at the time they even talked about Toronto just taking on a salary dump to get Gardiner
Either we are looking at the trade in hindsight or we are not. You can't ignore who those picks turned into unless you also ignore Gomez's decline. If you want to treat Seguin and Hamilton as two mid 1st round picks, then you have to treat Gomez as a 10 year vet who averages 66 points a season and McDonagh as a mid first round pick whose development had hit a snag.


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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
Right now Kessel is a much better player and it's not that close. Inverse both players teams and see what happens. Seguin hasn't even been a factor in any Bruins games so far this year and even if Kessel is struggling a little i'd still rather him at this point
Kessel is at 0.72ppg, Seguin is at 0.7. Add to that Seguin plays a more demanding position, is much younger, and doesn't get the same quality of minutes and it's hard to claim Kessel is much better.

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03-01-2013, 12:50 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Prallchengher View Post
McDonagh is a good player, Higgins isn't that valuable. Higgins had some downtime before landing in Vancouver. We probably wouldn't have kept him because he really wasn't scoring much.
I used to think he would score 40 per season

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03-01-2013, 12:51 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
Habs trade is worst at least the leafs got Kessel, right now the only thing we have is our dick in our hands.

Higgins and Mcdo would simply make the habs top 5 in the league, that trade is at the roy level and probably worst.
We are currently tied for 2nd in the league

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03-01-2013, 12:54 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I wouldn't but if it happened I wouldn't call it a rip-off. And certainly Kessel could turn out to be the better player.

Seguin has a higher ceiling and I think he'll wind up being better but that's not a sure thing. Kessel is better than he's being given credit for.

The best player in those deals could actually turn out to be Kessel. I don't think it will be but it's entirely possible. The guy has averaged 34 goals a season over the last four years. That's nothing to sneeze at. And he's done it without a center helping him out.

It's a horrible trade for sure but at least the Leafs got something back. We didn't.
The leafs gave up more as well. What's the difference if we lose a dollar and get nothing or if we lose two dollars and get one dollar back. We are still net minus one dollar.

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03-01-2013, 01:12 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Sorinth View Post
The leafs gave up more as well. What's the difference if we lose a dollar and get nothing or if we lose two dollars and get one dollar back. We are still net minus one dollar.
The point is, we're giving Gomez dollars to play for another team while the Leafs are giving dollars to Kessel to play for them

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03-01-2013, 01:14 PM
  #124
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We lost McDo in the Gomez trade. That was basically it. We're talking about the future of the teams so really, Chris Higgins (although I liked him as a Hab) is irrelevant. Gomez is now gone, so basically we gave up some cash (in the recent buyout) and McDo.

In the Kessel trade, leafs lost Seguin and Hamilton (or whoever they would have chosen if not them). Not only that, but they lost them to a divisional rival (and in turn, maybe this consoles them, screwing us too). They got Kessel and you have to at least admit that he is a good player for them, including their future.

Overall, I'd say they lost the trade more than we did mostly cuz they traded to Boston. That's the tipping factor for me. That and a top 3F and top 2D is pretty huge (we're talking in the next 3-4 years for Hamilton). We lost a top4 D (that's how I view McDo, although I think he's terrific in that role).

If you really want to add a little spin - Gomez might have helped us get Galchenyuk.

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03-01-2013, 01:47 PM
  #125
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The leafs gave up more as well. What's the difference if we lose a dollar and get nothing or if we lose two dollars and get one dollar back. We are still net minus one dollar.
Because we lost McD for nothing. They at least got a return... And while I didn't like the trade for Toronto I can at least sort of see why Burke did it. He got a 21 year old player who had some talent. He was at least looking towards the future.

I still have no idea why we went after Gomez nor why we paid a premium for him.... didn't make any sense at all.
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We lost McDo in the Gomez trade. That was basically it. We're talking about the future of the teams so really, Chris Higgins (although I liked him as a Hab) is irrelevant. Gomez is now gone, so basically we gave up some cash (in the recent buyout) and McDo.

In the Kessel trade, leafs lost Seguin and Hamilton (or whoever they would have chosen if not them). Not only that, but they lost them to a divisional rival (and in turn, maybe this consoles them, screwing us too). They got Kessel and you have to at least admit that he is a good player for them, including their future.

Overall, I'd say they lost the trade more than we did mostly cuz they traded to Boston. That's the tipping factor for me. That and a top 3F and top 2D is pretty huge (we're talking in the next 3-4 years for Hamilton). We lost a top4 D (that's how I view McDo, although I think he's terrific in that role).

If you really want to add a little spin - Gomez might have helped us get Galchenyuk.
Gomez may have helped get us Galchenyuk but getting him and his buddies prevented us from rebuilding far sooner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bask View Post
I used to think he would score 40 per season
I thought he'd be a 40 goal man too. Man was I ever wrong on that guy...

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